Monday, November 01, 2010

MAP Scores on The Source?

I have a report that MAP scores are now on The Source. My kids don't take the MAP, so I can't check.

Can anyone confirm or refute?

49 comments:

jason said...

Yes. I was able to find the scores for both of my kids.

Hawk said...

Yup, they are on the source. Not that I am interested, or they are reliable. My kid went from the 16th percentile in math in spring 2009/10 to the 82nd percentile in math in fall 2009/10.

seattle citizen said...

Wow, Hawk, your student is really a fast learner!

curious said...

is the percentage comparing students in the district? state? all students who take MAP?

JaneAddamsKindergartenMom said...

My Jane Addams daughter's are up. The report include RIT and Percentile (with a way to open up and see the strand scores), but no data for school, district or state.

There is a link on the district site that includes National Average RIT scores by grade level at:
http://www.seattleschools.org/area/mapassess/index.dxml.

Maureen said...

My kid's scores are there. Does the "Show Strand Scores" toggle work for other people? It doesn't provide any more info when I click on it. So, my kid supposedly learned more over the summer than she did in school. I guess those You Tube videos are more educational than I thought!

Does anyone know how "growth" is measured? Our school's CSIP is now based on improving "growth" by 10%.

And will the school and class level data be published in some form (like the WASL/MSP)? It would be interesting (to me) to see the range, mean and variation of scores for each grade by school and for the district as a whole.

Lori said...

I posted this earlier today in the Open Thread before this thread existed,and I've included Helen's response too (hope she doesn't mind):

So, did everyone hear that MAP scores are now available on the Source? You can see the score as well as "subscores" in various categories (called strands).

What was interesting to me is that the subcategories listed for my child's 1st grade scores do not overlap with the subcategories for this year. Seems to suggest that the test is *different* based on grade level.

For example, last year for reading, there are strand scores for Phonological Awareness; Phonics; Concepts of Print; Vocabulary & Word Structure; Comprehension; and Writing

But this year, the strands are Word Recognition; Reading Comprehension; Know Text Components; Think Critical & Analyze; Read: Variety of Purpose

And, this difference in what is being tested seems to have a huge impact on scores. My daughter's supposed gain in knowledge over the summer is far greater than her gain all of last school year. In fact, her score is almost absurd for her age/grade. I've been generally supportive of MAP as an in instructional guide, but I'm rethinking it if something as simple as changing the test categories results in such different scores.

What are others seeing?


11/1/10 3:35 PM
hschinske said...

Lori, the first graders take the MAP for Primary Grades, which has different categories. There's also a MAP for grades 2 through 5 and one for grades 6 and up. I don't know which ones are used in which grades in elementary APP. The MAP for Primary Grades has a pretty low ceiling, so she can probably show a much higher grade-equivalent score on the 2-5 or the 6+, whichever they're using.

Anonymous said...

I was stunned by the inane sample test that my son's school sent home in advance of the MAP. Is this for real, I wondered?
The school suggested we 'practice' taking the test at home, as they did in several pre-test sessions at school. My son is a kindergartener.

For those who have opted out: How do you go about opting out of standardized tests?
What does your child do during 'prep' and test sessions?

--dubious

--

Anonymous said...

for the person who couldn't see the strand scores, try using firefox instead of IE... I was able to see them using firefox.

Maureen said...

Thanks Anonymous! Firefox worked.

Melissa Westbrook said...

I have asked - yet again - of Dr. Enfield to give me the opt-out information. So you may have to deal with your principal. But with the former WASL, they had to have somewhere for your child to be (not sitting in the office). I sent stuff for my child to be doing.

I think all you need to do is give a letter to the school saying you are opting your child out and to let you know what you might need to send with your child to do during testing.

Seattle Parent said...

The MAP "Strands" now works with Internet Explorer 8.
I contacted the Source tech support about it & they promptly wrote back that it worked fine on IE-7. That's the older version--- who would have guessed that we needed to hit the compatibility button for an older version of IE to make it work?
In any case, they fixed the issue very quickly and said it should now work for everyone (it opens up now on mine, at least).

