tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post3542607041170992264..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Important Viewing to Understanding about Being Black in AmericaMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31685282340503046542017-07-07T21:52:26.559-07:002017-07-07T21:52:26.559-07:00dogfish, I lived in Europe for years and live outs...dogfish, I lived in Europe for years and live outside North America now.<br /><br />My whole point is that sport in Europe is a non-issue for schools...LOL!! Mr. <br />living-in-a-bubble Bull Dog who is more Trump than not. He would be so stunned to learn what "gifted" really is in the world at large LOL!!!<br /><br />Do you get it now, one college-semester European-wannabe, @dogfish??<br /><br />Maybe you need another semester in Europe. <br /><br />@MA Take a vacation outside of your pretend liberal bubble called Seattle and you will be shocked to grow a pair. I will make such sense after just a week in Europe. I will sound like Rene Decartes on steroids when you leave your pretend world.<br /><br />Regards, Betsy<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90470573037048383212017-07-07T20:47:38.521-07:002017-07-07T20:47:38.521-07:00sports in europa are club not at school
dogfishsports in europa are club not at school<br /><br />dogfishAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68773221285226113152017-07-07T20:11:44.590-07:002017-07-07T20:11:44.590-07:00Heavens to Betsy! I have no idea what you're t...Heavens to Betsy! I have no idea what you're talking about. Just give me a cool drink of water 'fore I diiieMAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57365984292894044612017-07-07T17:49:55.322-07:002017-07-07T17:49:55.322-07:00@disAPP
Weren't you one of the first to admit...@disAPP<br /><br />Weren't you one of the first to admit that HCC isn't a "gifted" program?<br /><br />Why the change of heart when the consequences begin to set in? <br /><br /><br />@Bull Dog<br /><br />Private Schools rule! And so do competitive team sports! Europe has it so backwards...those socialists. Good thing, Brexit. Go, Poland!<br /><br />Go, Donny--ignore Hamburg! Rah, Rah! Sports! Ignore historical injustices except when, you know...it makes you feel good at high school reunions (they were kinda racist in my hometowm) and intellectual stimuli. Reminds you of college, no? <br /><br />Cognitive dissonance is such a drag. Rationalize... rationalize. U live in Seattle. Breathe deeply. U are nothing like your relatives. Those who call you on the carpet about HCC are justjealous.<br /><br />Ahhhhh! Feels so much better.<br /><br />Regards, Betsy<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22870666588596183782017-07-07T13:49:56.031-07:002017-07-07T13:49:56.031-07:00@ Betsy D, why does the idea of educating public s...@ Betsy D, why does the idea of educating public school students at the level appropriate to their achievement immediately make you think of private schools and vouchers? Are you suggesting that only private schools should be expected to actually teach new material to gifted students? I hope not.<br /><br />DisAPPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50528375985863765152017-07-07T13:30:32.126-07:002017-07-07T13:30:32.126-07:00Right? Slow students deserve to be with fast stude...Right? Slow students deserve to be with fast students. And they all deserve to be with the very fastest students. That's why Seattle's schools will no longer track students into freshman, Junior Varsity, Varsity teams, and "select" teams anymore. Those aren't equitable. Schools say that due to "large schools and limited opportunities... we are not able to place every child on a team who wishes to participate..." What's up with that???<br /><br />The best way for slow students to get in shape and improve dexterity and technique is to train with the very best athletes. If the most talented, some might say gifted, athletes have already mastered a drill, possibly (gasp) spent time outside of school hours practicing, they can be useful helping to tutor athletes who are struggling with the basics of the sport and basic fitness.<br /><br />Detracking is the way to go to help slow athletes improve. Parents don't mind slow players on their children's teams because they get that it's not about winning. It's about the love of the game. It's about learning to be part of a team.Bull Dognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79730177637790325912017-07-07T08:49:55.364-07:002017-07-07T08:49:55.364-07:00@Dodger
Private Schools rock! Let's just use ...@Dodger<br /><br />Private Schools rock! Let's just use vouchers and get rid of the pretence of having public schools. No parent wants slow students in the classroom to keep their kid down. Why stop at HCC?<br /><br />Betsy D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74986418282088114012017-07-07T06:44:09.602-07:002017-07-07T06:44:09.602-07:00Agreed.
