tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post3645752548958637135..comments2024-03-28T23:38:22.511-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Is There a Problem in Special Education?Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27326881041529416532010-05-13T10:17:23.573-07:002010-05-13T10:17:23.573-07:00Mental retardation, or intellectual disability, ou...Mental retardation, or intellectual disability, outside of other clear "syndromes" is most often caused by prenatal alcohol exposure. This syndrome, Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, or Fetal Alcohol Effects, runs on a continuum similar to that of autism. This disorder is not often diagnosed, because it requires the mother to admit to drinking while pregnant, and diagnosis by a very well-trained professional. And kids with FAS or FAE can often appear typical in many ways. They also often have "borderline IQ's", which make learning difficult in conjunction with their neurological deficits, but none of it recognized as a "disability". <br /><br />Schools can only identify an intellectual disability by recognizing a low cognitive test score with commensurate achievement, indicating that there is not a "learning disability". <br /><br />Another common factor to children with intellectual disabilities is genetic predisposition (parent(s) with intellectual disabilities). It certainly can be misdiagnosed, especially if cognitive tests are, in fact, racially biased. <br /><br />I have witnessed many times a student with an intellectual disability be labeled "learning disabled" rather than "mentally retarded", as the former is considered a much more palatable label and still gets services to the student.Teachermomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04595356843606376723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36980422542130945782010-05-12T18:00:26.498-07:002010-05-12T18:00:26.498-07:00Actually, left-handed people have been stigmatised...Actually, left-handed people have been stigmatised for millenia... to the extent that left-handedness was in some cultures seen as a mark of evil, the devil and children were forced (beaten) to change to right-handedness...<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-handedness" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-handedness</a>Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35465434782930050002010-05-12T16:21:57.874-07:002010-05-12T16:21:57.874-07:00Ok. I'll clarify. A lot of labels like "...Ok. I'll clarify. A lot of labels like "mental retardation" have little benefit to the labeled, and lots of downside. Most people who are labeled "mentally retarded" have no other label or diagnosis. I mention it only because it is the most stigmatizing label of all, and is almost exclusively used on minorities at this point. Nobody would consider "mental retardation" as simply a difference... it would always be considered a problem, a huge problem... and that something was "wrong". (unlike left-handedness)<br /><br />Accuracy isn't the issue at all. Limiting a person by a label IS an issue. Something like Down Syndrome is the name of a known natural phenomema, caused by a trisomy, which is readily identifiable on inspection (usually). Of course it is useful to have the word, and to make the dianosis. However, I'm sure most people with DS would prefer not to identified primarily by their disability.<br /><br />Contrast "mentally retarded" to left-handed... and you see the stigmatization isn't really comparable, even at the height of the left-handed stigmatization. With left-handedness, kids were simply forced to do things in a less optimal way because other people didn't know any better. And, they were sometimes thought to be obstinate.spedParenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09072882481554660636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43852162718164361272010-05-12T09:11:25.279-07:002010-05-12T09:11:25.279-07:00Downs is one of the clearest labels there is, medi...Downs is one of the clearest labels there is, medically speaking, since it can be assigned on the basis of a genetic test, and does not, like most other syndromes, involve a categorical definition of a spectrum of abilities compared to a norming population. <br /><br />And, even Downs, one of the most labellings of any qualifying SpEd syndrome, produces a vast variety of abilities. I've recently had the opportunity to learn this personally, and, though I am fairly well read on the science of developmental disabilities, I was shocked to realize how poor my understanding was, until I was actually confronted with a particular individual, with a particular spectrum of abilities and needs. "Downs" as a label might have told me things I needed to consider and look for, but it certainly didn't describe the full spectrum of characteristics that defined an individual child's educational (and health) needs. <br /><br />And that's with Downs, where we can say "yes" or "no" with about as much clarity as exists anywhere. Everything else is just more complciated than that. <br /><br />The development of the human mind is a mysterious and magical thing, bound to frustrate anyone who is seeking simplicity. <br /><br />I like having this theoretical discussion, because it forces us to consider what we think, but I do also think that some of the discussion is semantic ("label" v not label, entitlement v need, etc.). <br /><br />I think many of us actually agree with each other, that some children have needs that are not typical, with variable degrees of atypicality, and that the educational system needs to address these needs (all of them).zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7578774108848149452010-05-12T08:24:49.736-07:002010-05-12T08:24:49.736-07:00spedParent, your comment is going to be unintellig...spedParent, your comment is going to be unintelligible to the people who think of mental retardation mostly in terms of obvious syndromes such as Down's, and aren't aware of students potentially being misclassified. Unless you mean that even people with something like classic Down syndrome should have no labels, which I can't agree with (downright dangerous when you think of all the serious health problems that could get missed).