tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post2795317709384384481..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Teach For America - You Might Want to Pay AttentionMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger154125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79724413864751460192018-11-15T08:23:37.805-08:002018-11-15T08:23:37.805-08:00Please join me today as I make impact, as you are ...Please join me today as I make impact, as you are planning for Christmas don't forget that their kids outside who are homeless that need help, I'm soliciting for your assistance today to join me as I plan to feed five children for this Christmas and I want to also send them back to school your support is needed nothing is too small nothing is too big for this purpose, if you are interested in joining me, email me at charitydonation8@gmail.com.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13113192659213764907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57196926435157577142010-10-13T12:56:19.053-07:002010-10-13T12:56:19.053-07:00Maybe TFA provides an intelligent corps of teacher...Maybe TFA provides an intelligent corps of teacher advocates who have experienced first-hand the challenges facing our nation's teachers.<br /><br />Or they're bozos. nice.<br /><br />Anyways, I don't think 35% retention isn't all that bad given (1) they go to 'undesireable' schools and (2) the clear animosity shown to them by the teachers who comment on this blog - not a very supportive group of co-workers.<br /><br />In my opinion, they can't screw up our kids any worse than MGJ. I'm more interested in the budgeting. I wasn't aware they got paid the same salary as a teacher.SC Parentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28684903349289234052010-10-10T20:22:33.352-07:002010-10-10T20:22:33.352-07:00One excellent reason for recent college grads to j...One excellent reason for recent college grads to join Teach for America right now ... the economy. Who else is going to guarantee you a job?<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59140553113260993542010-10-09T11:32:55.668-07:002010-10-09T11:32:55.668-07:00LA Teacher, great, great thoughts. Thanks for writ...LA Teacher, great, great thoughts. Thanks for writing all that.<br /><br />"I'm not suggesting that I and other teachers lack credibility among the general public. On the contrary, in my interactions with parents and voters, I find that I have plenty of credibility. It's only among people in the media, politicians, and rich people that I lack a voice."<br /><br />I think this is very true. In just the experience with working on opposing this levy and having teachers working with us and lending their front-line voices, I feel like we are reaching people. I think it is also somewhat hard for politicians to ignore that we have teachers speaking up.<br /><br />"No teacher buy-in, no education reform."<br /><br />And this is a point I have been trying to make speaking to various groups. If the Superintendent has a no-confidence vote against her of 99% and one of her duties is to lead and motivate the teaching corps, how can she do this part of her job well? Has anyone heard from the Board or the Superintendent how she plans to address this issue? Or will she pretend it never happened? <br /><br />No teacher buy-in and all the "strategic" plans in the world will not take hold.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24402306867353342962010-10-09T09:22:08.189-07:002010-10-09T09:22:08.189-07:00I checked out TFA's Web site and read between ...I checked out TFA's Web site and read between the lines a bit. They've had massive growth since 2005, and I think their mission has expanded from serving high-need classrooms to <i>creating a market</i> for their own recruits. ("And so, in 2005 we launched an ambitious growth plan, resolving to build a truly effective movement to eliminate educational inequity by becoming bigger and better. Reaching these goals will enable us to realize the potential of our mission and theory of change.") - from http://www.teachforamerica.org/about/our_growth_plan.htmformerteachernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14897466684467989342010-10-09T09:17:08.984-07:002010-10-09T09:17:08.984-07:00Now for the academic part.
The idea that we shoul...Now for the academic part.<br /><br />The idea that we should try TFA because we need an all-of-the-above approach is illogical. We do not have infinite resources and infinite opportunities to experiment. We have to work within limits. As such, we have to make choices. Choices are either based on criteria or they aren't. If they aren't, then the choices are arbitrary or random. We can debate whether our criteria for hiring teachers include experience, education, youth, non-union membership or whatever you please. But "let's-just-try-it" is not a criterion, and as policy it is deeply irrational.<br /><br />So what do we do to improve education? There is no shortage of research on the subject, and there is no shortage of successful models for improving education. However, whatever model you choose, rule number one is:<br /><br />No teacher buy-in, no education reform. If policymakers refuse to listen to us, they will never improve education.<br /><br />Rule number two:<br /><br />High academic standards and a low dropout rate are linked, even in schools with high minority populations.