tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post1448755055266440249..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Bell Times MorassMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85134779226543990152015-10-09T19:34:01.667-07:002015-10-09T19:34:01.667-07:00That's interesting anonymous poster @ 11:55. A...That's interesting anonymous poster @ 11:55. Another Seattle parent also called the author of that paper and seems to have received a less negative reaction to the planned flip. See this comment:<br /><br /><i>ProSleep Mom10/1/15, 12:47 PM<br />Regarding the impact of 8am starts on elementary, I read the whole study and couldn't really determine what constitutes 'too early' and thus causes harm. Their sample included starts as early as 7 am and as late as 9:10 am; 8:05 was the median. So I called the researcher and talked to her about it. She said it wasn't absolutely clear what times were OK and what weren't; the study she is doing now is indicating a linear progression of benefit. Most pediatricians involved in this kind of work generally say elementary should be no earlier than 8 am, which is what is being proposed.<br /><br />This area lacks the robust research that is found for secondary start times, where there is a clear and present health danger to start times before 8:30 am. I don't want to move the damage to the younger kids, but I think the 8 am time is pretty safe for them; it may not be the optimal time, but it's not a time bomb.<br /><br />For the older kids, this is like the heavy metals in the school drinking fountains that we experienced years ago- it is a known hazard and it needs to change NOW. Serious contemplation of suicide goes from 9.8% to 16.8% when teens get less than 8 hours sleep, alcohol use goes from 36.7 to 50.3%, cigarette use from 15% to 24%, not to mention much higher rates of obesity, diabetes, violent behavior and significantly higher rates of car accidents. AAP and CDC both point to school start times as a key, changeable cause of inadequate sleep.</i><br /><br />Here's a link to that discussion: http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.com/2015/09/first-seattle-schools-bell-times.html?m=1#comment-formLynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8855683796014720992015-10-09T13:40:09.714-07:002015-10-09T13:40:09.714-07:00The sleep expert at the JAMS Bell Times meeting sa...The sleep expert at the JAMS Bell Times meeting said that elementary students hadn't been studied as much as teens in regards to peak learning times, but that the general opinion is that peak learning for elementary kids is about 2 hours after waking, which is approximately 9 am.<br /><br />The kids in the Tier 3 will not start school until 9:40, so while the kids who start at 8:00 will eventually hit their peak learning time of day while in school, the Tier 3 kids will miss it entirely. I realize this is already happening with the current 9:30 elementary start at some schools, but that doesn't mean it is OK. SPS should be considering the best possible schedule for all students, and go to two tiers. <br /><br />- North-end MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60040072661076400172015-10-09T11:55:18.324-07:002015-10-09T11:55:18.324-07:00
I appreciate that Seattle Public Schools is looki...<br />I appreciate that Seattle Public Schools is looking for ways to delay the start times of middle school and high school students based on the substantial evidence that greater sleep in this cohort will likely lead to benefits in health and safety outcomes, as well as school performance. However, what concerns me greatly is that the proposed solution may simply be finding benefits for older students at the expense of costs to younger students.<br /><br />The prevailing assumption of the proposed ‘modified flip’ is that there are no real costs; middle school and high school students receive benefits (on average), and there are no costs to elementary school students. The trade-off was characterized in this manner, explicitly, on Seattle Public School’s Bell Times website during the time period when parents were asked to weigh in on the issue through the survey. However, in a relatively short search of the literature, I was able to locate peer-reviewed research (http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/edu-a0037195.pdf<br />) showing that early start times may negatively affect the elementary cohort, too. I shared this research with Seattle Public Schools but I do not believe this has been included in the ongoing public discussion and decision-making. <br /><br />In the above article, the authors provide evidence that earlier school start times are associated with poorer school performance in elementary schools. Combined with research showing that 25% of school-age children in first to fifth grade obtain less than the recommended daily amount of sleep (National Sleep Foundation Sleep in America Poll, 2004), I am concerned that there may be significant costs imposed on our youngest students who will now be asked to show up for school an hour and a half earlier. The authors state that policies such as the ‘modified flip’ proposed by Seattle Public Schools “may simply be shifting the problem from adolescents to younger children, instead of eliminating it