tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post348816980952318231..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Open Enrollment DataMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85405251086952535962009-06-09T13:02:17.143-07:002009-06-09T13:02:17.143-07:00West Seattle also mirrors the city as whole in tha...West Seattle also mirrors the city as whole in that the overcrowding in the north is, in part, attributable to students migrating up from the south. It mirrors the economic gap and the perceived gap in school quality in the rest of the city as well.<br /><br />There isn't much gap in programs, however, with Pathfinder as the only alternative school and the only K-8 in West Seattle. There are no ALOs anywhere in West Seattle - north or south - but the Spectrum program at West Seattle Elementary is not generally well regarded, so the program at Lafayette is perceived to be the only "real" Spectrum program west of the Duwamish.<br /><br />There is an international program at Concord, but we haven't seen the sort of jump in first choice requests for assignment there as we have seen at other international schools (52 in 2007, 33 in 2008, and 62 in 2009).Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48019328467176620752009-06-09T08:27:11.029-07:002009-06-09T08:27:11.029-07:00I think I would be inclined to say that yes, only ...<i>I think I would be inclined to say that yes, only those in the military or willing to serve, ought to be able to formulate defence policy, especially as they are the ones who have to carry it out.</i><br /><br />I served 8 years in the Navy. From my perspective, this would be an absolute disaster. The tradition of civilian control of the military is very, very strong in the United States, and in my opinion, it is the strength of that tradition which makes the idea of a military coup basically unthinkable here, thus radically reducing the chances that we will have to deal with a military dictatorship at some point in the future.<br /><br />In order for civilian control of the military to be meaningful, the entire civilian population has to have the right to participate in decision making process regarding defence policy.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07677294298900083208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9042303598626319792009-06-08T22:46:56.732-07:002009-06-08T22:46:56.732-07:00Roy - you posed an interesting question about the ...Roy - you posed an interesting question about the military and defence policy...<br /><br />Been thinking about it all afternoon... and, even though this is going to open me up to accusations of being a total kook, speaking from my experience as a 20-year military wife with a son in another country's military, I think I would be inclined to say that yes, only those in the military or willing to serve, ought to be able to formulate defence policy, especially as they are the ones who have to carry it out...<br /><br />While I was happy with whatever sex my children would turn out to be, I was ambivalent about having boys (I have two) who would one day be used as cannon-fodder by whatever government of the day thought that force was needed to get what it wanted in this world...<br /><br />And now I do have an (IT geek) son in the military, who, luckily because of government policy, is likely to serve overseas only in a peacekeeping or humanitarian assistance role (still dangerous enough to cause me anxiety)...<br /><br />Talking to veterans and serving personnel in my 20 year association with military from all three services and many countries, I think you would find that most mature people in the military would work hard (and want their governments to work harder) to find peace/resolve conflict through means other than war - they and their families know the true cost of war... its my impression few of them think war is glorious or a legitimate means to an end.... that view is held mostly by the young short on life experience and those who like to watch and comment on life from the safety of the couch in front of the television....Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75473878052708848922009-06-08T19:23:03.100-07:002009-06-08T19:23:03.100-07:00Charlie Said,
...six months ago the District staf...Charlie Said,<br /><br /><i>...six months ago the District staff were presenting data that indicated that West Seattle-North had excess capacity. Now there are some clues (from the open enrollment data) that it does not.</i><br /><br /><b>The decision to close Cooper Elementary left West Seattle North with exactly the capacity needed for the children currently enrolled in SPS and living in the reference area. There was no room for growth or any "Choice enrollment".</b><br /><br />1. <b>The district knew they were in the middle of a 2-3 year "Bubble" in Kindergarten enrollment.</b> <br /><br />2. <b>West Seattle has a tremendous amount of housing under construction.</b> Housing density around here is increasing rapidly, most of it designed for single family occupancy.<br /><br /><b>Despite these 2 facts, the district insisted the enrollment was in a downward trend.</b><br /><br />The capacity problem is compounded by the fact that West Seattle mirrors the city in general. There are several high performing schools in the North which have waiting lists for students living in the South who are trying to get into better schools.