<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90617412967050896062010-05-11T23:27:03.138-07:002010-05-11T23:27:03.138-07:00Look, a label like "mental retardation"...Look, a label like "mental retardation" is as wrong as it gets. There's no..."well, you're just different" about an MR label. The only way to beat the baggage out of that label, is pretty much to get rid of the label. Currently, it nearly exclusively used for minority students... and others with no way to remove the baggage.spedParenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09072882481554660636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61032859766823388542010-05-11T22:51:45.640-07:002010-05-11T22:51:45.640-07:00I understand that there is a lot of baggage that c...I understand that there is a lot of baggage that comes with the label, but that baggage is there because folks like Rosemond choose to apply it. The baggage comes not so much with the label as with the idea that means "wrong" instead of "different". Believe me, the choice of left-handedness wasn't thoughtless. It used to be that left-handedness was thought to be "wrong" instead of different and it came with a whole lot of baggage. Children, in the twentieth century, had the left-handedness beaten out of them.<br /><br />We can learn, as a society, to remove the baggage from the label.<br /><br />And I didn't get the vibe that this guy was boo-hooing over the stigma or the loss of academic opportunity that comes with the label. I got the feeling that he was bemoaning the "entitlement" that he perceived as coming with the label.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21696056707441969762010-05-11T17:29:21.240-07:002010-05-11T17:29:21.240-07:00Toni and Charlie, you seem not to understand this...Toni and Charlie, you seem not to understand this issue very well.<br /><br />Toni, to get to see an autism specialist PRIVATELY... there's at least a six month wait. And then.. maybe you will want a second opinion. You won't be diagnosed for a very long time. And, 6 months is an eternity for a toddler. If you are referenced by a school district for possible special education qualification, they have to see you in something like 30 days... at which point they will determine whether or not you qualify for services. If you're school aged... theres a whole process which starts with a SIT meeting. From the SIT meeting they're supposed to figure out if the general ed teachers can do anything. Often the SIT process is completely bypassed or minimized. Services must begin immediately if you are found to qualify. Qualification is pretty variable...some schools do hand it out like candy. Other schools don't.<br /><br />As to labeling (or not labeling) being preferable. Well, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not good. And no. It isn't like "left handed". There's a whole lot of baggage that goes with this. Being in special education, whatever program it is, often leads to marginalization, and marginal tracks of education with reduced opportunity and reduced expecations. So... sure, there's some help available (maybe)... but then you may be tracked away from many opportunities.<br /><br />I think what Rosemond is saying is... "Wouldn't it be a lot better if teachers just did what each kid needed? Wouldn't that be better than tracking and diagnosing and medicalizing? Doesn't the whole funding following the label create an incentive to do the wrong thing?"<br /><br />You may agree or not... but that's his point.<br /><br />And, by golly, of course it would be better if teachers would just do the right thing by each kid. But, historically teachers and schools have failed to teach students with disabilities. So, congress passed IDEA and we have IEPs... to make them do what they wouldn't do otherwise.spedParenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09072882481554660636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87062104427985237642010-05-11T14:29:37.576-07:002010-05-11T14:29:37.576-07:00Of course there are gray areas where we don't ...Of course there are gray areas where we don't know whether something is a variant of normal or something that should be considered "wrong with" the person. I have severe, but correctable, myopia. I happen to think of it as something wrong with me, but it would be all the same if I thought of my elongated eyeballs as a variant of normal. I'd still buy glasses.<br /><br />Come to think of it, though, I really don't want anyone thinking my degree of myopia is "normal" enough that they start letting people like me drive without corrective lenses.(Mr. Magoo wouldn't be in it.) So maybe I am invested in the label after all.<br /><br />I've quoted Fernette and Brock Eide on the subject of labels before: they say that labels are like lenses, where the right one helps you see everything more clearly, but the wrong one makes everything worse.