tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post2186498337119774625..comments2024-03-18T16:51:10.406-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Holy Cow! Not Just Education Cuts but EliminationsMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11554015889517203302011-01-26T17:39:24.640-08:002011-01-26T17:39:24.640-08:00The costs for international and montessori start u...The costs for international and montessori start up costs are specious at best. Because there are no line items in the overall budgets for textbooks (and/or textbook replacement) in general practice (no I am not kidding. Whenever SPS needs to quote start up costs for any type of program, the bulk of the cost that is identified is books. <br /><br />If books were accounted for in any reasonable fashion, then you would be able to compare whether or not the $100K for language was greater than, less than or the same as the start up costs or the ongoing maintenance costs for any program.kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73154822727112747942011-01-26T16:33:30.985-08:002011-01-26T16:33:30.985-08:00"But I see, ZB, that your argument has shifte..."But I see, ZB, that your argument has shifted. First it was that these programs couldn't be replicated. Now that you have been shown that they can be replicated, they cost money. "<br /><br />My question was, actually, motivated by an agreement that some programs can indeed be replicated (unlike Garfield, and APP, though it might be a program is also significantly a method of selecting a population of students). If so, it's reasonable, I think, to talk about how to replicate those programs, and what barriers might exist (I don't actually believe pigheadedness on the part of is a big part of the problem). <br /><br />I'm quite pleased to see such a discussion happening here. The startup costs for international schools seem surmountable, if they're in the 75-100K range and are not continuing costs. That kind of money can be found, from grants, and private fundraising. <br /><br />I would guess that a barrier to both language/montessori could be the availability of trained teachers.zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61384068001512355642011-01-26T13:10:44.175-08:002011-01-26T13:10:44.175-08:00dj: Montessori teachers don't cost extra money...dj: Montessori teachers don't cost extra money, but after pre-K, they are hard to come by. There are not many places that train and certify Montessori teachers past the pre-K level (though there IS one in Kirkland), so if a new school is being established, there may need to be funding for teacher training. There is an intensive summer program that can be done if a teacher is willing.<br /><br />When the Bagley program got started, the Principal (who had been at GH) managed to bring a couple of the teachers with her—leaving GH montessori 4-5 graders with a string of subs (non-Montessori) for a while. It may be better now as more schools offer Montessori.SolvayGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12709893209963350066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53663170448269608652011-01-26T13:06:29.315-08:002011-01-26T13:06:29.315-08:00I only know what I heard at McDonald.
She defin...I only know what I heard at McDonald. <br /><br />She definitely had a slide in her Powerpoint deck that showed $75K for the first year of implementation. I'm pretty sure that deck wasn't put together for the McDonald meeting, so I wouldn't be surprised if she presented it at a work session. <br /><br />Her comments at McDonald indicated she that was what she would want, not necessarily what all schools would get or have gotten.<br /><br />No one from the district said McDonald would get that sort of money (indeed they didn't seem to think McDonald would even get the usual start up funds), but we'll have to wait and see to know for sure.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37052797429635610742011-01-26T11:33:34.904-08:002011-01-26T11:33:34.904-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21580881490547594202011-01-26T08:44:18.263-08:002011-01-26T08:44:18.263-08:00"She'd like $75K to be given to a school ..."She'd like $75K to be given to a school the following year, but said that has never happened except at Ingraham."<br /><br />I'll go back and check but I believe in Board discussion on this issue at a Work Session said the foreign language immersion schools do get a little extra funding (like $75k). Karen Kodama would be the one to know for sure but I could swear that staff told the Board those schools got a little more. I'll check.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38475856220192200322011-01-25T16:14:01.840-08:002011-01-25T16:14:01.840-08:00When my daughter was in an SPS Montessori program,...When my daughter was in an SPS Montessori program, the materials were funded by parent donations and by a very modest amount of grant money (you needed the teacher anyway and that didn't cost extra $). It created a genuinely racially and socioeconomically diverse program with a waitlist at a school that was otherwise undersubscribed.<br /><br />But I see, ZB, that your argument has shifted. First it was that these programs couldn't be replicated. Now that you have been shown that they can be replicated, they cost money. Where are your kids in school again?djhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01720927162286657378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15578935099817364262011-01-25T15:57:40.067-08:002011-01-25T15:57:40.067-08:00Do language immersion or montessori cost money?
