tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post3419717522836427340..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Garfield Incident UpdatesMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14494929338667488602013-10-04T13:43:58.394-07:002013-10-04T13:43:58.394-07:00The Lowell sounds great and should be a model for ...The Lowell sounds great and should be a model for all schools.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31397093747714577702013-10-04T12:35:06.055-07:002013-10-04T12:35:06.055-07:00To not be froshed is a humiliation.
No, it isn...<i>To not be froshed is a humiliation.</i><br /><br />No, it isn't. Nobody cares if a kid chooses to frosh or be froshed. There is no "popular kids clique" they'll be admitted or barred from based on that decision, i.e., "social suicide." This isn't Mean Girls or Heathers, and way too much has been made of threshold decision to frosh or not. It's no wonder the kids have tuned out, because we keep telling a story that doesn't exist.<br /><br />Yes, peer pressure is always at play, but we're stuck in a false narrative that's lead us astray, down memory lane, and into TV and the movies, but away from the facts.<br /><br />The kids have shared their side of the story, and we've said, "Yeah, right!" Their silence and disengagement ever since should not surprise us. <br /><br />There's a bucket full of teachable moments here, but most see one or two. That's a shame. But, I'm done beating a dead horse. Mine is a minority approach and that's fine. <br /><br />One thing my kids have learned is that once the sheet hits the fan, the true facts get obliterated in the sheet storm, so you've got to learn quickly if you want to know the truth.<br /><br />@Sad Mom: Lowell had one of the lowest reported incidents of bullying in the district and had The Lowell Way creed sung every morning by the kids that went like this:<br /><br />We care for and support<br />all of the Lowell School family,<br />We speak out against unfair or hurtful behavior towards others<br />and get adult help when needed.<br />We use extra effort to include<br />all students in activities <br />at our school.<br /><br />That's all gone now for APP, but we have it pinned to our bulletin board in the hall as a reminder.<br /><br />WSDWGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58349202883841097702013-10-04T12:34:00.023-07:002013-10-04T12:34:00.023-07:00WSDWG, above. And retiring from this thread. WSDWG, above. And retiring from this thread. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2853965853634242232013-10-04T12:32:55.405-07:002013-10-04T12:32:55.405-07:00How would you have addressed this situation had yo...How would you have addressed this situation had you come upon it? <br /><br />What did Mr. Howard do wrong or rather, what should he have done differently? <br /><br />What do you think he should do now and what modeling for all the OTHER students who did not engage in this behavior should he offer?<br /><br />I get this feeling that by pointing out to the kids what they did wrong that somehow that's wrong. <br /><br />I think Mr. Howard modeled some good behavior and, considering how he was treated, did great. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42524095966547306412013-10-04T12:32:10.809-07:002013-10-04T12:32:10.809-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37999985125119056102013-10-04T11:39:01.670-07:002013-10-04T11:39:01.670-07:00Respectfully Melissa, I disagree. I read through ...Respectfully Melissa, I disagree. I read through the comments on both threads. The context and tone from various commentators did bring these issues up - hence the back and forth and divergent POVs.<br /><br />There's a problem and it's acknowledged even among the teens themselves. The way my brain works is when I see a problem, I try to figure out a way to fix it. IMO, the fix for it to be effective has to come from the teenagers themselves. They have to change their behaviors and mindset. To get there, adults must engage with these students. We adults can set the tone, be the moderating force, demonstrate positive modeling behaviors so young people can look to, and lay out a framework for change. This is where I'm coming from.<br /><br />disappointed readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64821210568693111582013-10-04T08:21:51.975-07:002013-10-04T08:21:51.975-07:00Disapointed, NO ONE has disrespected Garfield. No ...Disapointed, NO ONE has disrespected Garfield. No one has said any student is bad. A small percentage of students made a bad choice and got caught. <br /><br />NO ONE has said this is not an issue at other schools. I know it happens at Roosevelt and other schools. I do know that both Roosevelt and Ballard have really cracked down but the answer to this really is with the students, not the adults. <br /><br />From a letter to the editor in the Times:<br />"Before my son had the opportunity to attend Garfield HS, I met with Principal Ted Howard to discuss my concerns about froshing (hazing). <br /><br />This occurs twice a year by the generally popular upperclass toward the freshman class. To not be froshed is a humiliation. There is no way froshing is going to end at Garfield as long as parents condone it.<br /><br />For some parents of freshman boys, we knew darn well they were going to be froshed. And eager to have our children fit and be happy (that was my excuse anyway) we allowed it. Today I told my student, no more.