It's not about race, it's about n...Agreed.<br /><br />It's not about race, it's about not slowing these kids down.<br /><br />Blended classrooms, with kids who are working below grade level, are not conducive to realizing the potential of HC qualified students.<br /><br />For various reasons:<br /><br />Slower pace and exposure to attitudes and behaviors that do not value academic proficiency.<br /><br />I don't think many would fail to see the advantages of a group of the best students working together.<br /><br />As SPS has arranged the program, they are the best students.<br /><br />Merely being bright, even a "genius", even 3 SD's above average in intelligence, won't get a kid in the HCC unless they can actually perform at a high level.<br /><br />It's like Lakeside. They want successful students, not just gifted ones.<br /><br />So like Lakeside, the HCC is not a gifted program. It's a high achievers' program, and as such, very successful.<br /><br />DodgerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9323097103858910712017-07-06T21:50:58.064-07:002017-07-06T21:50:58.064-07:00people like hcc cause there are no kids below grad...people like hcc cause there are no kids below grade level. <br /><br />simple factAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-29527727110586443112017-07-06T17:48:22.182-07:002017-07-06T17:48:22.182-07:00@ Momma K, what exactly did you like about that? T...@ Momma K, what exactly did you like about that? The anti-white racism and stereotyping? <br /><br />And what do online mommy groups in Atlanta have to do with SPS? <br /><br />not helpingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75914892888230664262017-07-06T15:40:23.548-07:002017-07-06T15:40:23.548-07:00I liked this piece by Mamademics:
Online mommy gr...I liked this piece by Mamademics:<br /><br /><a href="http://mamademics.com/im-quitting-online-mommy-groups/" rel="nofollow">Online mommy groups, specifically, local ones are not safe spaces for moms of color. They are where the gatekeepers of white supremacy dwell. They are full of white fragility and tears. I'm tired of wiping your tears while you stand in my blood. So, I'm quitting online mommy groups.</a><br /><br />If only we could be working on this, Seattle!Momma Knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52707950985057100742017-07-06T12:14:39.658-07:002017-07-06T12:14:39.658-07:00@jd
FYI, the following Seattle Public Schools are...@jd<br /><br />FYI, the following Seattle Public Schools are all currently whiter than Cascadia:<br />Adams Elementary School<br />The Center School<br />Eckstein Middle School<br />Queen Anne Elementary<br />Lawton Elementary School<br />North Beach Elementary School<br />Ballard High School<br />Frantz Coe Elementary School<br />Thornton Creek Elementary School<br />Green Lake Elementary School<br />Catharine Blaine K-8 School<br />Hamilton International Middle School<br />West Woodland Elementary School<br />Genesee Hill Elementary<br />Salmon Bay K-8 School<br />Bryant Elementary School<br />Whittier Elementary School<br />Loyal Heights Elementary School<br /><br />HC kids don't leave their local schools to get into an exclusive club (?) What would that even mean? HCC is just a public school like so many others. HCC programs (Fairmount Park, Thurgood Marshall, Cascadia, Decatur) are <a href="https://www.seattleschools.org/directory/option" rel="nofollow">option schools</a>. The parents/guardians of 7,802 kids decided to send their students to option schools last year instead of supporting their neighborhood school. Parents choose option schools (including HCC) because they think it will be a better fit for their student. It's about education. <br /><br />There are lots of ways to support your local school and your local school community. Art fairs and carnivals and Moveathons and auctions and book drives and supporting sports and drama and music programs. There are lots of ways for kids to interact with all different kinds of communities. They can support these communities outside of school as well. They can do before or after care at the local Boys & Girls Club or Kids Co or the Y at any school and support and be part of the community that way. There's soccer teams and little league and dance groups and theater and music and neighborhood barbecues and rights marches and clothes drives and volunteering and community events and activism. The support of schools doesn't just happen by sending your kid there. Hello, it's also property taxes!!! And so so so much more. Supporting schools and communities is for life, not just until kids graduate. And kids are rooted in their communities separate from school--their religious communities and ethnic communities and sports-fan-communities and linguistic communities. Going to an option school does NOT change that.<br /> <br />What the HCC parents <b>are</b> supporting is public schools. <br /><br />The parents of 17,951 Seattle students (for the 2016-17 school year) sent their children to private school. They could have kept those 17,951 kids at their local school, supporting public education and building strong neighborhood communities. But they didn't. In some neighborhoods more than 50% of families of school age children have opted out of public schools. <br /><br />Sending your kid to a public option school (like Cascadia) is no worse then sending them to a STEM or other option school or sending them to private school. Option schools (including HCC) support public schools. <br /><br />Benjamin Bannekernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21749964882965005492017-07-06T11:50:15.209-07:002017-07-06T11:50:15.209-07:00@ Post Copernicus, we actually agree on something!...