How Have Changes in School Assignments Affected You?

KUOW is asking this question at their Public Insight Network page to try to get feedback on this issue for a story.

So it has been a year now with enrollment starting soon for year 2 of the NSAP. What's it been like? Has your family split kids at two schools? Made a life at a new school? Any predictions for 3-5 years down the line? (I'm predicting less diversity at many north end schools.)

Comments

anonymous said…
Really? Less diversity in north end schools?

They were never very diverse to begin with, so I don't see them becoming less diverse with the NSAP??

NE elementary schools have been over crowded for a long time. No families outside of the NE cluster were getting in prior to the NSAP, and they aren't getting in now. So these schools shouldn't be any less diverse.

There may have been a few spots open here and there in north cluster elementary schools but without transportation provided outside of the N cluster, not many south end or central area families chose these schools. The NSAP hasn't changed that, so I can't see these schools becoming less diverse either.

Eckstein and Whitman always filled with neighborhood kids. And Eckstein couldn't even accommodate all of the neighborhood kids. Nobody outside of the N and NE was getting in to either of these schools.

Roosevelt, and Ballard, same thing. Full with neighborhood kids, and long waitlists. Families who lived outside of these schools immediate neighborhoods were not getting in prior to the NSAP.

Ingraham and Hale haven't changed much either. Ingraham had 200 empty seats this year. Anybody, from any part of the city, who wanted to get in could have got in. So it wouldn't be any less diverse due to the NSAP either. Hale barely filled, but only because they did take so many students from outside the neighborhood as they always have. So Hale shouldn't be any less diverse either.

Hamilton would be the only school that is less diverse. The NSAP discontinued yellow bus service from the south end, and then APP was moved in. So yes, Hamilton is less diverse.

But what other schools are less diverse? I don't see it? If anything they may be more diverse if the district keeps its word and allows the 10% set aside seats for high schools.
My kids did go to Eckstein and Roosevelt and yes, because of programming, there were certainly a fair number of kids coming from the south end. Same thing at Ballard.

(Hale was underenrolled because Hale wanted to be smaller. I think more kids might have gone there if they had opened it up more.)

I probably should go back and compare the numbers over the last 6+ years but I'd bet the numbers of non-white students have gone down.

I can't speak for the elementaries.
Central Mom said…
I believe McClure is another middle school that will be less diverse, but I don't have my enrollment stats in front of me at the moment to say it definitively.
joanna said…
It will be interesting to see if the new transportation plan decreases diversity at TOPS.
Anonymous said…
Can anyone answer this for me...If my toddler enrolls in our local zoned school for KG, but then we move - not too far but in a different zone - can she still go to the same school for grade 1 or would we have to apply as an out-of-zone family?

Thanks!

-Mary
Mom to a 3 year old, starting to think ahead to the joys of scool enrollment
joanna said…
Beyond diversity I think it would be interesting to know the effect on the sense of community especially among parents. Did the assignment areas divide communities or bring them together. Do they enhance access of families to schools? Do they make walking to school more likely? These are suppose to be some of the arguments to the idea of neighborhood assignments, right?
Unknown said…
A wise sage once said, "Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody ever does anything about it." Replace "weather" with "diversity." My sense is that northenders care, deeply, about diversity, at least in the abstract. But in terms of their school-selection priorities, it's pretty far down on the list. At least for HS. If they really valued diversity, more parents would be putting their kids in the one north end high school that has more ethnic/racial diversity than the other schools. Instead, they express a strong preference for the north end high schools that have lower-than-district-average diversity.
zb said…
"My kids did go to Eckstein and Roosevelt and yes, because of programming, there were certainly a fair number of kids coming from the south end."

I think that this was because of the racial tiebreaker. I think when SPS stopped using it because of the school desegregation case, diversity remained for a while, because if sibling effects. But, in time, this diversity filtered out of the system as the schools became fully enrolled based with the distance criterion.