Kparent said...

I don't get the results. My kindergartener had an excellent preschool education, was assessed as very bright by others, and though he does not yet know how to read, he has solid phonological awareness,advanced vocabulary and understanding of concepts. BUT - his percentile for reading is 18% while math is 90%. I'm very puzzled by the reading results and what kind of questions they would have asked kindergarteners to get that result.

CHmom said...

I have frustrations over Spectrum. I did apply this year for my current 1st Grader. She received over 85% on both tests, and will need to take the cognitive test of course (I'm pretty sure she'll do well on that). Trouble is, I know for a fact that the Spectrum program at her school is already full, so I doubt very much she'll get in next year for 2nd Grade.

Bird said...

Kparent,

I think it's hard to take too seriously the first results of a Kindergarten student on a computerized test.

Does your kid have much experience using computers?

There can be all sorts of reasons the results could be goofy.

That said, I don't think I'd expect a K student who isn't reading to score high on this test (at least not commesurate with your kid's math scores).

I'm sure your kid is smart and has a great vocabulary, and conceptual understanding but the reading portion of MAP isn't assessing these things. It's assessing their reading skills.

I woudn't sweat it much.

Anonymous said...

My K kid was not reading at the time of the MAP, and yet his score is 92%. How did that happen?

We did not apply for Spectrum this year. Is this something I should feel compelled to do next year, or only if he is actually doing work at or above his level?

Confused about the whole system.

JA K-8 Mom

Anonymous said...

Just wanted to add something I've been thinking about, but perhaps this is not the correct forum. If that's the case, I'm sure this will be deleted.

It's about Spectrum. I am encountering more kids their parents claim are "gifted" than a population is supposed to statistically contain. There seems to be an epidemic of giftedness among the Seattle children. I'm wondering if this is why the school district is firm w/ 85% MAP cut-offs this year...

And what is the definition of gifted anyway? I've only met a single child who really has impressed me, a 4yo who read at an adult level, played chess competitively, and was obviously precocious in his conversation & thinking processes. Otherwise, I'm wondering if most of the other kids who do well on standardized tests and are pushed into gifted curriculum are really just well-trained at tests & benefiting from early educational intervention (ie. preschool, parents who do drills or prep their kids early). And perhaps others just love to learn, even though their IQ's are more towards normal.

Obviously APP is a very advanced population, but is Spectrum really a "gifted" program? Or is just the continuation of early learning that parents initiated w/ their kid prior to the start of K? Was it created for the high-IQ population, or the smart-normal range of motivated kids?

Alternatively, I'm feeling the pressure of pushing my kid into Spectrum from other parents. Even at the K level, kids are now being differentiated b/twn Spectrum and typical curriculum. Am I a bad mother for not pushing my kid towards Spectrum or applying for CogAT? Even at the K level, is my kid going to miss the boat b/c other kids from K are now filling up the Spectrum spots? Have I doomed him to a sub-par education?

I need input from parents w/ older children in SPS, I think....

JA K-8 Mom

Patrick said...

I wouldn't put that much faith in MAP scores, especially not in just one MAP score. Scores seem to go up and down for no particular reason. Ask your teacher if your child should be in spectrum, the teacher will probably have a better idea from lots of in-class work and tests than a single test.

It's not surprising that the parents you happen to know will be somewhat similar, and gave their children a stable environment, attention, and mental stimulation, so lots of them are spectrum qualified. If the child can handle the accelerated work and doesn't end up overwhelmed or pressured to spend too much time in homework struggling to keep up it's a good thing... but students are not doomed to a life digging ditches just because they're not in spectrum in elementary school.

Melissa Westbrook said...

JA K-8, I will try to write a thread about your questions. I'm sure, as usual, it will generate all sorts of comments because boy, do parents and others come down on one side or the other.

But let's stick with MAP here.

CHMom said...

Spectrum is just a good program at our school. I don't necessarily think of it in the context of "gifted" just a strong program where the kids are really challenged. I'm in the 'might as well try to get my kid into the program' camp, especially as she did really well on the MAP and past school reports.

