tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post4391235333674248453..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Math CurriculaMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63854833120206576762010-07-27T16:54:29.485-07:002010-07-27T16:54:29.485-07:00The US textbooks are deeply flawed in many respect...The US textbooks are deeply flawed in many respects - principally, they were written, but not adequately tested or carefully edited.kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43069979503848119472010-07-27T16:51:10.562-07:002010-07-27T16:51:10.562-07:00Its been my experience that a 'popular' te...Its been my experience that a 'popular' textbook is by necessity written by skilled writers. <br /><br />There are themes within a book that get incorporated throughout the entire series. Every problem is selected and tested and weeded out. During the development phase of Singapore, CPM, and Challenging Mathematics each problem was carefully scrutinized and written over and over for a particular spectrum of students. <br /><br />Foremost each book is written in a style that can be understood by a student who's primary language is not English. That requires a very, sophisticated and talented writer.<br /><br />These books were originally written for sheltered English classes and they were so popular with students and parents the textbooks were introduced into mainstream English classes. You have the same problems in the US as you do in Asia and Canada - how do you mainstream non-English speaking students. <br /><br />The TIMSS results speak for themselves and the US publishers have fabricated the research - foremost by disallowing any research that compares Singapore with current state-adopted materials. <br /><br />Its because billions have gone into their own research and they can't start over.kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49105325526031648662010-07-25T23:49:21.195-07:002010-07-25T23:49:21.195-07:00It seems to me that if we are talking about better...It seems to me that if we are talking about better skills in solving story problems yes these can certainly be taught.<br /><br />The Singapore Model Method which is started in grade 3 is certainly testament to that fact.<br /><br />Again with proper skills, what might be thought of as problems can become exercises for the skilled student.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51265091978524080712010-07-24T18:03:18.887-07:002010-07-24T18:03:18.887-07:00If the best that NCTM can do is lie with statistic...If the best that NCTM can do is lie with statistics and make reform math look superior to all the rest and both camps reado;u concede that, yes, there is an racial achievement gap in testing - then what will become the solution to our problem. <br /><br />How long must children be forced to endure another textbook that is as bad as Core Plus or Discovering Math or Everyday Math or ...<br /><br />Stay tuned while we watch Mr Gates and Mr Broad attempt to make KIPP Schools more palatable for the public - Success for All!!<br /><br />Reform math, the public's scorn, makes for good bearbait throughout all of education. Any politicians with lofty aspirations and looking for a reality check or a chance to swim in quicksand ought to endorse Everyday Math, the pariah of leperish textbooks.kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15046650404718283982010-07-24T08:04:17.454-07:002010-07-24T08:04:17.454-07:00Anonymous said:
"Some of the reform math goa...Anonymous said:<br /><br /><i>"<b>Some of the reform math goals do seem valuable,</b> but there really are many people who are not able to successfully learn math with the current curriculum."</i><br /><br />Goals without effective well designed plans to attain the goals are worthless. SPS math has been delivering close to worthless for so many students at so many grade levels for so long that MGJ's decision to Appeal Spector's High School math instructional materials decision just fit right in. MGJ was backed by the often clueless rubber-stampers Carr, Sundquist, Martin-Morris and Maier.<br /><br />Without a sound background of basics most everything becomes a problem.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26507214165428553212010-07-22T18:35:56.789-07:002010-07-22T18:35:56.789-07:00My child had a high school math teacher who used a...My child had a high school math teacher who used an unusual strategy (to me anyway) to teach team problem solving. It was in an advanced class so that may have contributed to the reason it was successful.<br /><br /> Every Friday he gave a group quiz. He assigned the groups & they changed every week. He graded only one of the papers from each group. So everyone in the group got the grade of that one student. At the beginning of the year, kids were very upset about it. Then they learned to talk to each other about the problem solving, debate and defend their reasoning & trouble shoot each other’s papers. They had to work together & agree on how all their papers would look. With different personalities every week, they could not make assumptions about how to work together or who had the correct answers. For my child, having to debate other kids helped with sorting through problem solving techniques and cemented good ones. <br /><br /> A larger part of their grade was the individual unit tests he gave, but I came to think the group tests were a valuable learning