<br /><br />Parents, you with me?<br />Ellen Chestnut"<br /><br />Good for Ms. Chestnut.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58598092219319345232013-10-04T07:45:35.418-07:002013-10-04T07:45:35.418-07:00We are talking about bullying, the climate which a...<br />We are talking about bullying, the climate which allows it, and how can we eliminate it. Is this best done by keeping scores on who makes the best debate point in an argument? With a teenager? Which school is worse or better? Is this the best way to engage teens? As adults, we have tremendous power and come from a place of higher standing in society. We have more years, maturity, and experience. If adults want to open a dialogue with recalcitrant teens to try to change behavior, scoring points in an argument and publicly dissing the entire school (student body) on a blog, are not in my mind effective. It probably doesn't work well among adults. It merely fuel a battle which distracts rather than help solve a problem.<br /><br />Go to an anti- bullying class or website, you will see what we are doing right now mirrors some of the climate that bring about bullying. A declaration where one school has a bullying problem while the rest do not. It's fingerpointing. Why not have a discussion with positive input? Bring forth best practices and engagement that works. Civility doesn't mean politeness. It means the ability to make your point respectfully and effectively without belittling others. <br /><br /> I thank Ted Howard for his no nonsense action. Action which did not stop there. He remains engage with his students and takes the lead in going forward, in changing behaviors and attitudes to make things better. That's what responsible adults do.<br /><br />disappointed reader<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73325668488300749732013-10-04T00:47:56.717-07:002013-10-04T00:47:56.717-07:00"he is NOT on a team" -- sorry for the t..."he is NOT on a team" -- sorry for the typo.<br /><br />Seattle momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38646101595562282082013-10-04T00:46:53.389-07:002013-10-04T00:46:53.389-07:00My friend's child was hazed at Roosevelt last ...My friend's child was hazed at Roosevelt last year, and had bruises for weeks. She was livid. He took it as his due, eager to be in with the popular guys (all athletes). <br /><br />Thus far, our freshman at Ingraham has seen no evidence of hazing at that school, but he is on a team, so maybe he's out of the loop.<br /><br />Hazing is social control. It is similar to self-perpetuating racism, sexism, or homophobia -- in which those who have endured humiliation deal with the cognitive dissonance by minimizing it, quashing any natural empathy, and enjoying their turn at dishing it out. <br /><br />As a youth, I experienced its analog in a fundamentalist religion with women who, having submitted body and soul to men, insisted their daughters and other women do the same, or be cast out of the community. <br /><br />Apparently at GHS, there aren't enough high-status individuals opposed to hazing to stop the cycle. If I were staff, I would enroll every team in an empathy course. <br /><br />Seattle momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85629051201834618722013-10-03T23:21:36.954-07:002013-10-03T23:21:36.954-07:00Can I be clear, there are many problems to solve a...Can I be clear, there are many problems to solve at Ballard; it is far from a haven of perfect behavior and civility. Just not this particular problem -- which also doesn't seem to be happening at other local high schools. Although hazing is common enough in our culture, it seems to have been stamped out as a "tradition" in Seattle high schools.<br /><br />Or am I wrong? Anyone know of hazing -- not just alcohol-fueled general bad behavior -- at other area schools? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10805037408929121632013-10-03T23:07:15.504-07:002013-10-03T23:07:15.504-07:00WSDWG, I explained to Lynn what I was referencing,...WSDWG, I explained to Lynn what I was referencing, and NOT targeting APP kids as those involved. I don't know who they were, do you?<br /><br />As for my kid, what I said was that at her small school, the kids work hard NOT to have "ins" and "outs". I have personally heard one of them-not only or specifically MY kid, ask others to include a less popular student in activities. I've seen kids stand up to someone making negative comments about another student. Things like that. Are they perfect? Of course not, but I don't see a culture where kids would be ok with being hit, forced to drink, etc. just to be accepted. They seem accepting without any of that.<br /><br />THAT is what I said. My student keeps very active in pursuits that require me to drive her everywhere. For now, we know where that is, and for now, we can safely say that it hasn't including freshmen drinking until puking, paddling or diapers. That's not quite the same as "My kid would NEVER." But I'd like to think that's not a path this group won't.<br /><br />Excellent response, Melissa, to the student, by the way.<br /><br />Sad MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55362832128379986752013-10-03T22:14:12.975-07:002013-10-03T22:14:12.975-07:00Mr Howard showed up at the wrong time. And coming...Mr Howard showed up at the wrong time. And coming earlier would have warded off everyone else? Hmmm.