JaneAddamsKindergartenMom said...

One thing to think about with MAP scores or other test scores, you are FAR more likely to get a false negative (a lower score than anticipated) than a false positive (an artificially inflated score). Lots of things can happen to pull a student's score down (they got distracted, their neighbor was crying, etc.) Whereas, it is not likely at all that a student would guess correctly question after question to get a score higher than s/he should. My guess on the low reading score is that it may well be a false negative due to other factors.

Seattle-Ed2010 said...

Bird said... I'm sure your kid is smart and has a great vocabulary, and conceptual understanding but the reading portion of MAP isn't assessing these things. It's assessing their reading skills.

I've heard that kids in kindergarten are given headphones, and the MAP test is read to them, so I'm not clear how MAP tests the reading skills of these kids. Perhaps there are words on the screen they are expected to identify.

Whatever the case, I'm still troubled by the fact that apparently it's known that the MAP test is not very appropriate for K-2nd graders. SPS MAP administrators Brad Bernatek and Jessica DeBarros told some of us this earlier this year. Consequently, some districts do not administer the MAP to grade K-2.

Some of the comments here seem to support this known limitation of the MAP test for these young kids.

So why does SPS use it for them?

-- sue p.

Kparent said...

Bird, In response to "I'm sure your kid is smart and has a great vocabulary, and conceptual understanding but the reading portion of MAP isn't assessing these things. It's assessing their reading skills."

Actually, at the K level the questions were more directed at pre-reading skills e.g. sight word recognition, what sounds words make and what letters are missing (for letter recognition). These are all things my son mastered in his first year of preschool two years ago and his K teacher says he is good at. So, I'm inclined to think the test circumstances may have more to do with the results. It wasn't until about a week before the tests that I found out they would be on the computer and we introduced him to using a mouse. We always figured there would be plenty of time for computers later and focused on expedentiary learning, playing outside, etc. Still, 18th percentile is pretty low. That's maybe what I would expect from an ELL or someone with no preschool experience. But, what do I know, this is our first experience with it.

JW said...

Kparent -- This is why testing 5 year olds on computers a few weeks into Kindergarten is insane. Just think what a great review your son's teacher will get when she brings him from the 18th percentile to the 90th percentile in the spring!

Bird said...

My kid was in K last year and the message we got from the teachers and the principal is that a lot of kids struggled with just the mechanics of taking the MAP test.

I certainly know kids who did go to preschool and are not ELL and who scored very low on that first test. They did fine in their first year of school.

I don't think there is a lot of value in this K test. If your teacher says your kid is doing fine, that's far more useful information.

mirmac1 said...

MAP is a norm-referenced test so your child's performance is compared to a norm (or average)group across content areas. In MAP's case, the group is...other NWEA clients. In other words, students whose school district also acquired MAP through a no-bid contract.

BTW norm-referenced tests are not aligned to district curriculum; they do not identify how much an individual student has learned. Norm-referenced tests are also not designed to judge instructional quality. That doesn't stop the brainiacs downtown from misusing MAP for these purposes.

Diane said...

the k percentiles boggle me too.. my older kids score in 90's in MAP, the K child below 50 in both sections. i've talked to a few parents of likely Spectrum candidates (K level) that scored very low as well. so i'm wondering where these K's are that scored in the higher percentiles (not SPS? 1st grade?) and/or is that spectrum testing 85% bar going to be revised? now that my strand score functionality is working, it's interesting to note one of the sublevels for K was "algebra"??? i love that they are giving us all this data, but i'm not confident that it is 1) correct, 2) will ever be properly explained to me by my child's teacher. she has no explanation now, and says she is waiting for further instruction before discussion more (conference).

JAKindergartenMom said...

There is at least one K student who scored at the 99%ile for both scores - mine - but mine was also the last student in the room both days and has extremely high persistence on tasks for her age - and has been exposed to computer games at her previous preschool, so I'm sure those two things served her well in that environment. I have not yet met with her teacher to see if I can find out the ranges of scores in her class, but will try to get a sense at the parent conference (but that is still a couple of weeks off.)
I'm also guessing that her high scores are more highly reflective of the difficulty that other new K students had with the testing situation than indicative of my daughter's aptitudes (although obviously she's bright.)