<br /><br />It is obvious to me that the closure of Cooper Elementary is setting West Seattle North up for the same overcrowding conditions we have in the North end now.steve in west seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17615119680401647551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9249283031419410642009-06-08T18:41:20.411-07:002009-06-08T18:41:20.411-07:00Dorothy - the citizens of a country ARE the policy...Dorothy - the citizens of a country ARE the policy of that country...<br /><br />each and every adult person here in the US is responsible for the making and implementing of US domestic (internal) and foreign (external)policy - its what we allow to happen, be decided and enacted on our behalf...<br /><br />we either support it directly with our words or actions<br /><br />or we enable it with our silence, passivity and whinging but not taking action...<br /><br />and there's no room for sitting back and leaving it to 'them'; there's no point in distancing oneself/abdicating from one's responsibility by saying: 'well, I voted for him/her and now I need to trust him/her to do the right thing'... things change all the time, life is not static, influences are not static...<br /><br />How many of you voted for the current school Board and now are dismayed by their abysmal performance? So, you just sit back and take it and wait however many years it takes for the next election to come around and then vote them out? And in the meantime, how much damage will have been done in your name and how will that ever be undone?<br /><br />And who pays the price for the mistakes and ineptitude? Our children.... I'm sorry, but that's not OK with me....Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41142385699083096032009-06-08T14:49:43.346-07:002009-06-08T14:49:43.346-07:00That would all be very well if we each had one voi...That would all be very well if we each had one voice with equal influence... the system breaks down when money and size changes who gets to have the most influence...<br /><br />In whose interests is the war in Iraq? Private business, mostly... Where does the money go for the war in Iraq/Afghanistan? Private money... Who lobbies for involvement in wars - mostly conservative in big business, on the pretext that these are matters of national security and economic wellbeing...<br /><br />And I know this because I was a military wife for 20 years and have a son in another country's military...Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4842827388744664212009-06-08T14:21:17.651-07:002009-06-08T14:21:17.651-07:00Let me clarify that "obligation" comment...Let me clarify that "obligation" comment. There is no real obligation, I just feel that citizens have a moral obligation to pay attention, think about the candidates and to vote. That's the extent of the obligation there and is the fundamental way that citizens influence policy.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16564131444556861092009-06-08T14:17:28.708-07:002009-06-08T14:17:28.708-07:00Roy, I don't see the difference. What I don...Roy, I don't see the difference. What I don't understand is the "make policy" bit for citizens. Citizens on their own cannot make policy for anything, schools or Iraq. All citizens can and should influence policy by getting informed, by voting, and by contacting their representatives and letting them know their opinion. A child-free citizen has just as much right to exercise their influence as a parent and a citizen without any direct link to the military has just as much right (an obligation even) to weigh the possible policies and actions and assert their opinions to their representatives. <br /><br />How many school board members don't have kids in public school? How many congresscritters don't have family in the military? <br /><br />My son is leaving SPS in just under two weeks. He can hardly wait. But does that mean I should stop contacting the school board with my opinions, ie attempting to influence policy, about math, about LA, about anything?Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60027847902729746332009-06-08T14:08:38.360-07:002009-06-08T14:08:38.360-07:00Steve in West Seattle, six months ago the District...Steve in West Seattle, six months ago the District staff were presenting data that indicated that West Seattle-North had excess capacity. Now there are some clues (from the open enrollment data) that it does not.<br /><br />If there is, in fact, sufficient capacity in West Seattle-North, then the District does not need to re-open Fairmount Park and they can leave it closed.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75059678844281785412009-06-08T13:05:19.928-07:002009-06-08T13:05:19.928-07:00I think childless citizens have a right to a persp...<i>I think childless citizens have a right to a perspective on education and to voice that opinion, but not the right to make and influence policy and decisions when they themselves wont be impacted by having to live those policies...</i><br /><br />Let me substitute a few words:<br /><br /><i>I think that citizens who are not in the military and who do not have family members in the military have a right to a perspective on the Iraq war and to voice that opinion, but not the right to make and influence policy and decisions when they themselves wont be impacted by having to live those policies...