tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post1059603675441658341..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Crosscut Article about Seattle School Board (the new one)Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger114125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72542024563105370612011-12-01T09:45:59.858-08:002011-12-01T09:45:59.858-08:00Oh thank you Emeraldstater for sharing your wisdom...Oh thank you Emeraldstater for sharing your wisdom with us.<br /><br />Let me return the favor and share some wisdom with you:<br /><br />People don't generally respond well to abuse. Calling folks "fools" or "delusional" is not generally an effective means of persuasion.<br /><br />I presume that you know this. Consequently, I conclude that you were not writing to persuade, but to berate. It is, of course, possible that you're just a troll, the online equivalent of a flasher who derives pleasure from upsetting people and reading their angry responses.<br /><br />Either way you've proven yourself foolish and therefore incapable of offering wisdom.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50939089667664617502011-11-30T09:33:37.155-08:002011-11-30T09:33:37.155-08:00I think many of you are delusional. What do you t...I think many of you are delusional. What do you think success looks like? It is positive trending and significant, though incremental success. It is NOT seeing everything match your personal vision as to how SPS should be managed.<br /><br />When the Board handed over the troubled position of Superintendent to Susan Enfield on an interim basis, with a decision on whether or not to initiate a nationwide search by January next, implicit in that appointment was the commitment of the Board to render an up or down vote on Enfield's performance, and if the vote was negative, then and only then to initiate a search. To have intended otherwise would have been craven and dishonest. Why would ANYONE take the job any other way? Does anyone seriously think that it would make sense for the Board to have, in effect, said to Enfield: "Here, take this lousy position, put your own life on hold, and see if you can save the situation. And eight months from now, we will go out and look for someone to replace you regardless of how well you do the job"?<br /><br />If the Board now chooses, as rumors suggest one or both of the new members may be leaning, to initiate a search, it can only be taken by Enfield as one of two things: a negative vote on her performance, or a cynical ploy for political cover. If Enfield agreed to be party to a search under either scenario, she is not smart enough for the job. This is typical self-destructive behavior in the educational space of Seattle. Throw the Superintendent in the water, and if she drowns, then she was the right person for the job. <br /><br />She is damned right to decline to participate in any search.<br /><br />So what does success look like? If one can't see the outlines of success in the marked improvement at SPS in the time Enfield has held the two top jobs, then I think intellectual honesty needs to be questioned. Does she deserve credit for the progress, or is it dumb luck, inevitability, or equivocation of results? The public, outside this space, has been enthusiastic about Enfield's performance. Is that because they are just so much dumber than the bloggers here?<br /> <br />Fools deny the evidence before them, because it does not fit their parochial perception of what should be done. The wise accept success and build on it. We shall see which group the Board now belongs to.EmeraldStaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15407402781204442188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66237656784511926852011-11-21T19:36:09.438-08:002011-11-21T19:36:09.438-08:00Seattle Citizen -- I completely concur. And -- I ...Seattle Citizen -- I completely concur. And -- I may have been mistaken about EmeraldKity -- I am thinking it is maybe SolvayGir's child, or children, who are in private school at great personal cost to them, due to the misfortune of a south seattle address. I probably shouldn't have named ANY names if I wasn't sure. So my apologies to all for any errors.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22346969261096985742011-11-21T17:43:47.857-08:002011-11-21T17:43:47.857-08:00"Establish mechanisms to solicit input from r..."Establish mechanisms to solicit input from representative samples of the public, not only<br />self‐selected individuals or subgroups;"<br /><br />I love this directive. Isn't the Alliance group a self-selected subgroup? The Board members should use this line of defense when they choose to go against the "powers that be".Linh-Conoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52037606784267823502011-11-21T17:00:27.716-08:002011-11-21T17:00:27.716-08:00Jan, you write that "I disagree that having o...Jan, you write that "I disagree that having one's kid in a Seattle public school is a litmus test for participation in school debates. There are LOTS of good reasons why people make other choices for their kids. And there are LOTS of people who have had valuable comments on this board (including but not limited to EmeraldKity) who have elected school solutions other than public. I think it is a complete red herring."<br /><br />Some people have no children at all, but are taxpayers and have relatives or friends with children. Don't forget them, those that foot the bill for the whole shebang and those citizens who are interested even if not directly impacted.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89381204395263749352011-11-21T16:30:15.903-08:002011-11-21T16:30:15.903-08:00I disagree that having one's kid in a Seattle ...I disagree that having one's kid in a Seattle public school is a litmus test for participation in school debates. There are LOTS of good reasons why people make other choices for their kids. And there are LOTS of people who have had valuable comments on this board (including but not limited to EmeraldKity) who have elected school solutions other than public. I think it is a complete red herring.