Chris said...

JA K-8 mom: What does your kid think? Does he/she like school? Having fun or being bored? I guess it is a bit of a gamble because each year/each teacher can be different, but I always hesitate to fix something that ain't broken.

Bird said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bird said...

so i'm wondering where these K's are that scored in the higher percentiles (not SPS? 1st grade?) and/or is that spectrum testing 85% bar going to be revised

I doubt they are going to revise the 85% bar at least not this year.

I've spoken to lots of parents whose kids scored above the 85% mark on the K test. I don't think there is a shortage in the district.

I would be surprised if the district showed a weird skew to low scores, but, as far as I know, the district has never published the K scores.

Anyone know if the district is planning on publishing the MAP data in the new school report cards?

Anonymous said...

My daughter, who hasn't been exposed to computers or video games, scored 92nd percentile in math and 84th in reading. She got the letter in the mail scheduling her November testing. Several points to this comment: the 85th percentile must not be a hard line for further testing, not having computer experience might not negatively impact the scores, and as compared to her peers, my daugher seems average not gifted. She did comment that during the test if she didn't know an answer, she'd look at the kid's screen next to her. Little did she know that they might have had different questions. The proctor at our school also realized some of these kids had no idea how to use a mouse so she put a sticker on the right button to click after the second session.

WallingfordMom said...

I'm curious if anyone else has gotten a letter scheduling a testing date? We haven't gotten anything yet, but the MAP scores for my K kid would qualify.

And to the Anonymous poster, you should repost with a handle before your comment gets deleted.

JaneAddamsKindergartenMom said...

Got our test date in our home mail today for 11/16 during the regular school day.

Anonymous said...

Interesting. We have a K student as well. He's not reading, but went to a great preschool, knows his numbers and the alphabet, aces pattern worksheets, loves math, has a great vocabulary and remembers just about everything. He loves school and is happy to tell us each day what he's learning. According to his MAP scores, he's in the 1%.

He didn't use computers at home at all, but did a *bit* of computer games at preschool. Our older child is in APP. I don't want to push our K student in that direction if it's not the right fit for him (they are obviously two distinct people with individual traits, strengths and "areas for improvement" :)), but I was honestly surprised at the scores he got.

I suspect the format of the test may have contributed a bit--his K teacher did feel that we should nominate him for cognitive testing (albeit before the MAP tests were administered!) so I will touch base again and see what his teacher thinks about "appealing" the 85% cut-off, or just letting him continue to thrive in K, crack the literacy code over the course of the year and see if next year's fall scores tell a different story.

**AnotherKMom**

Bird said...

I have a couple of suggestions which may or may not be helpful when you are trying to figure out what you think might be an anomalous K Map score.

One, there is a "warm up" test online. I believe it's meant to show first timers how to mouse and click for the MAP. You could try sitting with your kid through this and see if they have the basic mechanics down for the test.

The other suggestion is to see if you can get the minutes your kid spent on the test.

Last spring our kid's result included this and it was very illumination. When my kid got a low score they also spent much less time on the test. When they did really well, they spent a crazy long time. If the time your kid spent on the test was super, super short then maybe your kid had some issues with the format or a low persistence for the tasks.

I know my Kindee told me they guessed on things that they could have easily figured out with a little effort on the first time they tried the MAP. They were worried about getting done quickly.

And just out of curiosity, if your kid got a really low score, was that reflected in all the reported "strands"? Or did your kid do ok in some and score low in others? I'm just curious how those subtests add up to the overall score. Does a student have to score low in all of them to be in the bottom percentiles or is just scoring really badly in a few enough?

There really isn't enough information for parents about the primary test. The strand scores are pretty meaningless if you don't know what sort of questions are involved in each category.

belgemon said...

My son scored a in the first percentile for math (1st grade). This is a kid who does addition and subtraction easily and yet MAP assesses him as numerically illiterate. I call BS.