...<i>Do language immersion or montessori cost money? </i><br /><br />I don't know anything about montessori. <br /><br />I went to the McDonald meeting where Karen Kodama spoke about starting a new immersion school. <br /><br />She said in the past $100K was given for starting a school. She'd like $75K to be given to a school the following year, but said that has never happened except at Ingraham.<br /><br />Bree Dusseault thought there would be some money offered to start language immersion at McDonald but not $100K.<br /><br />There are some necessary costs involving buying some materials in the target languages, classroom libraries and such. <br /><br />Also the PTA at JSIS raises money every year to pay for instructional assistants in the immersion classes. <br /><br />Class size is very high. It was 31 at the start of first grade this year. <br /><br />I've been told before that JSIS has relatively high class sizes in the early grade because it is not necessarily easy to replace kids if some drop out.<br /><br />This large class size and the fact that the kids are learning a second language make the IA's a top priority for parent funding.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83119812486420319182011-01-25T15:18:17.756-08:002011-01-25T15:18:17.756-08:00Do language immersion or montessori cost money?
...Do language immersion or montessori cost money? <br /><br />Spectrum doesn't, except to the extent that you can't serve your student population that way. <br /><br />I don't think the Gates foundation is going to cough up funds to back-fill what WA taxpayers aren't willing to pay, anyway. Given the amount of money that the Gates-income tax proposal was going to fund, I did consider whether it should have been re-configured as a say, 10 million dollar tax on WA billionaires. I wonder if that would have passed.zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27785661893124635632011-01-25T15:08:37.716-08:002011-01-25T15:08:37.716-08:00State and local political blog Publicola reports t...State and local political blog Publicola reports that 1500 teachers will lose their jobs, statewide, next year because of K-4 class size funding allocations yanked in Olympia today.<br /><br />A conservative think tank tried to defend the decision that class size does not matter via the comments. A couple of people countered.<br /><br /><a href="http://publicola.com/2011/01/25/what-that-means-is-1500-teachers-will-be-laid-off/#disqus_thread" rel="nofollow">See for yourselves</a>.cascadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07790011815664752047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7252410364148880942011-01-25T14:24:45.227-08:002011-01-25T14:24:45.227-08:00As are Montessori and IB, and Spectrum in areas wh...As are Montessori and IB, and Spectrum in areas where there are wait lists.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82112056858055700982011-01-25T13:36:31.069-08:002011-01-25T13:36:31.069-08:00That would be effective,if programs were actually ...<i>That would be effective,if programs were actually replicable without the student population they serve. But they're not. </i><br /><br />Language immersion is.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42914384515898278232011-01-25T13:35:38.236-08:002011-01-25T13:35:38.236-08:00I think something like $6,000,0000 per year would ...<i>I think something like $6,000,0000 per year would cover it including the 18 schools that have been covered by the state.</i><br /><br />If it's really only $6 mil, maybe we could all just cough up a dollar.<br /><br />There's more the 6 million people in the state.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20942861051081149732011-01-25T13:18:43.164-08:002011-01-25T13:18:43.164-08:00"That's exactly the wrong attitude. The s..."That's exactly the wrong attitude. The school district should be expanding successful and popular programs, not seeing them as a problem."<br /><br />That would be effective,if programs were actually replicable without the student population they serve. But they're not. So Garfield's "program" can't be replicated without the students it serves. <br /><br />In fact, they're trying to make a less popular school popular (Ingraham) by trying to attract a population & and trying to provide a program.zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85561900765056317752011-01-25T12:13:24.981-08:002011-01-25T12:13:24.981-08:00I got an email less than an hour ago that says tha...I got an email less than an hour ago that says that the Senate's Ways and Means Committee is discussing the HC funding bill recently passed by the House TODAY.<br /><br />There is still time to email Senator Ed Murray, the committee chair, and other members of the committee if you are interested in having the current year's HC money NOT cut from the current budget (ie, you don't want SPS to have to pay back the money it's already spent on testing and AL services so far this year).Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54540188367621981832011-01-25T09:39:11.801-08:002011-01-25T09:39:11.801-08:00I think it's crazy that Washington doesn't...I think it's crazy that Washington doesn't fund full day kindergarten. Maybe we could get Gates to pay for that for a year or two? I think something like $6,000,0000 per year would cover it including the 18 schools that have been covered by the state.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82479469637889839172011-01-25T08:31:04.238-08:002011-01-25T08:31:04.238-08:00David, could not agree with you more.