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1558432082093285812010-05-11T08:13:20.105-07:002010-05-11T08:13:20.105-07:00I've heard a similar issue that people are rai...I've heard a similar issue that people are raising here about bilingual pull-out education -- the lack/inability of good coordination between the general ed/bilingual teachers. The story I've heard is the naive expectation that the general ed curriculum would be "repeated" in the ELL classroom (but with language support). <br /><br />That plan seemed to me (not an teacher, not bilingual, not . . . so my opinion is uneducated) seemed obviously untenable to me. <br /><br />What I see is that both the general ed/special ed teacher would require planning time (and planning time together) in order to be able to coordinate the education of their common students. I don't see this, or any of the other necessary changes that seem to follow from a plan to serve students within the general ed classroom happening very well.zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71046753955163603972010-05-11T07:39:29.816-07:002010-05-11T07:39:29.816-07:00This was Seattle Children's Hospital's wai...This was Seattle Children's Hospital's wait time for ADOS testing as of last summer.ARBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219946488545334090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72794875310971709632010-05-11T07:17:29.661-07:002010-05-11T07:17:29.661-07:00"-Parents who suspect their child has autism ..."-Parents who suspect their child has autism usually have to wait 6+ months to even be tested "<br /><br />Only if you rely on the district for testing, which personally, would be my last stop. Your child's physician should be able to diagnose Autism and if he/she can't or won't they can refer you to an Autism specialist. If you are low income you can use your Medicaid plan. You do not need to rely on the district. <br /><br />I don't think Rosemond is at all saying that children with Autism should not be served. I think he is saying that way to many kids are being diagnosed (and medicated in many cases) with all kinds of different "disorders" when in fact many of these kids are perfectly normal, just different, as Charlie points out with the left handed kid.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26971076403212777562010-05-11T06:59:34.657-07:002010-05-11T06:59:34.657-07:00I don't know if I agree with him or disagree w...I don't know if I agree with him or disagree with him. From this brief column in the Times it appears to me that HE disagrees with him.<br /><br />He clearly thinks that kids should get individualized instruction that addresses their individual differences, but he clearly dislikes the process by which that individualized instruction is rationed. More than anything else, he clearly dislikes how those differences are labeled.<br /><br />For a guy that complains about the focus on labels, he sure focuses a lot on labels.<br /><br />Here's the crux of the problem: he equates a diagnosis with the statement that something is "wrong" rather than just "different". Only the diagnosis doesn't mean that something is wrong unless he injects that connotation into it. He could just as easily interpret the diagnosis as "different" without any sense of wrongness about it.<br /><br />For example, some people are left-handed. That's a real physiological difference from right-handedness. It's not the result of a perspective; it's real. But it isn't wrong; it's just different from right-handedness. No big deal (unless you make a big deal of it), they just need some different instruction or accomodation - like left-handed scissors.<br /><br />Some people have more trouble decoding text than most folks. We don't have to believe that means that there's something wrong with them; that is their natural state. It is, as Mr. Rosemond would say, as God made them. How can that be wrong? It is, however, different from most folks. No big deal (unless you make a big deal of it), they just need some different instruction or accomodation.<br /><br />So let's not get hung up on labels - whether they are there or not. Instead, let's focus on getting students the instruction they each need to succeed, which isn't going to be the same for all of them.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51179732168459429162010-05-11T06:52:23.785-07:002010-05-11T06:52:23.785-07:00Some random thoughts:
-Because I wouldn't sel...Some random thoughts:<br /><br />-Because I wouldn't sell my soul to have my sweet special child wake up typical this morning. <br /><br />-This article demeans the daily struggles of parents and teachers and special needs children.<br /><br />-IEPs aren't handed out like candy. There is a fairly high threshold to meet. After that, you need to obtain a set of steel cohones to deal with SPS. <br /><br />-Parents who suspect their child has autism usually have to wait 6+ months to even be tested (there is an accepted medical/psychological test, called ADOS). It isn't diagnosed on a whim.<br /><br />I could say more, but I'll stop here.ARBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07219946488545334090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62654029059212598192010-05-11T06:17:22.043-07:002010-05-11T06:17:22.043-07:00I've read several of John Rosemond's books...I've read several of John Rosemond's books (Teen Proofing, Ending the Homework Hassle, and Diseasing of America's children).<br /><br />I love his refreshing, back to basics, parent the way grandma did, approach. He's straight forward and doesn't use any psycho babble. He cuts right through all of the crap and gets straight to the point, although you do have to get through some jesus praising along the way.