Diane said...

thanks all for sharing K scores and tips (wish i knew about that practice test online back in Sept).

my older kids did not seem to need "ramp up" time (and 1 was just in 1st grade last yr) and have tested consistently, the K child I think will need more test-taking practice before i'll believe in her (low) scores. does anyone know where i can find more data crunching - what are the percentiles relative to her school, SPS, all MAP takers? what types of questions are within each strand? (again, "algebra" for K's?)

Bird said...

The regular MAP has a couple of docs with example questions for each category at various performance levels, but I don't think NWEA publishes similar information for the primary (K-2) test.

I did find this document that has some information.

Looks like it is a doc for teachers, and it's plucked from a google search, so I can't vouch for its validity.

It is interesting to see that things like antonyms and homonyms are covered and syllabification.

I asked my kid about the syllabification and they said they did get questions about that, but that they didn't know what a syllable is. I explained it. We'll see how much this affects their "phonics" score next time.

Anonymous said...

As an update to my earlier post, I was looking at my K's scores and the RIT National Averages for the 50th percentile and scratching my head as to how a 148 in reading and a 160 in math put him in the 1%.

Turns out he somehow got entered in the system as a SECOND grader, not a K student, and his teacher has been trying to get the correction made--which puts him at the 85th percentile for math and the 65th percentile for reading. Since these tests were done so early in the year, those seem much more realistic to me. I suspect his older sibling (now in APP) would have had very similar scores at this point in the year as a kindergartener.

He's very much a beginning reader right now, but I suspect once the literacy lightbulb gets lit later this year, he will be every bit the voracious reader his older sibling is.

Our K teacher has suggested that we call the AL office and describe the issue and ask that he be considered for the cognitive test. We'll probably do that just to help inform ourselves around possibilities for differentiation, but it seems like there may be a lot of "false negatives" with the MAP tests that don't truly reflect a child's capabilities--especially a kindergartener's capabilities!

**AnotherKMom**

Lori said...

Interesting, anotherKmom. I would also ask the AL office if this data entry error resulted in him starting with harder questions too. That is, if the system thought he was a second grader, did he get a 2nd grade version to begin with, then if he got things wrong, it got easier and easier until it was at the right level for him.

I don't know enough about the intricacies of the test, but I wonder how he would score if given the K version of the test, which might have started off with more appropriate questions. On the one hand, since it's an adaptive test, I guess it shouldn't matter, but could it? I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

The Dolphin said...

Spectrum looks like it's dying a quick and quiet death. The district tried hard to get it up to a consistent standard across all schools two years ago but resistance from parents and teachers has been strong. Dr Enfield has told my school, Lawton, that class grouping can be abandoned as the principal sees fit. My personal experience has been very positive with homogeneous grouping of advanced learners. Last year my son's 3rd grade class were together as a Spectrum class for the first time and they took off. Differentiation sounds nice but can any teacher handle 3+ levels in a class of 28? The kids working a grade level or more below need lots of help and so do hose working a grade or more above. Who is going to get help first? We are elitist if we want our kids to work hard and not goof off because they are bored. The theory is it hurts the other classes to take out the Spectrum kids but research shows the opposite. Getting the advanced learners kids out makes it possible for the other kids to shine and become the leaders in their class. This isn't tracking, nobody is being sent to vocational school. Advanced learners need to have their space like everyone else or they really do suffer. Check out the research, there is a ton of it. Contact Dr. Enfield, Chief Academic Officer and Dr. Bob Vaughn, head of Advanced Learning and let them know you want real Spectrum, i.e. self-contained classrooms. Look at the websites for the Spectrum elementary schools. Few even mention Spectrum and none explain how it delivered. Whittier has always gone with self-contained and they have recently, within the last few weeks, removed their explanation of their program and how they deal with the discomfort it causes some parents. Elitism is a paintbrush in Seattle to stomp on ideas you don't agree with and don't care to debate. Lawton is going to hash it out in the next month and our new principal is going to decide before schools tours in January. Stay tuned.

Ted said...