<br /><br />UC Santa Barbara Gevirtz Graduate School of Education has been leading research on the dropout problem for years. What we need to do to improve the graduation rate and academic achievement is not a secret.<br /><br />Rule number three:<br /><br />Arguably the best single method for addressing the achievement gap is through summer learning programs.<br /><br />Johns Hopkins University has been leading research on this subject for years. This research is also not a secret and is readily available.<br /><br />Rule number four:<br /><br />Genuine school reform requires a long-term commitment that addresses funding, community involvement, the social status of the teaching profession, teacher training, education equity, social justice, health care, and a host of related issues.<br /><br />We can't expect to import solutions from different social contexts, but the experience of Finland is suggestive and bears close examination.<br /><br />Because I am a teacher, I am a solution-oriented person who, every day, is solving a host of practical problems in education. Only a teacher can say that.Mr. Edelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16100732082087823318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67977848873167884112010-10-09T08:40:33.225-07:002010-10-09T08:40:33.225-07:00Now that I've finished with my anticipatory se...Now that I've finished with my anticipatory set, I'll proceed to a short anecdotal account, which will be followed with a very short academic lesson.<br /><br />My first two years of teaching I taught reluctant learners. I enjoyed it. It was deeply fulfilling. It was important work for which I was recognized. I felt rewarded. Then the district RIF'd me. Unnecessarily. When I was rehired, I was brought into a completely new job. I enjoy my current assignment, and I love my students. But I'm not teaching reluctant learners anymore. Why? Because of the instability created by the district. It had nothing to do with wanting to escape a tough assignment. If I had the opportunity to teach reluctant learners again, I would do it <em>if the district demonstrated a long-term commitment to supporting and funding teachers who do this work.</em> But that's not where the district is putting its money. It would rather test students and play with data. Guess how many days our library is scheduled to be closed this year due to testing of all varieties? Forty-one days. That, friends, is approaching 1/4 of the year when our library is closed to students and our librarians are serving as test-monitors. Think about how that displaces curriculum. Is that good for reluctant learners?<br /><br />Seattle University's Master in Teaching program specializes in social justice education and trains teachers to work with reluctant learners. I have a colleague who works in an elementary school in the south end. She told me this summer that she is tired of hearing her school called "low-performing." She is not a low-performing teacher. She has not left her job. She is committed to working with her students of low socio-economic status. She is insulted by language people use to describe her school. The blame-the-teacher atmosphere created by ed reformers and politicians and the MSM is bad for her morale. The idea that her school could somehow improve with the presence of TFA neophytes is ludicrous. There is no shortage of teachers with her credentials out there--committed and trained teachers with Masters in Teaching from a social justice education program.Mr. Edelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16100732082087823318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20057560039547948022010-10-09T08:12:30.412-07:002010-10-09T08:12:30.412-07:00I am a teacher. May I speak? My hand is raised.
H...I am a teacher. May I speak? My hand is raised.<br /><br />How many of you have taught reluctant learners who are in danger of failing to graduate? I have.<br /><br />How many of you have, as a mentor teacher, trained student teachers to teach reluctant learners? I have.<br /><br />How many of you have published, in conjunction with colleagues, a paper on support strategies for early-career teachers? I have.<br /><br />One would think that my experiences would count for something in the public debate about how to, for example, reach reluctant learners, and help them to graduate and go on to college. But I can tell you that politicians, the School Board, and so-called education advocates don't listen to people like me. And I'm politically active.<br /><br />I'm not suggesting that I and other teachers lack credibility among the general public. On the contrary, in my interactions with parents and voters, I find that I have plenty of credibility. It's only among people in the media, politicians, and rich people that I lack a voice.<br /><br />And that, ladies and gentlemen, I do not forgive.Mr. Edelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16100732082087823318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30018861479259320202010-10-09T00:51:33.581-07:002010-10-09T00:51:33.581-07:00Melissa Westbrook said... The cred that some say T...<i>Melissa Westbrook said... The cred that some say TFA has is that they can bring more bilingual teachers, math and science teachers (in 5 weeks they're ready to teach math and science and all of them majored in either field?), and bring large numbers of teachers of color.