altogether.” Indeed, I have contacted the lead author of the study directly and she has cautioned against flipping the start times as a solution in our district. <br /><br />I understand the desire to have a cost-neutral policy change and realize that asking for additional funding for transportation may not be easy, but I also feel that the probable costs of the ‘modified flip’ to the most vulnerable cohort are not being fully accounted for in the proposed recommendation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8910971290534077092015-10-08T22:09:11.586-07:002015-10-08T22:09:11.586-07:00If you believe the research that more sleep is nee...If you believe the research that more sleep is needed by middle schoolers and high schoolers, that it is harder for them to awaken earlier, and that their learning, mental health, and safety are impacted by lack of sleep, then you will be willing to make compromises about start times for your children over the course of their 13 years in school. Learning, mental health, and safety - those are the benefits of this new proposal.<br /><br />Elementary: Currently almost half of SPS elementary schools start at 9:30, which is not that different than 9:40. There’s been no huge outcry about that start time on this blog, at school board meetings, etc. People adjusted – as did childcare providers. Why is starting at 9:40 suddenly an equity issue? I smell a rat. An 8:00 start for elementary is much earlier, but kids that age wake up earlier. I could see making a case for a school that draws from all over (like Lincoln/Cascadia – HCC) being a 9:40 starter because of busing from father away. Otherwise, to the posters who complain about late sport practices and getting their elementary schooler to bed on time, I simply say: we have high schoolers whose bodies biologically cannot go to sleep so that they can sleep enough for their 7:50 start – no matter what kind of practice thy do or don’t have. In other words, practices are a choice. Elementary school kids are ABLE to get to sleep in time to make a 8:00 start OK. If their sport practice is at 7:00 at night, then choose a different sport or activity.<br /><br />9:40 for middle school: late, but again we have 26 elementary schools starting at 9:30 and getting out at 3:40 for a 6 year span of schooling. The real problem with this start time is that it puts them out at 4:10. However, middle school is a quick 3 years and again: learning, mental health, and safety. <br /><br />High school: starting at 8:50 is so much better for this age group than starting at 7:50. Learning, mental health, and safety. <br /><br />NONE of this is about parent and caregiver convenience. As was said in a prior thread, it never has been about our convenience. Schools aren’t childcare and don’t mirror most people’s work schedules. Summer break is inconvenient. Early dismissal for teacher training is inconvenient. It’s not about our convenience. <br /><br />After school activities are optional and people can choose not to participate in them or only participate in those that fit their schedule. <br /><br />Learning, mental health, and safety.<br /><br />Flip the Bells<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9983708080349439642015-10-08T17:42:25.412-07:002015-10-08T17:42:25.412-07:00Superintendents Final Draft Proposal (Bell Times)
...Superintendents Final Draft Proposal (Bell Times)<br /><br />http://seattleschools.org/common/pages/DisplayFile.aspx?itemId=2451501<br /><br />-North-end MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21216138061100253272015-10-08T16:23:25.650-07:002015-10-08T16:23:25.650-07:00Where can I see which elementary schools would be ...Where can I see which elementary schools would be in which tier under the new proposal? On the SPS website it still says that they haven't determined which ones would be at which times next year and beyond. Thanks. <br />a questionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69833837287088816652015-10-08T16:02:51.306-07:002015-10-08T16:02:51.306-07:00I have an elementary aged kid at a tier 3 school (...I have an elementary aged kid at a tier 3 school (9:30 start) and our school wants to keep the later start!<br /><br />I also have a middle schooler (8th) and the 7:50 start has been BRUTAL for his sleep, mental health and learning. I dread his high school experience if the bell time doesn't change. <br /><br />The current flipped proposal is imperfect and I'd prefer that everyone start around 8:30-9:00. However, barring that, I support this plan because I have a child going to high school next year and one who will go in the future (as do all of us with kids in school). For my younger child, the flip plan will mean an earlier start for a few more elementary years and a late start (and end) for middle school - inconvenient in some ways, not my preference in other ways. BUT my focus is on older kids NEEDing a later start.<br /><br />(reluctant) supporter<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56712739330792416552015-10-08T13:33:55.860-07:002015-10-08T13:33:55.860-07:00Sidewalk WIDENING projects? What about all the nei...Sidewalk WIDENING projects? What about all the neighborhoods without sidewalks!?!