I was very surprised to see the same attitude that goes basically against Spectrum at Lawton: they cut the math hours in the Spectrum 3rd grade class (to balance the schedule of some other teacher!).
Unfortunately, to me, it looks more like: let's make sure we keep the kids at this lower level so everyone is happy as opposed to let's let them shine.

NorthParent said...

re: Spectrum. The principal can make a world of difference in these buildings.

Quite a few years ago when we were "school shopping" for kid #1, we visited many schools. Wedgwood had a terrible reputation for friction between Spectrum and regular classes, and it showed plainly even in the tours. Even though we would have easily placed into Spectrum, we opted out.

A few years later we went through some of the same process with kid #2. In the case of Wedgwood, same school, many of the same teachers, but new principal and the attitude was like night and day compared with the previous round. There was acknowledgment of the Spectrum program, and the kids were reasonably well served, but the attitude was gone. Most of the younger kids weren't even aware they were in a separate program at all. This time around, we opted in, and while no school is perfect, we did not regret our decision.

The problem is that when there's friction/jealousy among the families in the school it really messes things up for everyone, and leads to stupid solutions, like removing or diluting helpful programs like Spectrum.

The Dolphin said...

Well, the decision by the Lawton principal is that Spectrum will no longer be self-contained starting next year. I agree with Northparent that it is up to the principal to set the tone and communicate forcefully if the program is to succeed as intended- as a self-contained grouping. Dr. Vaughn tried to bring some facts to the table but in the end it seems that emotion has won out. The staff has been significantly against the self-contained model - not based on any performance numbers, but on the "fairness" issue.It's OK to excel in sports or music but in education it's elitist if we let those ready to move at a faster pace do so. I wish that teachers and staff would examine the research available and not rely on "perceptions". Teachers are not policy makers, they should not be the ones to run a school. I hope that the Spectrum discussion can get the airing it needs and the public can make an informed choice about their schools.

none1111 said...

Well, the decision by the Lawton principal is that Spectrum will no longer be self-contained starting next year.

Since when does a principal get to make that decision?! Spectrum is a district-defined program, and the district says it's self-contained. (Yes, I know this kind of building level override does happen, but it's not supposed to happen)

See the definition here: Advanced Learning Spectrum

3) Cluster district-identified students to form classroom rosters. District-identified students are students found eligible for the program through the district's testing process.

concerned said...

I could use some advice. Seems like the overall feeling is that the MAP scores are useless. However, after watching the trend of my son's scores it is hard not to be concerned. He is a second grader who tested into the spectrum program. We opted to keep him at his local school. His scores have consistently been dropping in reading and math from the 95th percentile to the 60th. If it were just an errant score I would never worry, but this trend has me concerned. Looking only at his school enjoyment and my perception of his progress, it seems things are going well. He likes school, seems to be making steady progress in reading and math etc. Does anyone know enough about the MAP test to tell me if we need to worry?

Bird said...

How long is the trend?

The younger grades take a different test from the older. Did the drop in fore coincide with this?

I found some of the anomalies in my kid's score could probably be accounted for by the amount of time spent on the test. The test records this and your teacher could probably provide it to you. That way you could rule out a lack of effort.

What does you kid's teacher say about how the scores com are to his actual progress?

Have his raw scores actually gone down or just the percentiles?

concerned said...

Thanks bird. He has dropped 5-10 percentage points each testing period. I have heard the tests changes at second grade which might explain a first to second grade drop but he also dropped from fall to winter this grade (second). It is so frustrating when these tests are supposed to be used to assess students, help teachers assess progress, provide feedback to parents when I have a sneaking feeling that if I ask his teachers or principal they are going to make excuses about the test itself. They say he is doing fine but is he slipping a little more behind every year? Sure, I understand that there are going to be occasions where a child is tired or hungry or someone is screaming next to them. But a consistent trend seems more concerning. Likewise, if a whole school has low map scores, that must indicate a school-wide problem right? Kids all over the country who take this test also have to deal with a selection of kids who are that day distracted or tired etc. Can you really blame the test if a whole school is below national averages?