(I can't speak to "programming", 'cause I do think there have been changes in SpEd, for example, that could decrease diversity in some schools -- for example, moving SpEd programs from highly-enrolled schools)

Otherwise, I'm with momster. The north end schools aren't very diverse, and weren't during the OSAP, because distance wasn't any less segregating than the NSAP's assignment schools. SPS did do calcs, too, and I don't think any real change in diversity was expected, except in a few schools.
zb said…
"my toddler enrolls in our local zoned school for KG, but then we move - not too far but in a different zone - can she still go to the same school for grade 1 or would we have to apply as an out-of-zone family?"

I wish I could give you the direct link, but I believe that students who move are reassigned to the school that serves their new neighborhood (in the next school year -- they can stay out the current school year). They can only stay at the old school on a space-available basis, by applying as an out-of-area student. So your 1st grader would have to reapply to be able to stay in the school. For some schools, this may not be a problem, but for many of the popular schools, it would be.
anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
anonymous said…
Rosie, I think parents want high performing schools above everything else, including diversity. If the "more diverse" high school was one of the top performing high schools then parents would be clamoring to get in.

I think diversity is looked at as an added benefit. It's great for a school to have it, but in and of itself, it is not enough to drive a families decision to send their kid to a school to get it.
Josh Hayes said…
Since my son is likely to go to Ingraham when he enters high school next year, I'm curious about the change, or lack of change, in the student body there. With the APP split, and the school not getting physically bigger, I don't think there'll be empty seats there next year (or at most a handful).

I had the impression that Ingraham, as the only north-end high school with seats, was very popular with kids from the south end where high school choices were perceived as poor (i.e. Rainier Beach, Cleveland), but apparently that's not correct? Or is it? And why would that change with the NSAP, since IHS still has empty seats? All very confusing.
joanna said…
Isn't the idea to make all the schools great and desirable and build a strengthen a sense of community and empowerment for all areas? This is the challenge, right? Is is working? Can it work? If not are there proactive steps that can be taken in the immediate further to achieve such a vision?
Anonymous said…
We moved away from Seattle.

Our children were to be split up between 2 different schools. Two weeks after school began, we received a call letting us know our K student could transfer to our older child's school.

Our formerly chummy neighborhood and bus stop was mortally wounded by attendance area boundary changes. Waiting for the school bus became an exercise in nervous small talk and avoiding the elephant in the room.

We felt illegitimate for trying to get our youngest into our former attendance area school. Neighbors who lived a few tenths of a mile closer complained about the school's overcrowding and some even told us that if it happened to them, they would leave the school. (Thus telling us, in essence, we should leave.)

We got zero support from our school's principal. We found out about key sibling grandfathering issues through this blog or through the SPS website.

Although it wasn't the only reason we left Seattle, the overall chaos and lack of support we felt during this period was a key factor. We were convinced that new issues would arise and our time with SPS would be one giant roller coaster ride. We had had enough.

Interestingly, I occasionally check this blog to see what’s going on in the district. Perhaps I want validation that we did the right thing by leaving. Mostly, I’m hoping that things start to get genuinely better. I’m in a place now with very little school drama. It feels great, but after a couple of years of constantly struggling with school issues, I guess it’s hard to give up!

Former Seattleite
Unknown said…
Josh,

Ingraham has frequently been described as "the only well-performing south end high school" for just the reasons you describe. Historically it has drawn many students from the south end. It's too early to tell whether the NSAP, or the addition of IB at Sealth, or is it West Seattle?, has changed that.

If we could see the old dot maps, and then see a new dot map for where the students come from, that might help.

My sense is that Ingraham's 9th graders are a strong group of kids but I interact mostly Pre-IB families, which is at least a somewhat skewed sample.
zb said…
"Isn't the idea to make all the schools great and desirable and build a strengthen a sense of community and empowerment for all areas? "

Yes, I think that really is the goal. I also think that it's uniquely possible in Seattle. Why? I think there are many families who truly value diversity, who are willing to accept, and even welcome, 20,30, or even 40% free lunch populations into their schools. I also think that many schools in the district can remain below those levels, under the tipping points where people start to abandon their schools.