<br /><br />There is no such thing as a "safe route to school" for most kids living north of 85th Street. Kids are walking on roads with no sidewalks or shoulders, around huge street puddles that take up both lanes of traffic...and they are widening sidewalks elsewhere?<br /><br />- North-end MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69840318766106776552015-10-08T11:04:31.070-07:002015-10-08T11:04:31.070-07:00Interesting - the Mayor is holding a press confere...Interesting - the Mayor is holding a press conference on "Safe Routes to schools" today - a Kiro reporter tweeted these statements...<br /><br />"<i>All kids in the @seapubschools will learn to ride a bike in 3rd-5th grade, part of #SafeRoutes. </i><br /><br />really? and all 3-5th graders have parents who can afford bikes? Or are physically capable of doing so??? <br /><br />"<i>24% of @seapubschools students walk to school. Big increase. Sidewalk widening projects now in the works.</i><br /><br />that seems like a low number to me?<br /><br />Additional info<br />NE Seattle Greenways @NEGreenways <br />Announcement by @MayorEdMurray @seattledot for 5 year #SafeRoutesToSchool Action Plan. http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/saferoutes_actionplan.htm<br /><br />And oooh there's an "incentive" plan - stickers! yipppee! (color me cynical today ;o)<br /><br />reader47Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59687081849335280302015-10-08T08:13:15.119-07:002015-10-08T08:13:15.119-07:00There's an article today in the Seattle Times ...There's an article today in the Seattle Times about the Gates Fdn and their challenges and lack of success in education. Maybe they should funds SPS the cost of going to two tiers with healthy bell schedules for all. The educational benefits would likely be positive, so they could claim a success. Win-win.<br /><br />HFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43513072779265646902015-10-08T07:42:10.783-07:002015-10-08T07:42:10.783-07:00Garfield mom- I just sent you the data. Let us kn...Garfield mom- I just sent you the data. Let us know your thoughts after you take a look.<br />ProSleep Momnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37327705372650070532015-10-08T00:10:33.829-07:002015-10-08T00:10:33.829-07:00
And fewer stops right? Kids can walk 5 blocks, t...<br /><br />And fewer stops right? Kids can walk 5 blocks, that is a 1/2 mile radius between stops. Currently it is a couple of blocks. <br /><br />And this is primarily and rightly for SpEd riders. Seems there is something we have over looked to get kids where they need to be successfully without stress and on time. <br /><br />_ughhhhAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1260614955636672412015-10-07T22:20:43.906-07:002015-10-07T22:20:43.906-07:00ProSleep Mom, I'd be happy to dig into that da...ProSleep Mom, I'd be happy to dig into that database and see what info we can get from it. You can email me at seattleschoolsdata @ gmail.com. I've started looking at some numbers available from OSPI but I don't have the background knowledge for how transportation works so it's a steep learning curve. <br /><br />Parents shouldn't have to work so hard to understand how the district does things. Their communication is abysmal, either because they lack the skills or because they deliberately withhold/distort information. GarfieldMomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91079267471578208602015-10-07T21:50:10.438-07:002015-10-07T21:50:10.438-07:00Northshore did a much better survey than we did- w...Northshore did a much better survey than we did- with push-pull questions like:<br /><br />The AAP strongly recommends 8:30 start for adolescents- blurb about circadian shifts, etc.<br /><br />Knowing this, do you support 8:30 or later starts for middle and high school?<br /><br />Enacting later starts would mean elementary schools will have either an 8 am or 9:40 start- would you still support changing middle and high times?<br /><br />Sports performance increases and injuries decrease when teens get more sleep when schools start later. Afternoon practices would need to be shorter, and there could be morning practices. About 18% of high school students participate in sports. <br />Knowing all this, do you support middle school start times of 9:40 and high school start times of 8:50?<br /><br />etc... you bring up positives and negatives and so everyone gets the big picture- and then see what the support is.<br /><br />Family convenience is not what this is about! One has to look at what is healthy for kids for their whole school career- not just this moment in time.<br /><br />ProSleep Momnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83543459315200459602015-10-07T21:32:05.269-07:002015-10-07T21:32:05.269-07:00Many people want two tiers, hard to find someone w...Many people want two tiers, hard to find someone who doesn't; I lobbied very hard for them on the Task Force and in community meetings- but I think the big question is how likely we are to get them.<br /><br />The current Board has clearly and consistently demanded a cost-neutral solution. Our buses currently run an average of 2.24 runs; far below the three we should have in theory, but going down to two will definitely cost money. They estimate $8 million; my own calculations are closer to $4 million. Some transparency here would be really helpful- a detailed calculation, not a rough estimation with 30% contingency factors. (BTW, I obtained the full Transportation database through a public records request- happy to share it with anyone who really wants to dive in (wonks, where are you??).)