But instead...David, could not agree with you more.<br /><br />But instead of trying to replicate successful programs or figure out creative ways to give kids more access to them (the split schedule suggestion at Garfield, for example, or opening more hugely-popular language immersion schools in areas that do not have them), the district, and some posters here, seem to think that the right approach is to try to incentive or force people out of popular, successful programs and into unpopular, unsuccessful programs in the hopes that somehow the mere presence of those people in those schools will improve the schools.<br /><br />You can see how well that approach is working even to date with the NSAP, where the popular schools are now stuffed to the gills while the unpopular schools continue to be underenrolled. Pretty soon the "attendance area" for Rainier Beach will be the entire south end.<br /><br />APP is a popular, successful program that has the side benefit of keeping parents in public schools while drawing them off of popular schools (as APP attendance is tilted towards kids from schools that are popular, not unpopular as suggested upthread), and it provides transportation subsidies for *other* kids getting transportation to non-APP programs such as, oh, say, TOPS. You would think people would view it as win-win-win, but, not so much.djhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01720927162286657378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68641516038691959592011-01-25T08:02:31.965-08:002011-01-25T08:02:31.965-08:00ZB writes, "Since the popular schools are ove...ZB writes, "Since the popular schools are over crowded now ... the school district doesn't have much of an incentive to keep students in those schools."<br /><br />That's exactly the wrong attitude. The school district should be expanding successful and popular programs, not seeing them as a problem. <br /><br />Aside from the basic idea of building on successes, there is also the fact that more students yields more per-pupil funding from the state and more popular support for local funding. Attracting students away from private schools means getting motivated parents with resources back into our public schools, which helps everyone in our public schools.<br /><br />If the central office currently sees there job as making their most attractive and successful schools less attractive and successful so that they have fewer students, then something is seriously broken. Instead, the central office should be doing everything they can to build on and expand on programs and schools that are attractive and successful.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44836825836100450792011-01-25T06:57:42.041-08:002011-01-25T06:57:42.041-08:00Why are we so provincial when it comes to assessin...Why are we so provincial when it comes to assessing the state of our advanced learning programs? We always hear comparisons--sometimes favorable, sometimes not--to Shoreline, Renton, or Bellevue. Meanwhile, no one mentions how paltry our programs are, particularly at the high school level, compared with cities like New York, San Francisco, or Boston.<br /><br />--Wants to live in a world class cityAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-29218658765665082732011-01-25T06:46:54.450-08:002011-01-25T06:46:54.450-08:00"That's one hilarious issue; even if we d..."That's one hilarious issue; even if we did get, say, 5% of the private school kids back, could SPS even handle the influx? I doubt it."<br /><br />I think you're right. And, in fact, as we know, SPS is offering incentives to get students to leave Garfield. So my guess is the worry that students will leave for private schools really isn't high on SPS's list of worries right now, as long as these children are leaving from popular schools. And, those children are effectively leaving from popular schools because we know that folks followed a pattern if they were in areas with unpopular schools: to look for option/choice/APP access to more popular schools. If that failed, they'd look for private options. As the SPS squeezed the opportunity to escape to more popular schools, those parents go directly to private schools. <br /><br />Since the popular schools are over crowded now (because the NSAP means that enrollment can't be capped but must stretch to fit the group of students who are guaranteed access to the school), the school district doesn't have much of an incentive to keep students in those schools, unless so many leave that it's no longer popular.zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91241029308752087892011-01-24T22:31:52.638-08:002011-01-24T22:31:52.638-08:00According to Shoreline's website:
Once a stud...According to Shoreline's website:<br /><br /><i>Once a student is eligible for the program (tested in), they are considered to be "highly capable" until they graduate. Shoreline receives highly capable funding from the state on a per-student basis. These funds are dispersed to the schools that house the students who have been determined to be "highly capable" (self-contained as well as students who stay in the general education program). As students move to the secondary level, the funding is allocated to their respective middle school or high school and used to support honors-level materials and activities.</i><br /><br />My understanding is that the Shoreline program is self-contained in elementary, then students are supported in appropriate honors level classes in middle school. Middle school starts in 7th grade.<br /><br />Just sayin'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8491492032008427942011-01-24T21:05:54.413-08:002011-01-24T21:05:54.413-08:00Public School Mom, what part of "there is NO ...Public School Mom, what part of "there is NO APP program in SPS" do you not get? APP in high school IS honors, AP and Running Start. All the district gave APP kids who came from Washington (and now Hamilton) is the opportunity to move as a group to Garfield in order to support a higher number of AP classes. That's it.<br /><br />Bellevue is the one with the gifted high school program.<br /><br />And you were the one who said there's weren't gifted programs in middle school and then you go and list a lot of them. Interesting what you learn when you do the research.<br /><br />Anne, I think once every address in Seattle was attached to a school, many private school parents gave it a look. I also think some of them tried Garfield, saw what an overcrowded, under-prepared mess it was the first week and promptly fled. I'm sure the word got out.<br /><br />That's one hilarious issue; even if we did get, say, 5% of the private school kids back, could SPS even handle the influx? I doubt it.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69031571196844000772011-01-24T20:53:32.712-08:002011-01-24T20:53:32.712-08:00That's really interesting about the private sc...That's really interesting about the private school application surge. I also heard that Seattle Prep was up 40% from last year...Is it that Garfield is so crowded?annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06891398273398141400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53715523729135309442011-01-24T20:22:32.512-08:002011-01-24T20:22:32.512-08:00mint chocolate chip: I think you have misunderstoo...mint chocolate chip: I think you have misunderstood me. I am a SPED parent. I have a child whose IEP is on the verge, now, of collapse, because the space he needs at his seriously overcrowded high school to have it implemented is being taken away from the SPED department, due to the overcrowding from NSAP. I am not saying that SPED kids shouldn't be in regular classes. I am saying that they, like APP kids, need to be taught with pedagogy and classes (and accmmodations) that meet their needs. <br /><br />But I will not do the divide and conquer thing. I will NOT throw APP kids under the bus because my SPED kid is getting royally shafted at Garfield. They are ALL our kids. I have seen gifted kids -- the really off the chart brilliant ones --fail -- as in drop out of high school and NEVER (well, at least 10 years later, and I still am watching) recover -- after being denied access to gifted education. Were there other issues? Maybe, I don't know. But it was no different than the fear of maybe seeing my own SPED kid, with his now maybe impossible to implement IEP, struggle with a District that has its priorities screwed up. "Basic ed" for my SPED kid means access to regular and honors classes with accommodations that are going away. Basic ed for APP kids means accelerated content with access to similarly gifted minds to learn with. We may lose both. But I refuse to not fight for both. <br /><br />At least, with APP, I sort of know what to advocate for. SPED in this District seems so horrendously and completely screwed up, and is kept so secred by the staff, that I don't even know where to start. Really, mint chocolate chip -- if you do -- tell me. Because I am ready to rattle some cages.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59742264103877051912011-01-24T20:20:24.148-08:002011-01-24T20:20:24.148-08:00Melissa, why do you support APP in high school? I...Melissa, why do you support APP in high school? I don't have an APP kid so maybe I just don't get it?? Most High schools offer honors classes, AP, IB, or Running start. All of these are advanced, college level, courses. Why couldn't an advanced high school students needs be met in some combination of these courses? <br /><br />As for what other districts offer, I'm afraid Bellevue is an outlier. Most offer nothing for the highly capable (other than AP, IB, Running Start) past middle school.<br /><br />Renton: highly capable program only offered through middle school.<br /><br />Shoreline: Only offered through Elementary school.<br /><br />Tacoma: Offered through middle school only<br /><br />Mercer Island: Only offered through middle school. Their website suggests AP courses for high school.<br /><br />Edmonds: Only offered through middle school. Their website suggests, AP, IB, and running start for high school.<br /><br />Northshore: only offered through middle school. Website suggests AP, IB, and running start for high school<br /><br />Federal Way: Only offered through middle school. They suggest AP, IB, The TAF Academy, or Caimbridge Academey for highly capable kids in high school. TAF, and Caimbridge are rigorous academies, like STEM, but not dedicated to the highly capable.<br /><br />So, yes, maybe Bellevue offers an "advanced program" in high school it's definitely not the norm.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.com