</i><br /><br />Do you still stand by your stance regarding who gets to make and influence policy on education?Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07677294298900083208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19965759983072329542009-06-08T11:48:25.205-07:002009-06-08T11:48:25.205-07:00I think childless citizens have a right to a persp...I think childless citizens have a right to a perspective on education and to voice that opinion, but not the right to make and influence policy and decisions when they themselves wont be impacted by having to live those policies...<br /><br />I also dont believe citizens not in the public education system should have the capacity to influence the direction that education system takes because then we have children being used as pawns to manufacture a particular social outcome... for example, the current move towards corporatising schools and limiting the curriculum to subjects that are of value to employers and the capitalist system, rather than offering subjects that allow children to grow into their fullest human potential - academic and otherwise - in whatever form that takes so that they are happy contributing citizens in their uniqueness, rather in their 'clonedness'...<br /><br />And for me its impossible to separate out the economics, politics from the educational issues...<br /><br />I dont know how many people have realised that capitalism is the ultimate pyramid scheme ... based solely on exploitation ... and that when we exhaust the pool of people to contribute to the bottom of the pyramid, western capitalism goes looking beyond its borders to sell the fantasy to other nations and to suck them into the bottom of the pyramid - globalisation...<br /><br />Now, most people would proudly declare:<br />"pyramid schemes are for fools - you'd never catch me signing up for one of them...."<br /><br />but here we are, all of us entrenched in the biggest con game ever invented and we're passing that on to our kids through our school system and allowing business interests to influence education policies and implementation....Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52563731723578958822009-06-08T10:49:13.584-07:002009-06-08T10:49:13.584-07:00Childless voters also are impacted in numerous way...Childless voters also are impacted in numerous ways by the quality, or lack thereof, of the education that their fellow citizens are receiving, and for that reason alone deserve a voice, not to mention the financial support that they are obligated to provide. If childless citizens are expected to provide money but not given a voice, then you have taxation without representation. Of course, we can get around that by only requiring parents to pay taxes that go to support schools, but then we just have underfunded private schools.<br /><br />The idea that childless citizens shouldn't get a voice in how public schools operate is absolutely anathema to the whole idea of public schools.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07677294298900083208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45416726068561128662009-06-08T10:42:09.943-07:002009-06-08T10:42:09.943-07:00No, the Board has a fiduciary duty to the taxpayer...No, the Board has a fiduciary duty to the taxpayers of Seattle as well. We, as parents, have to be deeply grateful to our friends and neighbors who don't have children in SPS who continue to vote for the levies and bonds. And, the Board needs to oversee where those monies go so that the general public doesn't feel the money is being used poorly so they will keep voting for public schools.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26105247001617473762009-06-07T23:46:25.425-07:002009-06-07T23:46:25.425-07:00momster -
you said the Board is answerable to the...momster - <br />you said the Board is answerable to the (childless) taxpayers who voted them in...<br /><br />Taxpayers might have voted them in, but if they are childless (or have children who are not in the SPS system) and so wont be impacted by Board and District decisions, I dont think they should have any influence with the Board/District on schools' management, direction, policy etc.... they dont have the knowledge/experience and dont have to live with the consequences...<br /><br />I think the Board's sole responsibility is to the children and the parents/guardians of those children being educated in SPS....Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4153098851653526322009-06-07T22:51:23.761-07:002009-06-07T22:51:23.761-07:00Charlie,
I find it odd that you are championing r...Charlie,<br /><br />I find it odd that you are championing re-opening Fairmont Park Elementary. Only a few months ago you were advocating closing Cooper Elementary because of the excess capacity in West Seattle North. What has changed?steve in west seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17615119680401647551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73545866270889573962009-06-07T21:32:59.235-07:002009-06-07T21:32:59.235-07:00Let's consider the idea that the Board listens...Let's consider the idea that the Board listens to people in large groups.<br /><br />Consider the case of the co-location of Denny onto the campus at Chief Sealth High School.<br /><br />Every single stakeholder group - the students, the teachers, the staff, the families, and the community opposed that co-location. They opposed it loudly and in large numbers, yet the Board still moved forward on it.<br /><br />We don't need theory about what will work when we have a record that we can review.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18533500812493314242009-06-07T16:38:09.337-07:002009-06-07T16:38:09.337-07:00Steve,