<br /><br />So this Board is pretty unlikely to vote in two tiers. <br /><br />Will this change with the new Board? Possibly. A suggestion has been floated that they will consider two tiers when the 20 minutes is added on, because those schedules will be worse yet. However, the money problem remains and the new Board, whoever they are, will also have to find the money the pay for the 20 minutes, which I have heard is still needs to be sourced. (I have asked for clarification from staff on this point; so far, no response- if anyone else knows, please enlighten us. This is very concerning.)<br /><br />Another issue is how much the state will pay for transportation- what will it really cost. The problem here is that the state rates District's on efficiency, and penalize districts that are below their standards. We currently get 100% of what we are entitled to; it is not clear what would happen if we fall below 2 tiers, which we would, since some of our routes are over an hour. So far, due to our relatively high SPED and MKV populations, our uniquely large system, and large numbers of kids on Metro, they just can't find any other districts to compare with us, so they give us 100%-but they don't fund everything. <br /><br />All this makes me think two tiers is not likely anytime soon, even if McCleary funding kicks in, since I think it will largely go to funding the 20 minutes and smaller class sizes. I would be happy to be convinced otherwise- am I too pessimistic?<br /><br />Today, Bellevue provisionally passed 8:30 HS start times- they still have lots of details to work out, but they look committed to working it out. I know we have lots of problems and lots to work out to get to a fairer plan than what is currently on the table-but it could be done. Everyone sees what they are losing- please remember what is being gained, and what will be gained by every child in the district as they rise through the system.ProSleep Momnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56078552301896434622015-10-07T21:29:58.401-07:002015-10-07T21:29:58.401-07:00Got a survey from my kids ES due Friday. Do you su...<br />Got a survey from my kids ES due Friday. Do you support or not the change in tiers? I would rather my kids get home at a more convenient time than 2:30 but that isn't really what it's about. I DON'T WANT THAT KID TO SUFFER IN SECONDARY SCHOOL. That is the issue, and for that I will not voice an opinion now. <br /><br />-Do itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48771315693915089222015-10-07T19:43:53.476-07:002015-10-07T19:43:53.476-07:00Melissa,
It has been reported that the big hurdl...Melissa, <br /><br />It has been reported that the big hurdle for parents at the JAMS meeting was that Title 1 schools were being forced into the 3rd tier. The district thinks they are doing what those schools requested. Parents at the meeting think the district is being punitive to those schools. It seems to me that parents & staff at those schools should have more of a voice in their fate. If elementary schools prefer different tiers then it may be possible to accommodate them. If they all prefer the same tier then it is not possible. In that case I would give preference to the neediest schools where more families have fewer resources to address schedule issues. I suppose the argument could be made that it would be more fair to do it randomly, but Parents at the meeting seem to support protecting the high FRL schools. I agree with them on that. Of course, in the end, the district will do what it wants to, it always does.<br /><br />-Seen OutcomesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28289812850999584232015-10-07T18:52:31.365-07:002015-10-07T18:52:31.365-07:00Wait, a minute, Seen Outcomes. You advocate that ...Wait, a minute, Seen Outcomes. You advocate that high F/RL should get to pick their tier? I don't agree. Everyone is a parent with a life. The district should take care with those students most at-risk but that's the district's call, not a vote.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39473235538354268972015-10-07T17:25:56.452-07:002015-10-07T17:25:56.452-07:00SPE currently starts at 9:25 am which is similar t...SPE currently starts at 9:25 am which is similar to all the other schools in our area. Whichever way the times go, we don't want to be singled out for a completely different start time in our community. We do have a higher proportion of low income families than other schools in the area. It seems like a further disadvantage to isolate us like this. Ideally we'd all have an 8:30 start, but the District isn't giving us this option.