</i><br /><br />Actually, I've read that one of the criticisms of TFA is that their "recruits" are primarily white, and NOT teachers of color. Anyone have any stats on that?<br /><br />The idea of a bunch of young, white Ivy League grads breezing in and out of our most diverse and challenging schools to "teach" poor kids of color for two years does not sound like a particularly enlightened plan to me.<br /><br />Teaching should not be treated as just another patch on someone's Boy/Girl Scout sash.<br /><br />Here's another detail -- apparently TFA is just a way to train an elite group of 'future leaders,' according to this article in U.S. News & World Report: http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/k-12/2008/03/05/what-is-teach-for-america-really-like.html<br /><br />Note the creepy use of the word "embedded" and the stellar example given of a TFA grad who goes on to other things -- Michelle Rhee, D.C. school chancellor who is so hated by D.C. voters that they just ousted her employer Mayor Adrian Fenty, and possibly her with him.<br /><br /><i>"Now that the early corps members are approaching their early 40s, we're starting to see signs that these leaders that have been embedded in society are starting to rise up. If you troll the education reform movements, the big nonprofits, and philanthropies, you'll see TFA alum[s] in their ranks. I think a real marker was laid down last spring when TFA alum Michelle Rhee was named chancellor of the D.C. schools."</i><br /><br />Which leaves me asking: Who is TFA really trying to help -- the poor kids in the struggling schools, or the elite TFA "recruits" who use their TFA stint as a feel-good resume-stuffer and springboard to their <i>real</i> careers?<br /><br /><i>-- sp.</i>suep.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17281578510716234624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49654338205465768172010-10-09T00:32:44.853-07:002010-10-09T00:32:44.853-07:00If we were to take the teachers in the low perform...If we were to take the teachers in the low performing schools and put them in higher performing schools, might it be possible that suddenly those "bad" teachers are "good?" Consider how much content/how many standards are taught when a teacher has to provide food, supplies, and remove other barriers to learning before they can begin the lesson. With those barriers removed, imagine how much better a teacher can be and how much less energy it takes to do their job (not just physical energy, but emotional energy- it ages one tremendously).<br /><br />Having been there and done that, I would have to say that $2000 is no where near enough money. Double my salary and then I would consider it. <br /><br />Additionally, The idea of charter schools has entered my mind several times in my career. When a person comes from private industry with head hunters who come and recruit you away from your company, where talent goes to the highest bidder, getting paid based on some communistic system of credits and years regardless of talent is insulting. "But teachers teach for love, not money." Tell it to the mortgage company and Sallie Mae. I cannot pay them with "love." I also could say that if I was working with an easy population, these thoughts would not have entered my mind because getting paid would have felt more like highway robbery than receiving scrip for use at the company store.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong. I do love what I do and have entered into the profession knowing that the salary is what it is. Thank goodness for the long breaks, because without them I would have worked myself to death years ago. I earn the right to the extended summer time off- and I am not paid for it. We are paid for the days we work (@7.5 hours, though we all know the "good teachers" spend far more than 7.5 hours a day doing their job)only. Remember that. Since it had been asked, "Is $2000 enough," I am answering in a way that might attempt to commodify the "noble cause" and "love" factors of the position. I am sure you all can quantify the value of your talent. The open market reigns for the majority of you. I have no idea how to begin to estimate the value of mine in a free market. Then there are the intangibles of the job. How much is love worth?ttlnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036145163804967748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88141043289140339792010-10-09T00:25:41.908-07:002010-10-09T00:25:41.908-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.ttlnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036145163804967748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75915556522146572872010-10-08T23:23:01.707-07:002010-10-08T23:23:01.707-07:00Next, Seattle Citizen asks for statistics to prove...Next, Seattle Citizen asks for statistics to prove my assertion that there aren't enough "excellent teachers" in the worst schools? (I did not say, as Seattle Citizen claims, "that 'excellent teachers' don't seem to want to teach in 'failing schools.' ")<br /><br />There is a difference between "excellence" and "experienced," but since an early commenter described TFA teachers are "inexperienced bozos," I think we can equate excellence with experience in this context.