Thanks for the detailed reply to my comment...Steve,<br />Thanks for the detailed reply to my comment. Your response was informned and cogent. I didn't mean to slam you, I was merely responding to some of the phrasing as indicative of the problems homeless people face in schools (and other aspects of their lives.)<br /><br />You've heard, I'm sure, of First Place, that wonderful support school for homeless children in Seattle...<br /><br />Thanks again for the deep and thoughtful response.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73998823564269441262009-06-06T19:34:44.060-07:002009-06-06T19:34:44.060-07:00jason said, "The only information the current...jason said, "The only information the current board seems to give any weight to is that brought to them by the district" but i have to say that i disagree.<br /><br />i know a few board members, and i feel they listen when i say something - but i've worked for several years to build up not only my relationships with them, but my body of knowledge about state funding, finance, enrollment, etc etc - the things that help them know i have context when i say something.<br /><br />i don't have the same standing with the ones who don't know me - and i don't believe i should - they don't know me, they get hundreds of emails - why should they suddenly sit down with me, listen to me, and/or do what i ask?<br /><br />yes, they're supposed to represent the people who elected them (as well as the people who didn't), but that's not just me, that's me and the hundreds and thousands of other taxpayers (not just parents) in this city.<br /><br />as an alternative to building relationships (which means showing up at board meetings and work sessions, talking to them reasonably and knowledgeably, etc) i think the board and its individual members listen when they hear something in numbers and/or in force. if you really want something done or heard, you have to rally some critical mass of people who think the same thing - and i don't think that's unfair either.momsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10589728845018669169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58917008536530913902009-06-06T16:38:41.532-07:002009-06-06T16:38:41.532-07:00On 6/5/09 at 2:52 PM hschinske said...
Greenwood ...On 6/5/09 at 2:52 PM hschinske said...<br /><br /><i>Greenwood had 40 first choices, 85 enrolled -- and yet there are three on the wait list? How can that be?</i><br /><br />...<br /> <br />to which on 6/5/09 at 2:59 PM Roy Smith replied...<br /><br /><i><br />Because 45 second or third choices beat 3 first choices in the tiebreakers? It's counterintuitive, but the way the enrollment system works, that can happen.<br /></i><br /><br />...<br /><br />Most people do find this counter-intuitive. However, it really is state-of-the-art in school/student matching procedures.<br /><br />In order to make sense of it, the thing to remember is that school assignment is the interaction of *two* sets of priorities. One set of priorities are the "institutional" priorities -- the rules published by the district about who trumps whom during assignments. The other is the set of "personal" priorities -- the order in which each family prefers schools for their child(ren).<br /><br />If you didn't make it into a school you liked better than your final assignment, then everyone who did make it into that school has to have had higher *institutional* priority than you. Your *personal* priorities are reflected because you are assigned to the school highest among your personal priorities into which you fit without violating the institutional priorities.<br /><br />As many have said, some of those folks who got a Greenwood assignment put other schools as their first choice. They had higher institutional priority for Greenwood than those on the waiting list.<br /><br />From time to time, someone suggests that we should change the system so that personal priority should also be an institutional priority.<br /><br />At first glance, this is institutionally appealing as it assures that the school community is made up of the people who most want to be there.<br /><br />The experts consider this a bad idea because:<br /><br />(a) it encourages people to lie about their personal priorities, thus giving the district less data about relative popularity, <br /><br />(b) it increases inequity by making choosing a long-shot school safer for those whose probable default assignment is a high quality school, and<br /><br />(c) it increases inequity by giving parents who are capable and willing of honing their strategy for case (b) an advantage over those who act naively.Elizabeth Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04731168985909727486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35014499722498930632009-06-06T15:38:07.226-07:002009-06-06T15:38:07.226-07:00SeattleCitizen re: my BF Day post: Sorry if "...SeattleCitizen re: my BF Day post: Sorry if "admitted" made it sound like the principal was somehow ashamed of the fact that kids from homeless families were sent to BF Day. "Told us" would have been better. In