tool.Rose Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06502791495668486857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55556351741313982922010-07-22T14:01:34.482-07:002010-07-22T14:01:34.482-07:00before this diary disappears ... and another few d...before this diary disappears ... and another few days and another week winds away ... <br /><br />THANKS EVERYONE - it is interesting and useful to hear what parents are thinking and what parents are living with. <br /><br />I was discussing this thread with a co-worker ... to really really respond to everyone and their different points would take the rest of the summer - except we couldn't, because there is a lot of stuff which happens in school which isn't for public consumption*! I've yet to figure out how to explain this job to those who haven't done it, and, I don't think anyone has figured out how to explain it. <br /><br />THANKS EVERYONE<br /><br />BM<br /><br />*remember - high school kids are NOT legal cuz they are physiologically immature! <br />IF teachers were to openly discuss issues in public forums, people would figure out which kids they were talking about - and then those ADOLESCENT issues for some kid would be public knowledge forever. Aside from the fact that it is just wrong to hang stupid ADOLESCENT things around people's necks forever, <br /><br />aside from the little itty bitty thing - how would you like some dumb thing(s) you did at 15 or 17 or 15-17 hung around your neck forever (do unto others as you would ...) <br /><br />aside from the decent thing to do, it is usually illegal to discuss stuff that adolescents do!MathTeacher42https://www.blogger.com/profile/07157900103432833615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51091445750841461582010-07-21T15:40:31.522-07:002010-07-21T15:40:31.522-07:00My take on the "collaboration" and "...My take on the "collaboration" and "problem solving" issues is this:<br />1. Many (but not all) of the skills used in problem solving can be taught. A few elements (creativity, etc.) may be more in the nature of "gifts," but can be nurtured -- with the understanding that like musical ability or artistic talent - we aren't all going to end up in the same place.<br />2. The problem with using discovery methods that rely a great deal on collaborative and group work is that "math skills and knowledge" and "ability to problem solve in groups" are very different knowledge sets -- and to ignore the learning styles of children who best learn math through "mastery" methods is a huge disservice to them. First, teach them math -- in whatever way works (and it is not the job of the child to show up with learning abilities that match however teachers want to teach it -- it is the adults' responsibility to figure out how to best help kids learn). THEN, if you want, pose problems that require the development of problem solving skills and the ability to work together well in groups. In my oldest child's high school, the science department would announce, each term, a "problem" that required lots of complex thinking skills -- and the entire campus had 4 to 5 weeks to work on it -- it would be discussed in various science classes, kids interested in it could be found outside of classes discussing how they thought it should be approached, and what data they had developed, and how valid it was. But they didn't hold substantive skills (like math) hostage to whether, and how well, the kids could collaborate and problem solve as a group.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34496539490390782062010-07-21T13:07:17.082-07:002010-07-21T13:07:17.082-07:00"most people can do the code (yes, some are b..."most people can do the code (yes, some are better than others)... the collaboration is a lot harder. And really, there isn't a shortage of excellent coders."<br /><br />Maybe this varies by company, but my experience is just about the opposite. Pretty much any bright person with reasonable people skills can do the collaborative design work after a few years of on-the-job training. Most coders, on the other hand, are fairly mediocre, and the really good ones are very, very difficult to find. Top computer science schools require very strong algorthmic thinking skills. Very few of recent grads I've interviewed went to public school, where most had when I started interviewing in the 90s. Some of that is likely due to the economy and the cool-factor of the tech industry waning, but it is still a remarkable difference.<br /><br />The corporate IT department might be fine with the mediocre coders (and the applications show it), but that doesn't cut it for large-scale commercial software production (Microsoft, Adobe, Google, etc.).<br /><br />Again, I think problem solving, group problem solving, logic, and algorithm thinking, and mental arithmetic are all very different skills, and that all are necessary for success where I work.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-766079948493172422010-07-21T11:01:21.021-07:002010-07-21T11:01:21.021-07:00"Something is not working."