<br /><br />There has been a lot of research about teacher experience (length of teaching career) in schools with high vs. low test scores. The term of art is "teacher retention": how often do teachers who work in low-performing schools stay there or leave for higher-performing schools? <br /><br />Google finds me a very relevant March 2005 study from the UW's School of Education about districts in Washington State - that is, very local data. (http://depts.washington.edu/ctpmail/PDFs/TeacherRetention.pdf). <br /><br />The study looked at how often teachers stay or leave schools or districts. And, conveniently for this discussion, it also examines the correlation between teacher retention and school or student performance. Here are two key conclusions (copied from p. vi):<br /><br />• "Teacher retention is related to the composition of the school’s student population — in particular to the poverty level and racial make-up of students. Schools serving a greater number of students in poverty retain fewer of their teachers after five years. Schools with a greater percentage of White students tend to retain a greater percentage of their teachers at the same school after five years. Schools serving a larger proportion of African-<br />American students retain fewer of their teachers across the<br />same period.<br /><br />• "In a mutually reinforcing pattern, school poverty, retention and school performance are linked to one another. Poverty rates are strongly associated with student performance. In some districts, higher performance (on measures of mathematics and reading) is<br />associated with both lower poverty and higher retention rates of<br />both experienced and novice teachers."<br /><br />The detailed statistical analysis (starting p. 29) makes another conclusion on p. 32: In Seattle, "the pattern is consistent and easy to spot: teacher retention is negatively associated with both poverty rates and WASL reading and math scores. That is, schools with the lowest teacher retention rates have the highest poverty rates and the lowest WASL scores." <br /><br />In making these points, I am not criticizing Seattle teachers who choose to work in one school or another. I am not suggesting that all teachers lack idealism or a desire to help needy children. <br /><br />I am asserting that Seattle's worst schools don't have enough experienced (or excellent) teachers, and I think this data pretty clearly backs me up.<br /><br />On a related point, this same study found that 37% of Seattle's newest teachers stay in the profession after four years - at any school, not just good or bad schools. If it's true that only 35% of TFAers continue after two years, that doesn't seem like such a massive difference to me.Jessicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66601731241918065302010-10-08T21:59:18.528-07:002010-10-08T21:59:18.528-07:00Seattle Citizen writes: "please explain to me...Seattle Citizen writes: "please explain to me how a "school fails" and not the individuals in it. Does not every school have success, also?<br /><br />In the late 1990s, I wrote a news article about an elementary school in Queens NY where 8 percent of 4th graders were reading at grade level. 99 percent of the students qualified for free/reduced lunch. Most of the students lived in nearby housing projects. Many of the children's parents had attended that school in the previous 15 or so years and were similarly near-illiterate. <br /><br />This was, by any definition I can think of, a failing school - and it had failed generations of students and families. No, that 8% reading proficiency did not qualify as success.<br /><br />The NYC schools and teachers union agreed on new rules for hiring in this and similarly terrible schools. A new, energetic and determined principal was given a slightly higher budget, and she hired an almost entirely new staff of teachers who committed to stay in the school for at least three years in return for bonus pay. The school also began extraordinarily structured literacy and math programs that involved very little creatity. Within 3 years after this principal's arrival, 22 percent of 4th graders were reading at grade level.<br /><br />I just looked at the stats at the school and the progress is astonishing. The same principal is still there, and the annual student attendance rate is 91%. 65% of 4th graders are meeting English criteria and 84% are meeting math standards. <br /><br />This is no longer a "failing school" and it took wholesale change - not incremental change - to turn the ship around. <br /><br />The student population and poverty didn't change. The school's leadership and teachers changed dramatically, and they stopped making excuses for what wasn't happening or what couldn't be done. <br /><br />Was this a "reformist agenda"? It was an intensely practical agenda that didn't rely on small, individual successes to make anyone feel better about the previous overall failure.Jessicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90147058291791556692010-10-08T15:28:00.613-07:002010-10-08T15:28:00.613-07:00Jessica, what I am trying to rebut, in case I'...Jessica, what I am trying to rebut, in case I've not been clear, is your assertion that "excellent teachers" don't seem to want to teach in "failing schools."<br /><br />Where do you get this from? Do you have some statistics to back it up? If you don't, you're merely mouthing platitudes, something you've heard. I know all sorts of excellent teachers working in all sorts of schools with all sorts of students.