I also think there are a lot of good schools in Seattle, and I feel like I've seen the number increase (rather than decrease) over the years that I've followed the drama. For example, it looks like Ingraham, Franklin, and potentially even Cleveland might be coming into the fold of acceptable high schools.

I think the major issue that remains is not the quality of the system itself, but the quality of particular schools. I am sensitive to the worry that there's no good plan for addressing the problems at these schools.

My other major worry: funding. I think that the school system is going to have a prolonged period of very tight funding, and that there's going to be a significant constriction of what they can do. Resource limits always increase drama and unhappiness.
zb said…
I'm seeing Ingraham being seriously considered among 8th grade private school cohorts in northern neighborhoods (even those who are in the Roosevelt service area). They're attracted by the IB program and by the potential that they won't be in as crowded an environment as Roosevelt.
Jennifer said…
Question;

Last year the lottery admission to choice schools had the flaw that all kids who put the school ANYWHERE on their request forms (1st, 2nd, 3 choice) were put into the lottery. That means that a child who's family put a school as a third choice had the same chance as a family who put it down as their first choice. Seemingly unfair. Is it still working this way for next year’s enrollment?
joanna said…
Resources obviously do not always equal money. A certain level of funding is an absolute necessity, but a good dedicated parent and community group who is truly reaching out to all segments of the neighborhood to ensure family involvement in the school at a certain point is more important than other resources. Private resources often drive programs or ideas that do not necessarily support the neighborhood group need. The neighborhood must believe that the school is important piece of its vitality beyond when your child enters school.

When parents flee something is wrong with the leadership.

I believe much can be accomplished if District and school leadership encourage and allow for the community and parent involvement necessary to build great programs.
ZB, Eckstein had ELL programs that brought kids from the south end. I know this to be true. It may also be true that some south end kids came via the tiebreaker.

I think Joanna's observation about "wanting" diversity is true.

Mary, my understanding is that if you moved in the middle of the year your child could finish the year at the school. But then, for next year, you would have to apply to stay in.

Ingraham did have a fair number of south end kids both because it was perceived as better than what RBHS and Cleveland could offer AND because it was a long bus ride and parents felt secure knowing their kids had two bus trips in a day (and less time to be alone at home). I don't know exactly what will happen under the new APP plan; I suspect with the new addition and the APP/IB, the school will fill.

Abby, interesting you bring up the lottery issue. I had been in contact with a researcher at MIT who is looking at school choice. He was astonished how ahead of the curve SPS had been in using the Barnhart-Waldman amendment. The rest of the country is now starting to use such an amendment and he was surprised that now SPS got rid of it. He wanted to know why.

Momster, you must have missed it but the district rewrote the Open Choice seat plan. It's quite complex and depends on how full the school is. Garfield will definitely have no Open Choice seats (and maybe Roosevelt as well). They went back on their promise AND the NSAP they voted in.
joanna said…
It seems somehow it should be easier and I empathize with the poster who talked about constant drama. This is not good for families. If assignment areas is the plan, then the District has to ensure that they are drawn in a way that it can commit to the boundaries and rules and not throw families and communities into chaos every one or two or three or five years. Changes should be contemplated only if they are really desired by the entire community that would be affected and with planning.
hschinske said…
I thought Ingraham also drew south end kids due to an ELL program, but I could be misremembering. (There are, of course, lots of ELL kids in the far north end as well.)

Helen Schinske
Unknown said…
"I think there are many families who truly value diversity, who are willing to accept, and even welcome, 20,30, or even 40% free lunch populations into their schools."

OK ZB, I'll take the bait.