<br /><br />Moreover -- if all those LEV folks, and Alliance folks, etc. had their kids ensconsed at Roosevelt or Hale -- I would dislike their ideas just as much as I do now (not knowing WHERE their kids are). It is not the identity of the your child's school that matters, it is the legitimacy (logical and moral) of the positions you champion. <br /><br />The goal of school -- ANY school -- ought to be student learning. The primary positions staked out by the movement we call ed reform are, in my opinion, antithetical to learning. They destroy it by bleeding funds from students (and those who work directly with them) to big corporate enterprises involved in data collection, aggregation and manipulation, testing (just another form of data) and "management" at levels far removed from teacher and student. They devalue the personal relationships that are at the heart of learning. They dismiss individual learning styles, interests, and needs. They have no use for good teaching -- substituting instead "good test taking," and "good abilities to maintain 'fidelity of implementation' to the latest curricular fad. <br /><br />Frankly, I don't care where Bill Gates's kids go to school, and have a hard time imagining that many public schools could handle the security requirements associated with having them there. If Bill and Melinda Gates were to arrive on the scene championing an approach that focused on maximum use of scarce resources, emphasis on student learning, targeting resources to each child (whether ahead of the average, or behind) and focusing on advancing each kid as far along his/her personal trajectory as possible, I wouldn't care if they sent their kids to Lakeside, or Mars, or had no kids at all.<br /><br />I think we open ourselves up to those who come in saying -- well, MY kid is at ____ [public] school, and I LOVE all these Ed Reform ideas -- so there! What then? We now have to give credence to their ideas? Just because they have a child in public school, so they are now a "legitimate" part of the debate? No thanks. Bad ideas are bad ideas, no matter who espouses them. By the same token, good ideas and logical thinking have merit -- no matter who espouses them. People who now have kids in private school may have been public school kids themselves, or they may just be smart, intelligent folks who care passionately about public education, and/or have thought about the negative ramifications of attempting to apply certain corporate principles (that don't always work so well in those corporations either, by the way) to the education of children, and seen how bad the fit is.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42312994712164064032011-11-21T16:06:03.423-08:002011-11-21T16:06:03.423-08:00Seattle Mom: I agree with you. I think we need t...Seattle Mom: I agree with you. I think we need to start advocating for solutions we think will work. Of course, "we" can't do that as a blog, necessarily -- because there are lots of folks here with lots of different ideas about stuff. But I think many of us have good ideas, ideas that keep money, assets, and focus IN the classroom and ON KIDS (not on expensive, top down contracts with entities that promise to measure, sort, and aggregate data, for the purpose of firing teachers or closing/reconstituting schools) -- I think there are lots of ideas that District staff and the Board should hear about and consider (actually, many posters and commenters here HAVE good ideas -- but no one historically has been willing to listen to them (see Charlie's posts on the difference between complaining and whining, etc.) -- and like you -- I think a lot of folks on this blog would love to go on the offensive -- start talking about what we DO want to see, and how it might best be accomplished. <br /><br />During the MGJ years, the biggest problem was not only did she come loaded with toxic ideas, she had them preloaded into a sort of "ball machine" and she just fired them at us nonstop. When all you can do on YOUR side of the court is frantically chase down and kill the worst of the bad ideas (and they kept coming) -- it is hard to stop, take a breath, and serve up your own. <br /><br />From the private businesses I know, this alone should have gotten her fired (and the board replaced). No company worth its salt allows its chief executive to just run amok with change and disruption to the organization. Good organizations have some sense of how much they can accomplish well -- and it is bad management to try to do more -- because you end up doing everything badly. Thus -- relatively good ideas -- like starting a STEM school got the same half-baked, overpriced (sorry, too busy to watch those pennies!) treatment that the bad ideas (standardizing curriculum) got. <br /><br />The last 3 members of the old guard (DeBell, Carr and Martin-Morris) should be ashamed of themselves for allowing MGJ to run so amok. <br /><br />And -- it was not by accident. I firmly believe that it was MGJ's intent to do sort of a "blitzkrieg" -- firing out so many ed reform ideas, all to be done at once, at great cost, that she would drain any resources away from non-ed reform ideas AND get most of what she wanted in place before people had a chance to sort it all out.<br /><br />So -- I think it is time for folks who have good ideas to start getting them in front of the Board and anyone in District management who will listen. There ARE good people downtown. And I think you are right. We CAN make a difference. We won't influence LEV, the Alliance, etc. But we can influence anyone (on the Board or at the District) who is not totally sold out to the Ed Reform crowd.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62104073056206324902011-11-21T14:21:53.652-08:002011-11-21T14:21:53.652-08:00Michael H, who says people who don't agree wit...Michael H, who says people who don't agree with him are naive, paranoid (conspiracy theorists) or don't care enough to vote. Somehow I don't see how your arguments are more persuasive than mine.<br /><br />WV: swing away, I have an ionjaw.StopTFAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08605108615707039386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16396650164125958792011-11-21T11:21:37.968-08:002011-11-21T11:21:37.968-08:00Sahila, of course you can have an opinion and I, f...Sahila, of course you can have an opinion and I, for one, learn a lot from your posts - whether or not I agree. That is the beauty of this blog - it is a forum for many opinions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79498306252133896562011-11-20T21:40:50.405-08:002011-11-20T21:40:50.405-08:00@Michael H.... figures??? so, I cant have an opi...@Michael H.... figures??? so, I cant have an opinion about what is and is not good for my child, when he participates in the public education system, just because I cant vote here?<br /><br />Or I cant advocate for other children in the public education system, just because I cant vote here?<br /><br />I pay taxes and those taxes are used for education, amongst other things...<br /><br />that gives me the right to have an opinion...Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60327236798283026142011-11-19T22:47:30.233-08:002011-11-19T22:47:30.233-08:00@Sahila:"I cant vote here in the US..."