<br /><br />Conversely, it would make perfect sense, under the new evaluation metric, for teachers to NOT want to work in schools with a higher proportion of students who are struggling, as it will ding their evaluations where those evaluations use test scores. It would be in their professional interest to "run to the top", to find a placement where there are few strugglers, or give struggling students the boot, as some charters seem to be doing to increase their test scores. Hmmm.<br /><br />Please define "excellent teacher."<br />Please tell us how you know they avoid "failing schools."<br />Please define "failing schools."<br /><br />Thanks!seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77146678512244305302010-10-08T15:20:54.663-07:002010-10-08T15:20:54.663-07:00Jessica, please explain to me how a "school f...Jessica, please explain to me how a "school fails" and not the individuals in it. Does not every school have success, also?<br /><br />What is your definition of a "failing school"?seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80620492333461066372010-10-08T13:57:00.562-07:002010-10-08T13:57:00.562-07:00If Seattle Citizen won't acknowledge the exist...If Seattle Citizen won't acknowledge the existence of "failing schools," then I guess we aren't going to find much common ground on this subject! <br /><br />Also, you seem determined to view any criticism of "under-performing" (is that a better word?) schools or their staff as a slight on all teachers. Sigh. Perhaps other readers are more discerning than that. <br /><br />I am surprised that Seattle Citizen disputes my point that there "aren't enough excellent teachers for failing schools." This is exactly why many urban school districts offer incentive pay to experienced teachers to transfer from high-achieving schools to "failing" schools. (Here's a Feb 2010 story in the Boston Globe about this: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/05/10/mass_hunting_for_star_teachers/)<br /><br />In its new contract, Seattle takes a less-assertive approach, offering incentive pay of $2k to teachers who (a) work in lowest-performing schools and (b) aren't already under an improvement plan. <br /><br />On this point, here's an open question for high-quality teachers who read this blog: Do you think $2000 will motivate you or your colleagues to move to or stay in Seattle's low-performing schools?Jessicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24355005130212341772010-10-08T08:42:01.664-07:002010-10-08T08:42:01.664-07:00On the subject of cheap, alternative sources of te...On the subject of cheap, alternative sources of teachers (which Washington now allows), see this piece about the Louisiana situation:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/splc-fights-for-guestworker-teachers-defrauded-in-international-labor-trafficking" rel="nofollow">Guestworker Teachers Defrauded in International Labor Trafficking Scheme</a><br /><br />as someone on the Miseducation Nation facebook page asked:<br /><br />"H1-B guest workers - teachers from 2002 to 2006 up from<br />14,943 to 19,393 Is this where the new CHEAP teachers will come from<br />for charters? WHY do we have to go off shore for teachers? Is this how<br />they will try to break the unions as they advance the charter school<br />agenda?"<br /><br /><a href="http://www.facebook.com/MiseducationNation" rel="nofollow">Miseducation Nation</a>Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-29899547738678359772010-10-08T07:17:08.372-07:002010-10-08T07:17:08.372-07:00Oops, last comment I made had "copy" of ...Oops, last comment I made had "copy" of Jessica's comments I worked from on a doc I copied it to, instead of my response. Here's my response:<br /><br />Jessica, I'm suspicious of "reformist ideology" because it does not recognize existing excellence or all the things that have been happening over the decades that are NOT "status quo." What status quo are you talking about? Teachers innovate, students change, laws change, curricula changes...constant change.<br /><br />You write that "most failing schools have been failing for many years or even decades." I am suspicious also of this bizarre claim that "schools fail." Schools do not fail, some students and some staff fail. When people say "failing school" (based exclusively on standardized test scores, which do not recognize all sorts of successes that happen outside their parameters) this allows them to ignore the successes. In every failing school there are things that work, students learning, staff teaching...Your model ("failing schools") is being used to "restructure" entire schools without looking at the successes and thereby rolling right over them, ignoring them, in favor of "new and shiny" (as if what is going in buildings every day ISN'T new, as if it's always "status quo"...) and the new and shiney erases, wipes out, the successes that are happening on individual levels everywhere. <br />"High turnover and less-experienced teachers"? Then why, oh why, would we want non-teachers with five weeks training, who will likely move on to other careers in two years?<br />We don't need "all of the above" to find partial solutions that "might" add up to success. We already know what works - wrap around services, addressing individual needs, helping teachers develop creative and interesting connections to students...we DON'T need more testing, cheaper "teachers" and canned curriculum. We don't need a charter to do any of the good things we need to do to support children in the community, the students in the schools. Besides, their are children in ALL schools who need support, and charters don't deal with these students one little bit. Only those students in charters get attention? Great. This is more of the "failing school" or "successful school" perspective that ignores individual students and staff and wipes clean success in favor of what is more and more often proving to be bad pedagogy.