What is not..."Something is not working."<br /><br />What is not working is the level of rigor in the K-12 Reform Math that SPS has adopted. Has nothing to do with problem solving. You can take Discovery Math Algebra I and II in highshool, earn all As..but will not cover all the material that a traditional Algebra math track covers. <br /><br />Your students experience is EXACTLY what college professors have been talking about now for some time. Students coming to campus ill prepared to persue degrees requiring math skills that should have been learned in highschool.ParentofThreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15853045587227159562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88249526386197433672010-07-21T07:35:43.526-07:002010-07-21T07:35:43.526-07:00I do believe that people's problem solving ski...I do believe that people's problem solving skills can be built up with repeated practice and exposure to other people's problem solving methods.<br /><br />The current SPS curriculum does seem to have lots of exposure to different ways of looking at problems, and demonstrates lots of the "tricks" that we had to figure out for ourselves in the past. It hasn't been effective for my kids because they haven't had the opportunity to master and use whatever one or two methods work best for them first, before learning other ways of solving the same kinds of problems. Having to learn several methods before any one method is mastered has created a lot of confusion. <br /><br />Some of the reform math goals do seem valuable, but there really are many people who are not able to successfully learn math with the current curriculum. My middle schooler has needed hours and hours of extra help and extra programs (expensive!) to learn the basic arithmetic that he hasn't learned with EDM and CMP. Then there's our college sophomore who is taking a pre-calculus class this summer, after a basic math class last spring because she didn't score high enough on her school's math placement test to take calculus. She was in Spectrum, took AP classes in high school, passed the WASL in 10th grade without a problem, and passed regular SPS calculus with an "A". Something is not working.<br /><br />P.S. Sorry this ia Anonymous...it's my first post and I'm not "blog-savvy" enough yet to get my id to work. I'm sure I can get my middle schooler to help!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18428387147291047792010-07-20T22:06:52.470-07:002010-07-20T22:06:52.470-07:00Not only does the US have a larger racial disparit...Not only does the US have a larger racial disparity in achievement, but now the US has fewer high achievers. This is the worst possible scenario. Better think fast reader, public schools have only been losing ground for the past 25 years and its DOE foolishness, assisted by the Governors Roundtable and a few lumpheads, like Steen and Merlino, that got us here.kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81584461051317378342010-07-20T22:00:08.776-07:002010-07-20T22:00:08.776-07:00http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/how-we-...http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/how-we-measure-up<br /><br />Where 44 percent of Singapore’s students reached the TIMSS “advanced international benchmark,” only 7 percent of U.S. students did. And, in general, the longer students had remained in the U.S. school system, the worse they performed relative to their peers abroad.<br /><br /><br />Neener, neener!kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21731389185887885192010-07-20T21:50:56.806-07:002010-07-20T21:50:56.806-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.SPS momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07868844486562389924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1750720010075299032010-07-20T21:40:26.953-07:002010-07-20T21:40:26.953-07:00Reader sounds like he could have written EDM - &qu...Reader sounds like he could have written EDM - "EDM does more, while Singapore does less [problem-solving?]." <br /><br />One shouldn't confuse number of words in text with problems to solve. Muddled could also be meaningless.<br /><br />And I suppose "because energy makes it go? would be your other response." What vitamins are you taking? Are you sure they weren't approved by the DOE too?kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9416136319963096202010-07-20T21:26:38.345-07:002010-07-20T21:26:38.345-07:00The professors who had a hand in reform and were p...The professors who had a hand in reform and were paid millions also built the assessments that had to be aligned to the DOE's carefully-tested books, but to their surprise, any gains measured in test scores from using these books are at best noise while the long-term trend remains down and out. It has been ages since we heard from them and most are now retired. I still remember one old fart - 'What children need are smaller textbooks.'<br /><br />The only science more dismal than economics is math education in the US, unless you are an ecstatic.kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72693233658993227112010-07-20T21:09:53.309-07:002010-07-20T21:09:53.309-07:00Reader confuses the DOE's exemplary pedagogy w...Reader confuses the DOE's exemplary pedagogy with an even longer word called, constructivism. <br /><br />Little does reader know that constructism applies to all pedagogies, not his religion alone. How about we all chant the 'success for all' greeting and lets throw in some 'vedic math' so our students can do math 1500% faster according to researchers at Maharishi University in Bloomington. More ridiculous claims and no facts to back them up. We might as well all go believe in the sasquatch (another research project discussed at an MAA regional meeting. This isn't just a bandwagon, its a parade.kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21634432783107640382010-07-20T20:54:10.655-07:002010-07-20T20:54:10.655-07:00What is reader's standard for r-i-g-o-r?