<br /><br />Each student, frosher or froshee DID make his or her own choice (as I am told there was zero persuasion used to get anyone to show up) to do something that has been banned by Garfield. You were caught and,by your own admission, will learn and grow up. <br /><br />I note no one addressed my point of exactly how this builds "community" nor why, if it does, why so few kids participated.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7830754195027797492013-10-03T22:11:38.426-07:002013-10-03T22:11:38.426-07:00Melissa says only "a minority" showed up...Melissa says only "a minority" showed up and wonders why. <br /><br />Lori calls it a "widespread bullying issue." <br /><br />?<br /><br />And Sad Mom curiously asks:<br />What was it like at Lowell/Thurgood Marshall and Washington/Hamilton?Were there similar problems with kids and accountability?<br /><br />After having earlier written, essentially, "my kid would never..." <br /><br />And Mirmac1 writes: I will listen to the students' perspective, and I take it with a big grain of salt.<br /><br />1. Garfield had very firm rules in place. <br />2. The rules were well known to all students, parents, and faculty, published on the front page of the school's website and detailed in the Student Handbook.<br />3. The punishments for breaking those rules are severe, including criminal charges and reporting on college applications.<br />4. Everyone understood rules 1-3. <br />5. Despite 1-4, students broke the rules anyways. <br />6. At least 4 moms on this blog believe "why" they did so is irrelevant and should be taken with grain of salt<br />7. The kids who go to Garfield are not much different than kids who go to any other Seattle High School. 8. Precisely because most choose to believe they and their kids are special and different from the parents and kids at issue here, hazing is certain to continue at many schools in the district.<br />9. People will inexplicably misconstrue warnings and cautions that "its not that simple" as defending/rationalizing/supporting or tolerating hazing. <br />10. As much as many want it to be, hazing is not an APP problem. <br /><br />WSDWGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87959613018432202672013-10-03T21:08:01.640-07:002013-10-03T21:08:01.640-07:00Melissa-
There were not 65-70 freshmen there and n...Melissa-<br />There were not 65-70 freshmen there and not 3-=35 seniors. There were maybe around 25 of each grade, it was very evenly distributed. Kids weren't gathering just to frosh, although that did happen and it did get out of hand. It was a celebration for homecoming, and a lot of the people there were not involved in illegal activity of any kind, and people who were there who did not see hazing occur. <br />If the adults are trying to protect us and do whats best for us, why did Mr. Howard know about the gathering hours beforehand but not show up till almost 2 hours after it had started? That way he could catch and penalize as many people as possible. If he really had the students best interests at heart, he would have gone at the beginning and nipped it in the bud. <br />Yes, adults think that they have been there and they know all of what we should do. Sometimes, it seems that adults have forgotten what its like to be a teen, and won't see our perspective. We have to be able to make our own mistakes and learn from them. Yes, we need guidance and restraint to keep things from becoming dangerous like friday. But we also need to be able to make choices. Thats how life works and thats how we learn and grow up.<br /><br />-ghs kid who was thereAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24101585594384597822013-10-03T20:44:29.985-07:002013-10-03T20:44:29.985-07:00Response to Lisa's post , not Lori's.
Dis...Response to Lisa's post , not Lori's.<br /><br />Disappointed readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64710063674240014102013-10-03T20:41:31.821-07:002013-10-03T20:41:31.821-07:00I wouldn't be so sure about that Lori. I wish ...I wouldn't be so sure about that Lori. I wish I can be so confident. When parents start to play the not at my school or my child, they may very well be setting themselves up. <br /><br />If Ballard is indeed doing that much better in its anti-bullying effort, then it also has the heart and civility as a school to be kinder when other stumbles. <br /><br />disappointed readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13972549915310166652013-10-03T19:51:23.116-07:002013-10-03T19:51:23.116-07:00WSDWG, I wonder why other area high schools don...WSDWG, I wonder why other area high schools don't seem to have this problem? That angle is what has me convinced that school is the place to start solving it.<br /><br />I posted in the previous thread that hazing is either nonexistent at Ballard or minimal/benign enough to not be known to my very involved senior. I know kids at Ballard drink and smoke pot; some get up to worse behaviors, and my "good" kid is not exempt -- the difference is it is not a widespread bullying issue. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28535378959150642222013-10-03T19:32:37.347-07:002013-10-03T19:32:37.347-07:00WSDWG