<br /><br />Teachers, many of them, teache precisely because they have the "desire to contribute to society" We don't need TFA to bring that to teaching.<br /><br />What do you mean there "aren't enough excellent teachers for failing schools"? There you go again (thanks, Gipper!) slighting teachers. If a teacher isn't "excellent enough" for any given school, well, their admin can evaluate them and either make them excellent or fire them, whereupon another teacher can step up. TFA does nothing to change this equation. You seem to be suggesting that teachers just want the "soft jobs" with "easy" students - As I wrote above, teachers teach, and many chose the profession to help those who struggle.<br />You end by saying it's harder for struggling schools to keep and attract "excellent teachers". Prove it. On what do you base this statement? And then, I ask, so we should just put in "teachers" with five weeks experience? Wouldn't happen at Roosevelt, we shouldn't do it at some school with a large proportion of struggling students. We should, instead, address those students as the unique individuals they are, instead of Ones or Twos on HSPE, 186 or 195 on MAP, "Black" and therefore "struggling," "White" and therefore "not struggling." We need to NOT look at broad generalizations and look, instead at human beings.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54265773290821687792010-10-08T07:15:09.174-07:002010-10-08T07:15:09.174-07:00Seattle citizen, lots of points to discuss. First,...Seattle citizen, lots of points to discuss. First, I completely agree that the Board and Supt seem intent on sneaky maneuvers in many realms. Melissa and Charlie and others on this blog are very effective watchdogs and deserve massive thanks for their efforts on behalf of SPS families. <br /><br />Moving on, Seattle Citizen is suspicious of "reformist ideology." As opposed to... a "pro-education" ideology? A "status-quo" ideology? A "professional teacher committed to a 30-year career" ideology? I think this focus on ideology is stale and doesn't move the ball. <br /><br />Most failing schools have been failing for many years or even decades. They also typically have higher teacher turnover and less-experienced teachers than successful schools. And I'll repeat, in these schools, we need an "all of the above" approach to find partial solutions that might, one day, add up to progress. <br /><br />So instead of focusing on "pro" or "anti" (charter, TFA, union, phonics, whatever) arguments, my question is, if something works in one school, can it work elsewhere? Could it work in a failing Seattle public school? <br /><br />You offer an excellent idea: "Let's offer wrap-around services like the reformer's pet charter, Harlem Zone, but without the charter." If it's working, why condemn the charter aspect of it?<br /><br />Teacher quality and certification: There are excellent, average and bad teachers (and all shades of gray in between) and your citation of 4 million teachers proves the point. Is it possible to find 4 million "excellent" or "good" people in any profession, let alone one that requires reading and math education, an understanding of child behavior, social work, a desire to contribute to society -- plus, in failing schools, the creativity, energy, idealism and persistence to work with families and children who struggle for basic necessities?<br /><br />Seattle Citizen says "how dare" I say that "teachers aren't interested in working with poor students." I clearly haven't said that, Seattle Citizen. I'm saying there aren't ENOUGH excellent teachers for failing schools, and if TFA can supply some of them, let's open the door and if, as Eric M. says, 65% of TFAers leave after two years, that still means 35% commit to more.<br /><br />Lastly, several posters have asked why TFA shouldn't be inflicted on schools like Roosevelt or Lakeside. It's a legitimate question that, to some, implies a conspiracy against the poor. <br />The somewhat obvious answer is, "supply and demand." It's harder for failing schools to attract and keep their best teachers, while successful schools have have more applicants than available positions.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51285954002954865852010-10-08T05:59:34.026-07:002010-10-08T05:59:34.026-07:00A bright, energetic teacher with, say, a Masters i...A bright, energetic teacher with, say, a Masters in Teaching from Seattle University's social justice program<br /><br />vs.<br /><br />A bright, energetic teacher with five weeks of training.<br /><br />And there are plenty of recent graduates from SU who are looking for work and would gladly teach in any school in Seattle with an open position.<br /><br />So why TFA? Why not SU?<br /><br />Or, to put this another way: in Finland, where they've already done education reform, teachers receive <em>three years</em> of intensive training. They went in the precise opposite direction that the USA is going: more local control, fewer standardized tests, more teacher training, a general elevation of the profession of teaching.