&quo...What is reader's standard for r-i-g-o-r?<br /><br />"A. If math were a color, it would be –, because –.<br />B. If it were a food, it would be –, because –.<br />C. If it were weather, it would be –, because –." - EDM Silliness<br /><br />What would reader's solution be? Look at the results reader? Which group of students does better on tests? Students educated with Singapore textbooks or Students educated with EDM? Blame their poor result on the teachers ... Is that your religion?<br /><br />Class societies, like the US, contain ‘caste-like’<br />cultural practices that are rooted in racial origins. <br /><br />The stratification of students into lower math classes is one of those 'caste-like' practices. The racial practice by the dominant culture of using textbooks that pretend to teach fact to the lower socio-economic classes is not without historical precedence. Where else would a child be taught that 'math is hard' or that some people are born 'smart', while others will never get it. <br /><br />A non-white has a higher probability of going to college, if they are educated in a different country, than if they were educated here in the US. <br /><br />As an educator, doing nothing is the same as being a racist. It might shock reader, but the majority of classrooms have students that cannot be engaged because they cannot understand the textbooks they've been given to read.kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69566249916226356282010-07-20T19:49:55.908-07:002010-07-20T19:49:55.908-07:00kprugman, we aren't talking about "good ...kprugman, we aren't talking about "good books" vs "bad books". We're talking about reform/constructivism vs traditional, and the balance therein. Both are religious points of view. EDM are perfectly fine books, all my teachers like them, and can use them well. It isn't all that different from Singapore, but has a heavier empahsis on problem solving, and more interesting problem solving. It is easier to do "Singapore", because it actually does less.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28611939220179661902010-07-20T17:55:07.165-07:002010-07-20T17:55:07.165-07:00Techmom, most people can do the code (yes, some ar...Techmom, most people can do the code (yes, some are better than others)... the collaboration is a lot harder. And really, there isn't a shortage of excellent coders.<br /><br />EDM doesn't place a huge value, or huge amounts of time on group problem solving. I'm not sure its good at that. But, on principle, if we had something that really worked for group problem solving, it would be great. And as for communication, this is also something that we never learned back in the old days of math. People who could multiply, maybe couldn't communicate about it. That's another skill. <br /><br />Right, Wend. Teachers have to do more now. More is expected. Kids have to do more too. And, it is more difficult when you've got a disability as you mention. There's problem solving, there's critical thinking, there's communication. And, we're getting more out of it.<br /><br />Whenever we hear about "learning the algorithms"... it always turns out to be about the arithmetic. People do love the arithmetic, but they've got to do more than that.<br /><br />What I think really is a problem, is that the assessment tools aren't that good. If somebody can get an answer, or be a good mathematical thinker, but isn't a good communicator, or is ELL... the assessments don't know the difference.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48298790676206871462010-07-20T17:39:41.806-07:002010-07-20T17:39:41.806-07:00Balance continually crops up in most discussions a...Balance continually crops up in most discussions and I would ask how do you strike a balance between good books and bad books? The issue over curriculum isn't about balance, its about selecting the best textbook for students that will satisfy what parents want their kids to know. Teachers want textbooks that are easy to use, that engage all their students, and prepare them for the next level. The worst part about the DOE's exemplary math programs is that what the kids are supposed to learn gets usually forgotten from lack of use. Successful students revert to the traditional algorithms because those algorithms are more robust. They are self-checking. Students that use the non-traditional methods have to rely on calculators, the teacher, or other children to check their answers.kprugmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02126184111625382040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75182374238026906222010-07-20T17:01:33.970-07:002010-07-20T17:01:33.970-07:00Problem solving can be taught, but it's an are...Problem solving can be taught, but it's an arena ripe for differentiation. <br /><br />The next step, explaining how you solved a problem, is still totally subjective, unless it's algebra. And at that point, where's the value in bumbling around when algebra is in fact a language. Sure, you can get a group of developers together, get em' drunk, and they might give you some ninja secrets on code, but at the end of the day, code is code. Now, finding a solution to a desire that doesn't make money, and make it so essential that it makes money and helps millions of people? In general, that doesn't rise up from group think. Creativity can be encouraged, but I don't think you can teach it.