<br /><br />And no, he's not a charter school plant or proponent. He does however have an agenda which is to make himself a whole lot of money selling his books and doing tours....nothing wrong with that though it's the American dream. He's was a practicing family and teen psychologist for many years so is certainly qualified to give out his advice, whether you agree with what he has to say or not.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72079974663912747322010-05-11T06:15:49.057-07:002010-05-11T06:15:49.057-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72286347132023659582010-05-11T06:06:44.487-07:002010-05-11T06:06:44.487-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2296197466819218612010-05-10T23:16:33.403-07:002010-05-10T23:16:33.403-07:00Thanks TeacherMom, for your dedication to student...Thanks TeacherMom, for your dedication to students with disabilities. I think everybody realizes that the situation with special-ed isn't due to the teachers working in the trenches. And that isolated resource rooms, instead of "push in" as you call it, is a result of inadequate funding. You must be at a really great school if you don't see general ed teachers gladly washing their hands of students in special education. You are right about RTI. That is really just a powerpoint presentation.spedParenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09072882481554660636noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82023299423722482072010-05-10T19:58:58.901-07:002010-05-10T19:58:58.901-07:00Oh yeah, I am a special ed resource teacher and a ...Oh yeah, I am a special ed resource teacher and a parent of a child with special needs who does not currently qualify for special ed.<br /><br />And I do agree somewhat with Rosemond saying that we expect kids to all do well in everything. And that is not realistic. But I have not seen gen.ed teachers act like this was news to them and that they had to get all kids with any lagging skills out of their room.Teachermomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04595356843606376723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42103774487560593242010-05-10T19:55:23.464-07:002010-05-10T19:55:23.464-07:00The resource room model really does not fit the el...The resource room model really does not fit the elementary model well, because there are not discrete "periods" that are school-wide. <br /><br />However, it is not a matter of the gen. ed. teacher "passing the buck" and the resource teacher "doing whatever she wants". It is a very complicated process to schedule an elementary resource room, and special ed teachers are expected to deliver specially designed instruction, not just whatever the kid brings from class (though we help with that, too).<br /><br />Special ed is not the only "pull-out" program, and none of them are ideal at the elementary level. Ideally, we would have smaller class sizes and "push-in" services only. But the funding is not available for that. I currently work with kids from 11 different gen ed classrooms - how much time do you think I can spend in each of these rooms?<br /><br />This myth of children being over-identified to generate funds really sends me over the edge. Did you know that special ed funding is only determined by the number of special ed students enrolled at the Oct. headcount deadline? The whole $30 dollars that comes for supplies for each kid is also determined at the beginning of the year. So identifying kids throughout the year gives me more work and no more money.<br /><br />The main problem right now with special education is that there is no funding for other types of intervention/the RTI model. So for some schools, the only way to get any help for a student who is struggling is to qualify them for special ed. If RTI were a reality instead of a cool acronym to talk about, there would be way fewer kids identified for special ed.Teachermomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04595356843606376723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59393225468815747042010-05-10T19:19:10.540-07:002010-05-10T19:19:10.540-07:00The notion of disability... is largely a cultural ...The notion of disability... is largely a cultural one. As our culture has decided that students are supposed to fit to a strict standardized mold... we need a vocabulary to describe those who can not fit that standard mold. We have standardized tests 4 times a year now, noting every possible discrepancy and deviation from the "standard". Fall too far, one way or the other, and it may be useful to describe and label this situation as a "disability"... especially when money and help are available for labeling a disability.<br /><br />The problem with the label, and special ed... as EK notes, is that it is often a track to nowhere. And, general educators feel free to pass the buck and leave the student to somebody else, usually a resource room teacher sitting in a room doing whatever she wants.spedvocatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06856421602337448025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63532294613557746412010-05-10T18:30:54.499-07:002010-05-10T18:30:54.499-07:00Rosemond is not someone that was ever on my extens...Rosemond is not someone that was ever on my extensive shelf of parenting & education books.<br />I feel that learning differences can be un/misdiagnosed quite frequently.<br />This can be harmful depending on extent of support &/or tracking.<br /><br />For daughter with LD's who attended a private school that the Gates family is quite familiar with- the interdisciplinary nature of the curriculum, the small class sizes and the flexible grouping made "pullout time" ( or even diagnosis) unnecessary.