@ Post Copernicus, we actually agree on something! You're correct that HCC is a high achievement program, not a gifted program. So...doesn't it make sense, then, that eligibility is based on past performance, AKA readiness? The WAC definition of highly capable refers to high performance...<br /><br />Or are you saying it's a high achievement program but is legally supposed to be a gifted program? In which case, as I've been saying, both the eligibility AND THE INSTRUCTION need to change? What makes you say it's supposed to be a gifted program? The WAC does also mention for high performance, but whether or not that's the same as giftedness is unclear...<br /><br />It feels sometimes like you're trying to have it both ways--that you're willing to acknowledge HCC is an achievement program rather than gifted ed, but that eligibility should be based on giftedness not achievement.<br /><br />DisAPPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11658712949049987372017-07-06T11:39:47.978-07:002017-07-06T11:39:47.978-07:00@Post Copernicus,
I agree 100% with something you...@Post Copernicus,<br /><br />I agree 100% with something you said!!! This: <br /><b>"The actual victims are the students who are not receiving their legally mandated HC services: historically underrepresented Black and Brown children, low SES, 2E and ELL."</b><br /><br />I welcome the court case that fixes things for those kids. Bring it on. Can't happen fast enough. <br /><br />But if fairly and equitably educating African American children is the issue we're discussing, that only covers about 5% of them. I continue to hear almost about nothing about the other 95% and I find it disturbing. Very disturbing.<br /><br /><br /> Benjamin Bannekernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57090194362619388102017-07-06T11:06:51.390-07:002017-07-06T11:06:51.390-07:00@jd, I assume that means you do NOT respect parent...@jd, I assume that means you do NOT respect parents who do choose to move their kids, even though you know nothing about the child's needs; their neighborhood school's ability to meet them (or willingness to even try); the likelihood of the student to have any intellectual peers; the parents' ability to supplement; etc.? Nice.<br /><br />Do you have any clue why some join HCC and others don't? Do you have any clue why or how a neighborhood school "works" for some HC students but not others? I doubt it. <br /><br />As for this "exclusive club", any targeted program with eligibility criteria is, by dessign, "exclusive" in that it serves a subgroup that is identified to need special services. I'm curious--do you also go around railing against special ed as an "exclusive club"?<br /><br />Meet Needs!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4953113836815665872017-07-06T10:05:29.253-07:002017-07-06T10:05:29.253-07:00BB,
It seems you have been very misinformed. HCC ...BB,<br /><br />It seems you have been very misinformed. HCC is NOT a gifted program by any measure. Reread the De Bonte article and basic primers on the NAGC website for further information on gifted children, identification and services.<br /><br />HCC is a high achievement program with a twist of CogAT scores that aren't normed properly and therefore significantly favor the (no surprise!) overrepresented clusters.<br /><br />Your attempt to divert from this social justice issue by conjuring up HCC children as a straw man is painfully obvious. The actual victims are the students who are not receiving their legally mandated HC services: historically underrepresented Black and Brown children, low SES, 2E and ELL. <br /><br />The "diverse" schools/neighborhood you had to sacrifice for HCC come a with large dollop of "relatively speaking", as your moniker continues to reveal. Highly segregated schools are also an embarrassing blemish on this "liberal" city. <br /><br />Protecting one's own blatant interests at all costs has a long history. That is why courts have such a significant role to play.<br /><br />Post Copernicus<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75612974477179564772017-07-05T17:01:46.954-07:002017-07-05T17:01:46.954-07:00Parents could keep their kids in and therefore sup...Parents could keep their kids in and therefore support their neighborhood school.<br />You know, work to improve hoe it serves HC qualified. But most parents are anxious to get into the cohort...<br /><br />It's an exclusive club and one's child is surrounded only by others who have shown the ability to pass the tests.<br /><br />A thousand HC kids stay at their local school. I have to respect those parents for avoiding the cohort and its supporters, very present on this blog<br /><br />jdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47657977779072091182017-07-05T12:47:01.245-07:002017-07-05T12:47:01.245-07:00@Post Copernicus,