fact, she was quite proud of the students and families at her school, no matter what their personal situation. She said that having such a diversity of people made for a really caring community. She was just making the point that at one time, homeless kids were sent to only a small number of designated schools, and so there was a concentration at BF Day. She said that some prospective parents were concerned about this reputation at the time, and probably chose not to go there. Whether this was outright prejudice, ignorance/fear about homeless people, somewhat low WASL scores, parents that aren't that involved in the school because of their socioeconomic situation or the distance they lived from the school, or they just didn't like the location or the fact that the building is made of brick? Maybe all those things to some degree. I have no idea. I work with homeless people, however, and I know that there is a stigma about being homeless in our society. Not for everyone, but for a lot of people, and usually out of unfamiliarity and fear. <br /><br />I don't know the specifics of the "old" policy, but the District has a page about enrollment, etc. for kids who are homeless or become homeless during the school year. See http://www.seattleschools.org/area/homeless/index.dxml. Worth reading.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05105365816526108707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68674189791935476412009-06-06T15:05:57.569-07:002009-06-06T15:05:57.569-07:00amrines,
Look at McClure Map 08-09
South East +...<b>amrines,</b><br /><br />Look at <a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/newassign/maps/08-09/attend/mcclure0809.pdf" rel="nofollow"> McClure Map 08-09</a><br /><br />South East + South West = 179 (out of 552) kids.<br /><br />But why? It sounds like the capacity is really needed up by Eckstein. And as you said, McClure is already underenrolled.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75486551224369701952009-06-06T13:04:54.830-07:002009-06-06T13:04:54.830-07:00Actually, as I thought about it, didn't the NE...Actually, as I thought about it, didn't the NECC get a meeting like this? Didn't the NECC present their recommendations at that meeting? And weren't they pretty much ignored?<br /><br />As for an ombudsman with the District, that's the Board's job - to represent the public and the public's interests within the District.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47095565990950303902009-06-06T10:59:11.320-07:002009-06-06T10:59:11.320-07:00Once again, McClure. If the new assignment plan do...Once again, McClure. If the new assignment plan does not include bussing south-end kids to Queen Anne, how many seats does that open up in this already under-enrolled northish-located middle school?amrineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688101692219129938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69636020094819527092009-06-06T10:53:29.904-07:002009-06-06T10:53:29.904-07:00I think a cornerstone of the ability to present ef...I think a cornerstone of the ability to present effective counter proposals is effective data. Right now the district has a monopoly on data. District staff are the only folks with direct access to source data. <br /><br />As parents, we often attempt to base counter-arguments on publicly available data that we are able to access. Staff then trumps this data by saying that parent did not understand the data and didn't see X.<br /><br />As parents this is frustrating but the board is also dependent on this. The board has to play the game of mother may I and they have to request data from staff. Naturally, staff cherry pick the data they want to present. The board typically asks questions about the data and clarifications are rarely enlightening. <br /><br />I was outraged that staff presented data that there was plenty of middle school capacity in the north end so the board should be able to vote to close Meany. Now, just a few minutes later, they are presenting data that there is not enough middle school capacity in the north end and we have to re-purpose Jane Addams K8 into a middle school. <br /><br />The board does not have the ability to hire and fire these analysts. My recommendation would be that at a minimum the board members were each given a independent analyst that could directly assess data and crunch the numbers. Then parents could actually get answers from the elected board as the board could actually get data.kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78043800873467437452009-06-06T10:45:40.326-07:002009-06-06T10:45:40.326-07:00What an interesting idea. A district ombudsman for...What an interesting idea. A district ombudsman for parents. This does have a little precedence...the Seattle Police Dept formed a multi-person task force after charges of racial inequality and untoward force. I wouldn't want to see a task force for the district...we already have the board. But one, hired person, funded by school PTAs could be great. <br /><br />Of course, the Super would have to agree to it, and I have my doubts there for sure. Unless the board set policy to mandate it. Or the mayor put a lot of political pressure on the district to do it. (He has no actual power in the matter.) If the media caught on, it could work.Central Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05411595538958030193noreply@blogger.com