<br /><br />I would love to see some evidence-based education policymaking in the USA. But alas--ed reformers in this country seem to think their zeal is sufficient justification for their policies.Mr. Edelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16100732082087823318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88123453394298084572010-10-07T22:37:09.904-07:002010-10-07T22:37:09.904-07:00"If it's working, why condemn the charter..."If it's working, why condemn the charter aspect of it?"<br /><br />I think the question is more "How do we duplicate that without charters?"<br />because one of my objections to charters is simply ack! another layer of bureaucracy and the sheer amount of money to service it. It's going to take money away from existing schools. The funny thing about the Harlem Zone is they get TONS of private money (Geoffrey Canada admits this) so is it money or charter? <br /><br />I absolutely do not get putting inexperienced, undertrained TFA teachers in a class with high needs kids. An article in the Washington Post had a 21-year old teacher in a middle school special ed class (with zero special ed training). Not good enough, not by a long-shot.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75287156070216110612010-10-07T21:02:22.002-07:002010-10-07T21:02:22.002-07:00Seattle citizen, lots of points to discuss. First,...Seattle citizen, lots of points to discuss. First, I completely agree that the Board and Supt seem intent on sneaky maneuvers in many realms. Melissa and Charlie and others on this blog are very effective watchdogs and deserve massive thanks for their efforts on behalf of SPS families. <br /><br />Moving on, Seattle Citizen is suspicious of "reformist ideology." As opposed to... a "pro-education" ideology? A "status-quo" ideology? A "professional teacher committed to a 30-year career" ideology? I think this focus on ideology is stale and doesn't move the ball. <br /><br />Most failing schools have been failing for many years or even decades. They also typically have higher teacher turnover and less-experienced teachers than successful schools. And I'll repeat, in these schools, we need an "all of the above" approach to find partial solutions that might, one day, add up to progress. <br /><br />So instead of focusing on "pro" or "anti" (charter, TFA, union, phonics, whatever) arguments, my question is, if something works in one school, can it work elsewhere? Could it work in a failing Seattle public school? <br /><br />You offer an excellent idea: "Let's offer wrap-around services like the reformer's pet charter, Harlem Zone, but without the charter." If it's working, why condemn the charter aspect of it?<br /><br />Teacher quality and certification: There are excellent, average and bad teachers (and all shades of gray in between) and your citation of 4 million teachers proves the point. Is it possible to find 4 million "excellent" or "good" people in any profession, let alone one that requires reading and math education, an understanding of child behavior, social work, a desire to contribute to society -- plus, in failing schools, the creativity, energy, idealism and persistence to work with families and children who struggle for basic necessities?<br /><br />Seattle Citizen says "how dare" I say that "teachers aren't interested in working with poor students." I clearly haven't said that, Seattle Citizen. I'm saying there aren't ENOUGH excellent teachers for failing schools, and if TFA can supply some of them, let's open the door and if, as Eric M. says, 65% of TFAers leave after two years, that still means 35% commit to more.<br /><br />Lastly, several posters have asked why TFA shouldn't be inflicted on schools like Roosevelt or Lakeside. It's a legitimate question that, to some, implies a conspiracy against the poor. <br />The somewhat obvious answer is, "supply and demand." It's harder for failing schools to attract and keep their best teachers, while successful schools have have more applicants than available positions.Jessicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1854446857674675082010-10-07T19:33:50.876-07:002010-10-07T19:33:50.876-07:00Finland has already done school reform. It took th...Finland has already done school reform. It took them thirty years. They moved toward a system of more extensive teacher training, not less. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.annenberginstitute.org/vue/pdf/VUE24_Darling.pdf" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is an article on the subject by Linda Darling-Hammond.Mr. Edelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16100732082087823318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66320421883876789982010-10-07T16:30:31.069-07:002010-10-07T16:30:31.069-07:00(rebuttal of Jessica's points, cont.)