The School District's average of free and reduced lunch is about 41% (2009 numbers). In light of that, the idea that a family might be "willing to accept" a whopping 20% of such families at their school strikes me as an indication that those families are really all about window dressing in terms of diversity -- at least economic diversity. Give us a few lower income families, but don't drag us down to that District average please. It might mess up our PTA's ability to raise funds we use to support all those extras, if we have to ask the better-off families to donate more to subsidize those who can't give at all. It might mean that there are more kids who are struggling academically, because that's far more common in low income households, and that would bring down our overall test scores which would mean my kids are no longer going to a "good" school.

I actually think ZB's comments are right on. Middle and upper middle class people (myself included) really prefer to hang with their own kind. They select schools where they can continue to do so.
Anonymous said…
Abby: the so-called "flaw" you identified has been eliminated. Of course, as Melissa points out it wasn't a flaw at all but rather a forward-thinking procedural device that allowed people to list their true preferences on their application without playing strategic games. Under the old system, they basically simulated a live lottery in which they picked applicants at random and asked them to come up and pick their top choice among the remaining open slots. The district never explained how the old system worked and many people who hadn't thought the issues through thought it was unfair. The current administration realized that getting rid of this process would reduce choice in the aggregate and decided to cynically take advantage of that misperception to help in their quest to push every child back to their neighborhood school.
Unknown said…
on 2/3/11 11:11 AM Abby G. said...

Last year the lottery admission to choice schools had the flaw that all kids who put the school ANYWHERE on their request forms (1st, 2nd, 3 choice) were put into the lottery. That means that a child who's family put a school as a third choice had the same chance as a family who put it down as their first choice. Seemingly unfair. Is it still working this way for next year’s enrollment?

...

It was announced last year that the system you prefer will take over this year. I haven't yet looked for a document that backs that now verifies this, but that was the plan.

BUT, what you speak of as a "flaw" is actually a feature. I'd be happy to discuss this more with you, but not during my work day. For background, search these archives for "Gale Shapley" (and because misspelling is common "Gale Shapely"), and see the documents on this page:

http://www.teriyakidonut.com/schools/

-- Elizabeth
Dorothy Neville said…
"It was announced last year that the system you prefer will take over this year. I haven't yet looked for a document that backs that now verifies this, but that was the plan."

I do recall someone being asked this specifically sometime in the last couple months. Yes, we will be off the VAX for enrollment this year and Yes no matter what (if the migration fails), the forward-thinking but misunderstood fairness algorithm will not be used.

Alas, too many meetings and too aging a brain, I cannot recall the exact circumstance for this Q/A. I think it was at the A&F Nov 10th meeting where there was a VAX migration update but that Q is not specified in the minutes. So I am corroboration but not proof.
Anonymous said…
Hamilton is starting to feel like two different schools in some ways now that the 6th grade class is from only the north-end. Some sixth graders participated in an event that was in the paper a little bit ago about designing cities, the sixth graders are also going on a 3 day trip, to OPI I believe, as a class and having bake sales and breakfasts to raise money.

Those things aren't happening for the 7th and 8th graders as far as I know, and some of those kids are grumbling a little that they don't have the same opportunities. The 6th grade parents are probably the ones that made these things happen. The 7th and 8th grade parents are spread out across the city and more diverse economically, etc. so I can see it not working the same for those grades.

This problem will go away in a couple of years when all three grades are all from the same geographic area.

- Just hearing student gripes
Emily said…
The NSAP was beneficial for us. Our neighborhood school is extremely popular, and under the old system our early-entrance Kindergartener would never have gotten in, despite having an older sib there and being in the area. Under NSAP, he's in, and thriving.
Charlie Mas said…
zb wrote: "I'm seeing Ingraham being seriously considered among 8th grade private school cohorts in northern neighborhoods (even those who are in the Roosevelt service area). They're attracted by the IB program and by the potential that they won't be in as crowded an environment as Roosevelt."

Of course, Ingraham had both the IB program and the smaller school environment last year as well (and the year before that). This isn't a result of the NSAP.
Has the NSAP done anything noticeable to reduce transportation costs? It is absolutely embarrassing that Seattle, a city that has a strong culture of environmentalism, puts so many kids on buses when the majority of children at all grade levels live within the walk zone of at least one school of their grade level.