<br /><br />However her sister, who is dyslexic ( I have been told that this is a diagnosis that SPS does not acknowledge as there is specific learning protocol for dyslexia- which SPS does not use <br />) was labeled " specific learning disability" instead. Which meant not much- an hour of pullout a day- sitting working on homework, while teacher dealt with the behavior issues of the other kids ( I sat in on several sessions to find out what was going on).<br /><br />It would have been much more effective in the long run- to have helped her appropriately.<br /><br /><br />But neither of her choices worked well - to be in an overcrowded classroom, while <i> maybe</i> a support teacher gave her extra help or she was made conspicuous by either the getting of the help or by leaving to go to the resource class.<br /><br />However, when she left for resource, the classroom teacher didn't make any effort to pass on work that was covered while she was gone- as she assumed the identical material was covered in resource room.<br />It wasn't.<br /><br />While those things could be blamed on the teachers- the principal IMO was also at fault in the hiring and leadership for said teachers.Jet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9519063375689211642010-05-10T18:20:19.144-07:002010-05-10T18:20:19.144-07:00Maureen, although each student with an IEP genera...Maureen, although each student with an IEP generates twice the money as those without an IEP... that money doesn't show up at the building. The district uses the money it receives from the state on behalf of the disabled students, to fund the various special education programs. And, the district skims the special ed student's basic ed dollars off. But, the basic education funding is supposed to follow the students, in and out of special eduation. The basic education funding is supposed to be spent on both general and special education. Special education funding was never supposed to be the sole source of funding for special education students. It was supposed to cover their excess costs.<br /><br />Yes, the purple book does not describe, in any way, how special ed students will be funded while they are in special ed. Obviously, the district is spending money on special ed staff. That funding isn't listed in the purple book. The purple book only indicates how general ed will be funded. It only demonstrates how buildings are funded NOT to serve special education students in the least restrictive environment. If self-contained students do go to general ed.... there won't be a whole seat there for them. Who wants to sit in half a seat?<br /><br />PS. <a href="http://wssec.org/" rel="nofollow">Here </a> is the best website discussing these issues. In particular, click on the position paper on special education funding for details.spedvocatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06856421602337448025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52718347815874707932010-05-10T17:29:28.618-07:002010-05-10T17:29:28.618-07:00spedvocate you say: First off, each special educat...<b>spedvocate</b> you say: <i>First off, each special education student generates double the number of dollars into the district than kids without IEPs.</i><br /><br />I was pretty sure that was true. Can you tell me where that shows up on a building's budget? Is it part of the "Per student Allocation?" <br /><br />The <a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/budget/purplebook/11/wssmodel.pdf" rel="nofollow">purplebook wssmodel </a>says (for K-8s ):<br /><br /><i>Non-staff dollars per student are $140.50 for K-5 and $290 for 6-8. ....Free and Reduced Lunch allocations are $87.74 for half-day kindergarten, $175.48 for<br />full-day kindergarten, $199.69 for first through 3rd grades and $254.15 for fourth and fifth<br />and $439.72 for sixth through eighth.</i><br /><br />So it doesn't indicate any additional 'cash' for kids with IEPs. (over and above what gen ed gets) My quick calculation shows me that our "Per Student Allocation" matches up reasonably well with those non-staff dollars, so I guess as long as those dollars are put toward the classroom teachers, it's a wash.(?) Of course that means that they expect those "non-staff" dollars are going to staff--that seems odd?<br /><br />I'm guessing that the extra dollars that follow the kids with IEP are going to pay for the higher average cost per kid of the resource room and/or self-contained special ed instructors and IAs?Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63527717881595384182010-05-10T16:46:36.778-07:002010-05-10T16:46:36.778-07:00Okay, so is a learning disability low on the scale...<i>Okay, so is a learning disability low on the scale versus autism? Is this the battle being fought between parents (or will it become one as we all chase after education dollars)? Is this the battle that districts are facing as they face more and more students with a disorder and have to stretch the Special Education dollars further? <br /></i><br /><br />Uh. Learning disability and autism aren't really remotely similar. This comment represents a total lack in understanding or experience. Profoundly LD students... still aren't autistic. A less autistic student, doesn't look LD. Some students are both. It isn't a "scale". All disabilities come in varying degrees, but they don't meld into 1 another.<br /><br />The "battle" isn't in stretching special ed dollars either. That also suggests a deep lack in understanding of this issue. Special ed dollars are PER PUPIL. The more pupils, the more dollars. Pretty simple, and that is the motivation to diagnose a disability... you get more money. Duh.spedvocatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06856421602337448025noreply@blogger.com