You claim that: "you are p...@Post Copernicus,<br /><br />You claim that: "you are perpetuating the problem in HC identification if you think that testing more under-represented students using the current norming and testing protocols will lead to more acceptance of under-represented students." And also that this is not an issue for teachers or principals. So, what I hear you saying is that the tests the district is using and/or the way the district is evaluating the tests is the reason HCC isn't more diverse than it is. And I think that is the consensus of folks who know about gifted education and demographics and such. <br /><br />But if principals and teachers aren't to blame for that, I don't understand how parents who live in one quadrant of the city can be. If the district is not identifying students properly for a program it offers, Seattle residents should be writing letters to the school board. We should be explaining the problem. We should be asking for the change that will get the students access to the services they need to thrive. Gifted kids should be getting gifted ed services regardless of the color of their skin or their family's finances or what part of town they live in or what language they speak at home. <br /><br />Attacking parents of school kids is not going to effect change in the way the district identifies kids for advanced learning programs. Parents don't have a say. Other than writing to the board, voting for school board members, etc. I bet you could get a bunch of HCC parents on board with writing and asking for more inclusive identification processes that would result in more diverse HC cohorts. That's actually one of the saddest things for many families about switching from a neighborhood school to HCC, giving up the racial and socio-economic diversity. That and the hellish commute. And the naughty gifted kids with all their biting and hair pulling and kicking.Benjamin Bannekernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37320808347810187222017-07-04T13:58:45.611-07:002017-07-04T13:58:45.611-07:00FWIW, we're going in circles.
Whether valid ...FWIW, we're going in circles. <br /><br />Whether valid or not, the state allows use of the CogAT for this purpose.<br /><br />Re: the use of local norms, that's not the only way to do it. Allowing for special consideration of poverty, language, cultural factors, etc. can accomplish the same thing--lower qualification criteria for underrepresented groups. The use of local norms would require expensive testing of all students. Additionally, SPS would have to determine the "correct" percentage of students from each group that should qualify, setting subgroup cut-offs appropriately. In other words, quotas. But not just by race, since they'd also need to account for things like income. Also, as Lohman points out, if you're using local norms you also need to have a program that adjusts to those less-prepared students (which we don't). The eligibility criteria and the nature of the program need to be aligned. <br /><br />DeBonte may be an expert on giftedness, but that doesn't necessarily make her an expert on state law or SPS. That said, I don't disagree with what she said--just with your misinterpretation of it.<br /><br />As for teachers and principals, I'm not blaming them--but I think they could do more. Are you seriously arguing that teachers should not be asked to help gifted students (who are capable of rapid learning) get up to speed so they can qualify for--and be ready to succeed in--advanced learning and highly capable services? <br /><br />DisAPPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64776246243192532402017-07-04T11:36:49.124-07:002017-07-04T11:36:49.124-07:00Excuse typos and fatigue from combating excuses. J...Excuse typos and fatigue from combating excuses. Just do the right thing before the courts make you do it.<br /><br />Post CopAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-642474815584706052017-07-04T11:32:24.268-07:002017-07-04T11:32:24.268-07:00The cognitive tests, as used, have serious validit...The cognitive tests, as used, have serious validity issues:<br /><br />1. De Bonte talked about the proliferation of practice tests and centers to prepare for the CogAT. Students do not have equitable access to practice materials, which makes it less a cognitive test (Lohman states this clearly about the CogAT) than a preparation test.<br /><br />2. De Bonte, Lohman, NAGC and Lohman all make clear the need for correct norming, that students need to be measured against their own demographics and experience cohorts (which would also drastically scale back the eligibility of over-represented clusters.<br /><br />So no, HCC is not a cognitive-eligible program since it's scoring system is not valid.<br /><br />As far as the illegality of cut-off scores, email or call De Bonte, the expert in giftedness from NW NAGC. The quote comes from her, as does her quote about programs like HCC which exclude many gifted students "a social justice kssue."<br /><br />Also, read De Bonte about the Ned for early identification of under-represented students due to the opportunity gap. She is certainly not blaming principals and teachers for that, as you are.<br /><br />Post Copernicus<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21607744611784375812017-07-03T16:35:22.916-07:002017-07-03T16:35:22.916-07:00Just call it the high achievers and well-prepared ...Just call it the high achievers and well-prepared cohort.<br /><br />MaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18091758708293248622017-07-03T15:27:21.542-07:002017-07-03T15:27:21.542-07:00@ Post Copernicus,