<br /><br />We do support later start times for teenagers, as we know the scientific research supports this. That doesn't mean we can't advocate to be treated fairly on the elementary level, and to keep neighborhoods working together. <br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />SPE ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90491098047614935002015-10-07T17:12:35.985-07:002015-10-07T17:12:35.985-07:00I agree that high FRL elementaries should have fir...I agree that high FRL elementaries should have first pick of tiers. They should get what works best for their families. But it does not follow that the plan should be ditched. It is possible to still give title 1 schools their choice if other elementary communities are concerned enough about it to be willing to support moving their own school's proposed bell times. Then the message to the district would have been, 'yes we want later starts for teens & high FRL elementaries should have first choice of tiers'. That is not the impression that I got, but I wasn't at that JAMS meeting.<br /><br />-Seen OutcomesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82888303192058204492015-10-07T16:41:17.166-07:002015-10-07T16:41:17.166-07:00Seen outcomes,
I don't think you understood S...Seen outcomes,<br /><br />I don't think you understood SPE Parent's point.<br /><br />SPE P isn't against having a reasonable start for MS and HS. SPE P is saying that a difference of almost 2 hours start time will have a negative impact in building a community. <br /><br />I agree.<br /><br />I'm not and SPE but find it "convenient" (for lack of a better word) that the school with the highest FRL population is the one that has the different starting time.<br /><br />- LMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55714706291904179842015-10-07T14:34:08.397-07:002015-10-07T14:34:08.397-07:00SPE Parent,
Whether things stay as they are or mo...SPE Parent,<br /><br />Whether things stay as they are or move to later starts for teens, there will be elementaries on the 3rd tier. Do you think that by keeping teens at the early time your school will be guaranteed to stay at the same bell times as neighboring schools? Is the Sand Point parent group comfortable with the trade offs this imposes on teenagers? <br /><br />Teenagers will also have sacrifices in after school activities, work schedules & social schedules if bell times are changed. It will mean tremendous upheaval & certainly fewer options during a transition period. Activities that students have invested years in developing & are counting on for college applications will be impacted. Some will loose their jobs. Do you wonder why parents, schools nurses, children's hospital, UW sleep researchers, & high school teachers think it is worth it? My teen is, unusally, a lark. But the cost for many teens at the early start time is more grave than disrupting after school activities. For those teens, it seems worth it to me to make the sacrifice of changing bell times.<br /><br />- seen outcomesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67906968224638081512015-10-07T14:30:29.899-07:002015-10-07T14:30:29.899-07:00What about the elementary kids like mine who curre...What about the elementary kids like mine who currently have a 9.30 start? Lots of elementary schools currently have this and it's not the end of the world. The neighbor kids they play with go to a bunch of different schools (private/public, elementary/middle) with a bunch of different start time and end times. What SPE parent is talking about is not a new issue. Personally I would far rather have my ES kids start at their current 9.30 or even a 9.40 - it's not ideal but its much better that 7.50 which is what they would change to under the proposal. But I would support the change because I know it will be for the best for them once they reach secondary school with a later start time. What I really want is sensible, middle ground start times for all school (one for ES one for HS) and that will only come with a 2 tier bus.<br /><br />late starterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85756848620967260922015-10-07T14:20:44.256-07:002015-10-07T14:20:44.256-07:00Also just wanted to add that Sand Point was center...Also just wanted to add that Sand Point was center front, not center back. We got there early thinking we'd gotten good seats but we didn't get picked to speak even though we had our arms up the whole time...<br /><br />SPE ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79873211670021142822015-10-07T14:05:03.603-07:002015-10-07T14:05:03.603-07:00Just wanted to say that the Sand Point parents tha...Just wanted to say that the Sand Point parents that were there at the meeting did not get to speak much at all, which was disappointing because we worked so hard to get lots of parents out. We came to protest the fact that we are the only ones in our area of NE Seattle being assigned a 9:40 am start time, compared with our neighboring schools Wedgwood, View Ridge, Bryant, Thornton Creek and Laurelhurst all being given the 8 am start time. We do not want to be isolated from our community and we have been advocating to let the District know that we want to have the same start time as the other neighborhood schools, whether it ends up being 8 am or later. Our kids will be missing out on playdates, after school activities and other opportunities in the area if they are being released over 1.5 hrs after everyone else. It is really unfortunate that the meeting was cut off after only 30 mins of discussion, because there were so many good points being made and I would have loved to hear them all. <br /><br />SPE ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com