...&quo...(rebuttal of Jessica's points, cont.)<br /><br />..."3. For the most part, educational achievement - measured, yes, by test scores - tracks with parental demographics. Wealthier children tend to do better, poor children tend to do worse."<br />Right again. So the conditions outside of school are the determinants for educational success. Let's offer wrap-around services like the reformer's pet charter, Harlem Zone, but without the charter. Start by not cutting Family Support Workers, counselors, and career/college advisors, then add much more support out in the community. <br /><br />"Moving back into this debate, should teachers be expected to "solve" the achievement gap? Not on their own. But should tenured teachers be expected to improve the educational outcome for poor students? Absolutely. And should TFA teachers be expected to improve those outcomes? Absolutely."<br />Well....of COURSE teachers should improve outcomes for everybody! But the outcomes for some children will not be as good as those for others if the stuff outside the school isn't fixed. A teacher can't feed the kid (well, many do), or make the parents take away their iPod and crack open a book. But TFA are not teachers - no cert, no student teaching...and they come laden with the agenda of their leaders, which has changed in the last decade from actual volunteers in dorm rooms to being paid just like a real teacher and getting loan forgiveness etc. I think most people on this thread agree that a real teacher is better than a TFA, so...a real teacher would help a student, rich or poor, better than a TFA. Do you see any parents at, say, Roosevelt clamoring for TFA? No? Why not? Because they are happy with their teachers and want trained teachers, not two-year wannabes. <br /><br />"4. Except there's another question related to TFA: How often are the best tenured teachers willing to work in the toughest classrooms? While I can't answer with certainty, I've never read about a curious oversupply of excellent teachers in bad schools anywhere in the country."<br />This is the most egregious statement of them all. All sorts of good teachers work in very difficult conditions all around the city. Are you saying that teachers aren't interested in working with poor students?! How dare you! There are excellent teachers doing their very best everywhere, in wealthier schools, poorer schools...furthermore, there are plenty of new teachers who have shown their commitment and professionalism by actually BECOMING teachers to fill the demand.<br /><br />"TFA teachers are not pulled off the street and into the classroom. (Google tells me that more than 46,000 people applied for 4,500 spots.) I say, whether it's TFA or tenured teachers, welcome them into schools that need help, support them where possible and root for success. Rooting for failure is so Rush Limbaugh."<br />So, to use the TFA model, in order to staff the roughly four million teacher positions by getting lots of applications and culling for only the "best and the brightest," we would have to take in...40 million applications and turn away 36 million. You think there are 40 million people lining up to become teachers?<br /><br />I say, don't put pseudo-teachers in the poorest schools, particularly when no one is anxious to have those pseudo-teachers in the wealthier schools. ALL children deserve teachers who have committed to the profession, not just people who feel liberal guilt, want a star on their resume, have college debt to pay off, or want to teacher for two years and then take higher-paying jobs in the edu-reform business, like so many seem to do. Teachers who are committed to teaching plan on being in the classroom, not just for two years but for the long haul. They need to show this dedication, like doctors and lawyers, by doing the hard work FIRST by being trained and mentored before they operate alone.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34244453674049560362010-10-07T16:29:43.027-07:002010-10-07T16:29:43.027-07:00Jessica,
Not "rooting for failure," but ...Jessica,<br />Not "rooting for failure," but deeply suspicious of new initiatives that are gounded in reformist ideology, don't have merit, and are being thrown onto board agendas as done deals.<br /><br />You quote the McKinsey report: things that matter most are "getting the right people to become teachers...developing them into effective instructors (and) ensuring that school systems deliver the best possible instruction for every child." <br />TFA aren't becoming teachers, not 66 percent of them. That's not getting people into education. We agree that development (grad schools, student teaching, ongoing and appropriate pro development) is very helpful.<br /><br />Comparing us to all those countries doesn't make sense - there's no context. Finland is 100% union. Many of the countries track students into various programs. There are myraid differences. Factor all THOSE in and an argument that they are "eating us for lunch" somehow might have merit. As others have noted, this ISN'T a competition, and, furthermore, as Hung Zhao argues, many countries are abandoning their high-stakes testing and standardized curriculums because they see us eating THEIR lunch in creativity and innovation.<br /><br />Then you ask us to "stipulate" to four or five things...(um, stipulate means "to assume to be true" - I will stipulate no such thing): <br /><br />"1. Washington State doesn't provide adequate resources for public education and, if past is prologue, probably never will."<br />I disagree that we never will. I also believe much of the funding and resource is misdirected at silly things, such as central functions and 2500 head-hunter fees for each TFA. Lots of money is mis-spent, and no, for our needs, we DON'T supply enough and must supply more.<br /><br />"2. Smaller class sizes make a difference, especially in younger grades. That costs money. See (1) above. My son's K class has 27 students; I am not happy about this but I don't have $25k for private school. Reality, again."<br />I agree. We need more teachers.<br /><br />(cont.)seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.com