You said: SPS isn't allowe...@ Post Copernicus,<br /><br />You said: <i>SPS isn't allowed to keep HCC as an achievement program only for two main reasons: First, identification for achievement only is against state law since cut-offs scores are not legal (as De Bonte's quote makes clear)...</i><br /><br />We don't have identification for achievement only--we also require cognitive testing. The program itself itself is essentially a high achiever program given the nature of the curriculum and instruction, but it's clearly not a program open to all high achievers. You have to also score at or above the 98th percentile in cognitive testing. <br /><br />I'm not sure where you got the idea that having cut-off scores is against the law. De Bonte talked about using "single scores", but it was probably in reference to this part of the WAC: "Districts shall use multiple objective criteria for identification of students who are among the most highly capable. There is no single prescribed method for identification of students among the most highly capable." That does NOT mean you can't have cut-off scores, although it might mean that you need to use a little flexibility with them. Using multiple criteria, as required, could mean that you have a CogAT cutoff and a MAP/SBAC cutoff, and students have to meet both to automatically qualify. Having no single prescribed method might mean that in addition to that pair of tests for entry, you can also allow alternate test scores in some cases. It might also mean that you sometimes loosen the cut-off scores a bit in cases where it seems to be warranted. SPS seems to do just that. From the 2190SP procedures: "SPS's established eligibility thresholds are not absolute disqualifiers; teacher and parent/guardian input are also important considerations. In order to provide equitable opportunities for all students and to uphold the intent of the WAC language regarding protected classes...the MSC will give special consideration to and assess the impact of the following factors: cultural diversity, socioeconomic status, linguistic background, and identified disability." This suggests that lower scores will be accepted for some students from underrepresented groups, does it not? While that's not the same as using local norms, it's definitely a step in that direction. By taking those additional factors into consideration, SPS could argue that they are measuring students against others with similar demographics and experiences (addressing part 2 of your argument). <br /><br />As for your statement that "putting the onus on principals and teachers to solve a civil rights issue is another diversion strategy" I think that's nonsense. If students from underrepresented groups aren't scoring high enough to qualify for HCC using the same criteria as everyone else, why shouldn't schools be held accountable to some extent? (FYI, rewarding them for making progress on this issue is not the same as punishing them for not, and it also doesn't preclude other efforts.) If we're talking about "highly capable" or "gifted" students who just haven't had the same opportunities yet to be a high achiever, don't we EXPECT them to get there? The WAC defines HC in terms of performance or potential performance. If they don't have the required performance yet, they should have the potential performance. So we need something to help get them to that level of performance! If teachers and school can't do it, who can? Isn't that their job???<br /><br />DisAPP<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41031035970534805472017-07-03T13:01:16.089-07:002017-07-03T13:01:16.089-07:00Putting the onus on principals and teachers to sol...Putting the onus on principals and teachers to solve a civil rights issue is another diversion strategy.<br /><br />Unless it makes significant changes soon, SPS will end up in court over HCC. De Bonte's presentation to the school board, which spelled out the the state law and best practices that SPS continues to defy, was icing on the cake.<br /><br />Unfortunately, systems have rarely done the right thing historically, especially when those who hold the power are benefiting so blatantly.<br /><br />And, no, SPS isn't allowed to keep HCC as an achievement program only for two main reasons: First, identification for achievement only is against state law since cut-offs scores are not legal (as De Bonte's quote makes clear); and two, the law is in place for highly capable (as in Highly Capable law) which is why it the WAC has mandated that students should only be measured against others with similar demographics and experiences.<br /><br />Otherwise, those who qualify would be comprised almost exclusively of students from well-educated parents who are demographically similar, i.e. HCC, which the state law expressly prohibits.<br /><br />Post CopernicusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24951755412962318072017-07-03T11:54:09.271-07:002017-07-03T11:54:09.271-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16868304930449681912noreply@blogger.com