...@Sahila:"I cant vote here in the US..."<br /><br />Figures.Michael Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5515549229118025722011-11-19T22:43:51.404-08:002011-11-19T22:43:51.404-08:00@StopTFA: " I vote to put people in to repres...@StopTFA: " I vote to put people in to represent me, my child, and the community's interests, not some dude who's kid surely goes to private school. I expect those people to do some independent verification and research into what "excellence in public education looks like" (and it ain't TFA and their "internal metrics"), sound out the community, and demand that their employee follow their direction, not self-selected missionaries like Jon Bridge's."<br /><br />Then you are naive.Michael Hnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89591557158559178782011-11-19T22:11:23.249-08:002011-11-19T22:11:23.249-08:00Headscratcher: Does anyone on this blog get on spe...Headscratcher: Does anyone on this blog get on speed dial or private memo with the superintendent when (s)he wants to? No.<br /><br />Does the Alliance as a group and as individual board members Sara, Jon, etc. have that access and take full advantage of it? Yes.<br /><br />Does this blog have money? No.<br />Does the Alliance? Yes.<br /><br />And does the Alliance dangle money to get its way? Yes. <br /><br />The only places The Alliance does not have an advantage in its lobbying is in its highly amusing ability to be thin skinned to criticism and in the fact that its apparent viewpoint (damn the teachers, damn the little people, white folks with money know best)is rooted in a deep falsehood.<br /><br />I'm Glad I'm On the Other Side of Let Them Eat CakeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69793526309853684712011-11-19T20:52:40.369-08:002011-11-19T20:52:40.369-08:00I have considered the Alliance's views. I hav...I have considered the Alliance's views. I have had meetings with Patrick and Sara and other Alliance folks. I sat at LEV's table with Alliance folks. Just because you weren't there, don't assume. You'd be surprised how many people Charlie and I talk to but it gets old when you realize they aren't really listening nor telling you exactly what it is they are doing.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61482153047217591262011-11-19T20:32:40.781-08:002011-11-19T20:32:40.781-08:00Saying the Alliance is a community member is like ...Saying the Alliance is a community member is like saying corporations are people too. Equally absurd.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49872401316987205952011-11-19T19:43:49.722-08:002011-11-19T19:43:49.722-08:00Ed reformers is such a vaguely convenient term. Sa...Ed reformers is such a vaguely convenient term. Saying how many Ed Reformers have their kids in our schools is an unanswerable question. Why not be specific. Do you mean how many board members of the Alliance have or have had kids in SPS? If so, why not look it up? I believe many of them do.<br /><br />Does Diane Ratvich have kids in the system? She seems to have a lot of influence in the anti-reform circles, and with folks on this blog. Ya'll love to hear what she has to say. Where are her kids? Does she even have any?<br /><br />But I digress. You believe that only people with kids in the system should have a say, right?<br /><br />Does that mean board directors should be required to have a kid in SPS? Because many don't. How about the new super? Should he/she have to have a kid in the system? Central staff? All of these folks are heavily involved with policy making. Should they not be?<br /><br />These questions are rhetorical of course, because they are ridiculous. Like it or not, community members, including the Alliance, get just as much say as you do WSDWG. Sorry.<br /><br />scratching my headanonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13561747965218039642011-11-19T19:41:31.730-08:002011-11-19T19:41:31.730-08:00@WSDAWG - You said it:
"How many of the Ed Re...@WSDAWG - You said it:<br />"How many of the Ed Reformers have their kids in our schools, right now, affected by the policies they advocate for? <br />I think it's less about who thinks who is right, and more about the paternalism and offense at having people with no skin in the game experiment on our kids with "reforms" that don't touch their own."seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26935926906934634202011-11-19T19:39:47.395-08:002011-11-19T19:39:47.395-08:00@scratching my head:
The opinions (and news and da...@scratching my head:<br />The opinions (and news and data) posted on this blog represent a variety of perspectives from a diverse bunch of citizens, parent/guardians, educators...The people of this city, the taxpayers who pay for the schools.<br /><br />The agenda pushed by the Alliance (THEIR blog has been inactive for a long, long time...) is the agenda of some wealthy people who think they know what's best for our children, and spend their money to influence people (see the astro-turf "Our Schools Coalition" spun off by the Alliance to distance themselves from the teacher-slamming faux-report on teacher quality.)<br /><br />"Them": Agents of the Reformistas from "Foundations" and other self-identified know-it-alls;<br />"Us": Diverse people with disverse ideas engaged in true discussion.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57913961919494233032011-11-19T19:19:44.990-08:002011-11-19T19:19:44.990-08:00Michael is funny.... makes a lot of assumptions ab...Michael is funny.... makes a lot of assumptions about what my point of view is based on.. <br /><br />I cant vote here in the US...Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91640620077079978702011-11-19T18:55:23.320-08:002011-11-19T18:55:23.320-08:00@scratching:
How many of the Ed Reformers have th...@scratching:<br /><br />How many of the Ed Reformers have their kids in our schools, right now, affected by the policies they advocate for? <br /><br />I think it's less about who thinks who is right, and more about the paternalism and offense at having people with no skin in the game experiment on our kids with "reforms" that don't touch their own. <br /><br />WSDWGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90369332170036878602011-11-19T18:25:53.931-08:002011-11-19T18:25:53.931-08:00skeptical said: "The Alliance does not like i...skeptical said: "The Alliance does not like it...does not like it AT ALL...when citizens weigh in with opinions contrary to its own on how this district should be run "<br /><br />Same could be said about many of the people who comment on this blog as well.<br /><br />Everyone thinks their view is the right view. Including the people that post here. <br /><br />It's funny to me that bloggers who refuse to consider the views of the Alliance expect the Alliance to consider their views. <br /><br />scratching my headanonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31554605830472470112011-11-19T18:24:50.816-08:002011-11-19T18:24:50.816-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45737608502365319962011-11-19T18:22:45.449-08:002011-11-19T18:22:45.449-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25670889601980947962011-11-19T17:51:05.439-08:002011-11-19T17:51:05.439-08:00OK, maybe I am idealistic or I have this crazy fai...OK, maybe I am idealistic or I have this crazy faith, but yes, I do think if we can support and propel the organizations that are there to represent us, the teachers' unions, the SCPTSA, the school board, our elected representatives and give them concrete plans and ideas, then yeah, we will get a seat at the table. But we need to be a part of the solution not just mere gadflies. <br /><br />It is still our governor, our legislators, our district admin that control much of the taxpayers' purse strings. Wouldn't you want some say at where the $ and resources are going? Why would you want to cede control to people outside our district, our city, and our state? <br /><br />I hope we can take back from the 1% and rebalance some of the checks and balances in our system. We still need to fix our school, our economy, bring jobs, fix our roads, our health care mess. And to do that you still need those 1% rascals for all their wealth and power. <br /><br />If your union don't represent you well, then elect new reps that do. C'mon folks. We do have a chance with this new board. Can we try to move toward the middle, toward some kind of reconciliation? I don't say this lightly having worked in various civil wars overseas. I have seen fragile truce brokered and failed because of the tinders and smoldering hatred and tit for tat dealings. So as long as you keep replaying the distrusts and the fear mongering, you will remain lock in that cycle of righteousness. And you will remain far apart. And where does leave our kids and classrooms?<br /><br />Seattle momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91709058845683161012011-11-19T16:34:17.537-08:002011-11-19T16:34:17.537-08:00"They are the K Street of Seattle Public Scho..."They are the K Street of Seattle Public Schools."<br /><br />Very funny and very true. <br /><br />Skeptical, I may borrow some of your words for my thread because I just couldn't say it better.<br /><br />Yes, it's true. No one can shut us up. Without bosses and funders, we are free to say whatever we want and mostly, we tell the truth.<br /><br />See, reading the Alliance's absolutely out of line document (and I'll address that in my thread), it's quite clear that they want to control everything. They have a vision and it's the right one. <br /><br />But sadly for them, they are, themselves, only one sub-section, of this community. And with all their money, they still can't control or buy School Board elections.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.com