As world supplies of oil continue to decline (they have already peaked) we are going to have to come to terms with the fact that it simply doesn't make sense to put kids on busses when there is a walkable option to be had.
dj said…
Cascadian Chronicler, I can tell you what will happen if you take away the buses, which is that parents who (despite what you believe) do not consider their assigned schools walkable will just drive them.

Sure, encourage kids to walk to school, and/or parents to walk their kids to school. A campaign would be great. But I am getting pretty weary of the stick method of school rerform.
dj said…
Also, how the NSAP has affected us is that we have now spent a great deal of time researching enrollment trends, class numbers, etc. so that we can game the new NSAP. And we are sharing the results of our research with no one because it will affect our chances of being able to get an acceptable school for our kid.
joanna said…
I always spot typos right after I post which bothers me, but I guess that won't stop me. Anyway, the issue of poverty and free and reduced lunch numbers becomes a problem mainly due to poor leadership and fear, and yes, if it is overwhelming. Beacon Hill, for instance, has long been a well-managed school. I'm not saying that it could not be better. Nonetheless the community in general seems to support the school and be involved in ideas for programs without a lot of drama.

For me knowing that my children would have a number of peers who were achieving and interested in school was more important than the income levels. Yes, statistically there is a relationship between FRL and achievement. Nonetheless, that would have been a sort of secondary attribute that I would have noted and perhaps only if I noted other problems at the school. If a school can offer opportunities for students to know themselves, develop their talents, and participate together in engaging activities that allow them to show what they can do and contribute. Children in poverty are as diverse in their talents as are any other group and sometimes seem to be placed in programs to address poverty rather than talent and this cheats the students. I know the issues are more complex.

Nonetheless, I think if a very good school community can be built among diverse socioeconomic groups if proud parents can be supported and all rally around common concerns. Often District and building leadership seem to have agendas beyond building a strong school community from the neighborhood. Neighborhood becomes especially important in the plan with the specific attendance areas.
Cascadian, maybe? The district has not really been sincere in making this information available. I think they might have and may still after this new Transportation Plan.
wsnorth said…
The overcrowding caused by NSAP has pretty much destroyed many of the "fun" community building events that used to take place at our local elementary. The building can't even hold an all school assembly any more, and there are "never enough 4 square balls to go around any more".
wsnorth said…
On the subject of diversity... let's say Seattle has approximately 20% poor people, but SPS has 40% poor people.

Do only the poor count as "diverse"? To oversimplify, is my child having a more diverse experience than I am (as an adult) if, say, 40% of their peer group is poor, 40% in the next demographic, and practically no students from the professional or more "wealthy" demographic? Whereas the typical Seattle/US experience, say, is more like 20% poor, 40% middle and 40% professional or whatever you want to call it.

40% poor sounds segregated to me, not diverse. Would 80% poor be even more diverse? Where does the line cross???
DJ,

The fact that the majority of children in Seattle live in the walk zone of at least one school of their grade level is not what I believe, it is SPS policy, according to their walk zone maps. If parents want to use their own resources driving their children to a school that SPS thinks is walkable, that at least is not a waste of taxpayer dollars that could be used for much more valuable ends than a taxi service for those who may not need it.
wsnorth said…
I agree, Cascadian, putting these little kids on half empty busses and transporting them all over town is bad for their health, bad for the planet, and has to stop!

It wouldn't hurt the lazy parents to walk a mile or so, either, in many cases.