The why. That IS a critical question. If ...WSDWG<br /><br />The why. That IS a critical question. If we start teaching minors that they can blame their actions on society, on the effed up world, on peer pressure (all valid reasons when I was that age), we condemn them to a life as victims.<br /><br />I grew up during the assassinations, the race riots, Kent State etc. Others grew up during the S&L crisis, "mistakes were made" phase of our country. Even now we live in a date rape, greedy, racist and sexist culture. There will be no end to reasons Why.<br /><br />The issue is personal responsibility and the parents' duty to teach their children.<br /><br />I will listen to the students' perspective, and I take it with a big grain of salt. I won't take it upon myself to do their parents job. But I sure as hell won't encourage illegal and/or dangerous behavior, and will report it. And I will never tolerate anything that resembles bullying. And that includes hazing in my mind.<br /><br />I appreciate your right to have your view, and thank you for posting on these threads. It IS important to learn: when do we let go and let them fly on their own. That will be a hard lesson for me.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40472806795657767162013-10-03T17:30:03.899-07:002013-10-03T17:30:03.899-07:00Sad Mom,
Sorry I misunderstood - and thanks for n...Sad Mom,<br /><br />Sorry I misunderstood - and thanks for not overreacting in the way I did.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21012510287105215132013-10-03T17:26:20.472-07:002013-10-03T17:26:20.472-07:00Lynn, you misunderstand. I was responding to WSDWG...Lynn, you misunderstand. I was responding to WSDWG's post about kids today being disaffected, not trusting adults, etc. The APP kids have been together in a much more contained way than area kids coming from a wider group of elementary schools and possibly middle schools, and for longer.<br /><br />I was thinking more along the lines of-here are these kids who have a similar schooling experience from an early age (mostly, I know some join APP later)-let's see what they think since they're mostly at Garfield now. That's all I wasn't even referring to the hazing incident. Though I would be interested in their input on that as well.<br /><br />Sad MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7904365131252781162013-10-03T16:42:03.221-07:002013-10-03T16:42:03.221-07:00Sad Mom,
Nice way to assume the blame falls on AP...Sad Mom,<br /><br />Nice way to assume the blame falls on APP students. There are three times as many non-APP students at Garfield who came from Washington and attended elementary schools in the central region. They are a cohort too. Were there problems with those kids and accountability?<br /><br />I don't know who was responsible - maybe every kid at the Arboretum was an APP student - maybe none of them were. Let's not place blame until we have facts to work with.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45889153960462453752013-10-03T14:44:57.247-07:002013-10-03T14:44:57.247-07:00"Why in the hell would I listen to, or take a..."Why in the hell would I listen to, or take advice from adults? On the whole, your track record sucks! Seriously."<br /><br />And such as been the case with teenagers since the beginning of time.<br /><br />"..ever-increasing odds stacked against them.."<br /><br />Why is this a harder time than any other time in our country to be a teen? It is in some ways and in others is not. <br /><br />I'm sorry if teens - at any school - don't understand (or choose not) why hazing isn't allowed. Sometimes adults make rules to PROTECT children and teens.<br /><br />I find it interesting that the kids say this is "community-building" because there were probably only 60-75 freshman there (if you figure there were 25-30 seniors). That certainly is NOT the entire class of freshman.<br /><br />So how come some showed up - a minority - and not the rest? What community is being talked about and maybe we should be talking about better, safer ways to build inclusion and community.<br /><br />As I say, I read every comment. I heard what the Garfield students said. I've raised two boys. I just finished up two hours at a high school listening to teens talk about their lives in order to help them write college essays. <br /><br />I listen but I also know what my role is as an adult. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43435109760462834922013-10-03T14:06:28.838-07:002013-10-03T14:06:28.838-07:00"but there's a reason it's been going..."but there's a reason it's been going on year after year, despite people knowing it's bad. We need to deal with the underlying, root causes. "<br /><br />Well, I agree with you there, WSDWG. Luckily since at least some of these kids are part of a cohort that's been together for most their schooling experience, and know each other well, that might be possible. What was it like at Lowell/Thurgood Marshall and Washington/Hamilton? Were there similar problems with kids and accountability? <br /><br />Sad MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75724964902953637722013-10-03T13:49:15.558-07:002013-10-03T13:49:15.558-07:00Ironically, EricB, I'm not so pessimistic abou...Ironically, EricB, I'm not so pessimistic about my own kids, or many others in my city. But I don't think we have to look far to see adults in positions of power doing really, really bad stuff, and even worse, getting away with it. See Wall Street, the U.S. Congress, Nike, Apple - the list goes on and on. <br /><br />My main point is that anyone who doesn't see and own the occasional hypocrite in the mirror is fooling themselves. That's not an excuse; it's a call to action. <br /><br />WSDWGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com