<br /><br />Why does problem solving have to be an integral part of any curriculum? Ask 10 people how they fixed a leaky faucet, and you will probably listen to 10 unique explanations. It's like the classic interview question: if you were the first person to create a window blind, what steps would you take to design and make them? This is where technical writers make their rent.<br /><br />On the emphasis of group learning, which is a regular component of EDM: for my kid, this requirement only caused frustration. Let's sit as a group and be confused, while the one kid that gets it just wants to move on. Is this really helping the teacher? In her case, no, it created more work.<br /><br />I've heard a fan of EDM defend it with this: yes, it requires that you think differently, and isn't that a good thing?<br /><br />I don't think so, not when my kid goes through grades 2, 3, and 4 feeling frustrated, with shaky number sense, utterly convinced, along with many of her peers, that she's an idiot. I, along with other parents, would offer help, an alternative narrative with scratch paper and manipulatives as needed, and were uniformly told by our children: "You're not doing it right!!!" Math anxiety, anyone? <br /><br />My daughter is a solitary learner. Once she knows it, she's happy to share, but the problem solving part is done solo. Asking her to learn with 5-20 other kids doesn't work for her. I've been told she's on the cusp of an ADHD diagnosis. Who can say. She knows what works for her and what doesn't. At least she has that. <br /><br />The most beneficial group activity she had re: math was the daily facts drill. Her teacher couldn't rely on EDM, had lots of parent help, and doing times tables, sort of round robin style, was fun. Beyond that, asking 5 kids to calculate the area of their classroom, to order carpet (watch out for the toxic glue!), ended up requiring way more help. If at least one child was an expert, sure, they can show what they know, but this method still required more work for the teacher, rather than teaching the method, then letting the kids break out in groups or work solo.<br /><br />I'd like to think that Arne means well, but who is he listening to?WenDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07754473793580185814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81936074860685495362010-07-20T16:40:30.668-07:002010-07-20T16:40:30.668-07:00I work in high tech, and also have done a fair bit...I work in high tech, and also have done a fair bit of interviewing. High tech jobs do require getting along in groups, brainstorming, and group problem solving. However, many high tech jobs, particularly those that involve writing code, also involve concentrated, individual thought, deep understanding of algorithms, and juggling of multiple variables in one's head. <br /><br />There are also a fair number of people who really love the algorithmic thinking involved in old-fashioned math. It was my favorite subject, followed closely by programming, and what I see in my daughter's books leaves out most of what I really enjoyed about math.<br /><br />We need to teach both. Most of the private schools I toured fully understood this. Why can't SPS?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54920094566880449212010-07-20T16:00:47.315-07:002010-07-20T16:00:47.315-07:00I have interviewed many, many young people seeking...I have interviewed many, many young people seeking hi-tech jobs. Their skills always amaze me, as does the increase in skills beyond those who interviewed in previous decades. They are more innovative, creative, and they have applied more of their knowledge. Group problem solving, is an incredibly important skill, important for anything related to any job... or even just getting along. Perhaps, it's the most important skill. It is hard to teach, and hard to assess. That doesn't mean we should avoid it. It's always these old timer math teachers who poo-poo that. One step outside the classroom, and the importance of collaborative problem solving would be obvious.<br /><br />While MathTeacher42 may think I'm condescending... this attitude represents the height of condescension. "Well, I learned to problem solve because I'm just really smart. Nobody fostered my curiousity or problem solving predilection. Just really too bad for those dummies that weren't born with superior minds. They should just stick to basics. Let's keep doing those people doing basics until they're good it... oops too bad never got to anything meaningful." It's exactly the attitude that will keep bloggers from being elected to anything.<br /><br />The way to learn to problem solve... is to try it often, on well thought out successively challenging problems. And, you teach persistence. The way to teach problem solving, is to model it, and teach students how to create models. Maureen also lists many other ways.<br /><br />I don't know much about math pedagogy, or what is taught about it in math-ed, or what math teachers are made to sit through. I can imagine it could be awful, and full of worthless edu-babble. I wouldn't say I'm a proponent of "reform". Just that there's a reasonable balance. My kids have always gotten a good dose of "commit to memory", even with the most reform curricula. But, that isn't the main point.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6408967059474270862010-07-20T15:46:46.669-07:002010-07-20T15:46:46.669-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.com