Unfortunately, in our area of West Seattle, walkability was destroyed by NSAP and the preceding closures. They didn't even appear to consider real life walk zones when coming up with this plan.
joanna said…
When a community has not been treated as the usual case or as a community for whom this would be an asset then this is a sore point. Most of the 400 students for whom the school was the closest would have been in a walk zone. The school was closed and now none live in a walk zone. I really don't want to relive that at the moment.
joanna said…
wsnorth and I have something in common. I wonder could there be a movement for rational thinking?
WSNorth, there was a move at one time to replace the racial tiebreaker with a socio-economic tiebreaker. So yes, I think poverty is a diversity measure. (Just as the rich are different from you and me.)
Beth said…
There should be some north end elementary schools with more diversity, especially in the north cluster. Both Northgate and Olympic Hills were high-poverty schools where kids were placed when their parents didn't know how to work the system. Now those kids should be dispersed throughout a number of the north end schools, which should be better for those kids. Hopefully both Northgate and Olympic Hills will improve to the point that people won't work to avoid them.
anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by the author.
anonymous said…
Olympic Hills was diverse because of it's location, not because parents in the north cluster didn't work the system. It was the reference school for a large portion of Lake City and Olympic Hills, both of which are lower income, very diverse, neighborhoods. It was also the reference school for the housing projects on 145th. That hasn't changed. Their new "attendance area" is almost identical to their old "reference area". I doubt the NSAP will disperse any diversity in this school. As for Northgate their reference area served a very large number of apartments. Their new "attendance area" hasn't changed much. It still includes those apartments, which are of course much more diverse than the single family home neighborhoods of Bryant, View Ridge, Laurelhurst, Ravenna.
Northgate was also the designated school for homeless children in the north end. Not sure if it still is?

Doubt the NSAP will cause any dispersement of diversity - at least in these two schools cases.
wsnorth said…
I agree poverty is a diversity measure, but at what point does "diversity" become "segregation"?

Is it "diverse" if the school poverty rate is 2 times the city average? 3 times? 4 times? Is 80% poverty "diverse"? I think we have lost the dictionary meaning of "diversity".

True socio-economic diversity (and possibly related measures) would theoretically include children of Doctors, Lawyers, Technology workers, Teachers, Working poor, Sales people, etc. etc.
wsnorth said…
I agree poverty is a diversity measure, but at what point does "diversity" become "segregation"?

Is it "diverse" if the school poverty rate is 2 times the city average? 3 times? 4 times? Is 80% poverty "diverse"? I think we have lost the dictionary meaning of "diversity".

True socio-economic diversity (and possibly related measures) would theoretically include children of Doctors, Lawyers, Technology workers, Teachers, Working poor, Sales people, etc. etc.
Charlie Mas said…
We could choose any number of measures of diversity.

Seattle, the city, is about 70% white and has a median household income of more than $70,000.

Seattle Public Schools, on the other hand, is about 40% White and about 44% FRE.

Neither of these strike me as a good benchmark for any school, let alone every school.

Instead, I think it would be good if a school's student demographics reflected the demographics of school-age children in the school's attendance area. That data isn't readily available, is it?

We can't very well expect attendance area schools in affluent neighborhoods to have up to 40% of their students FRE, now can we? And there's no basis for sneering at those communities for not being "diverse" enough, is there?

Likewise, we can't very well expect attendance area schools in low-income neighborhoods to have as few as 50% of their students FRE either.

The only schools that can be expected to meet these goals are The Center School, The NOVA Project, and STEM, as they are the only schools that recruit equitably citywide and provide equitable transportation as well.
WS southside said…
The West Seattle maps are still weird. We are less than a mile from Sealth, 2.5 miles from West Seattle HS, but our street somehow landed in the Madison/WSHS zone, so that is where our 9th grader would have been if we had not sought and received an option/choice/whatever seat at Sealth.

If we had a grade-schooler, I believe Gatewood would be the assignment, which is appropriate, as it's about 3/4 of a mile away, but feeding Gatewood into Madison/WSHS still makes no sense.
wsnorth said…
Weird doesn't even begin to describe the West Seattle school assignment boundaries!

Back to the original topic of diversity, all of the most expensive real estate was oddly assigned to West Seattle High/Madison (no matter how close or far away) while the projects, large apartment complexes, and less expensive areas (generally speaking) were assigned to Sealth/Denny.

It is almost as if the district was trying to purposefully segregate these schools.

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