tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post4571206193607534851..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Segregation and Seattle SchoolsMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7941562892165130732018-01-14T10:53:13.177-08:002018-01-14T10:53:13.177-08:00Poverty affects all, I have watched several geneal...Poverty affects all, I have watched several genealogy shows and I am astonished at the number of famous people who know very little about even their own grandparents' backgrounds.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36753827911097733332018-01-12T09:46:24.346-08:002018-01-12T09:46:24.346-08:00"Amen to that (but also keeping in mind white..."Amen to that (but also keeping in mind white privilege)."<br />Agreed Melissa. That is real and valid. Which is also why I also stated if in a room all those HC haters (& probably HC supporters as well) would make assumptions about that white kid's background". It can work both ways to the kids benefit and also even detriment in certain situations. <br />But as you have also mentioned there is all sorts of privilege as well we don't talk about as much. This kid also has a physical disability. Socioeconomics and education are also really huge privileges that can have multi generational consequences. <br /><br />Also, contrary to what US history had traditionally taught, the oppressive British class system in England was not left in England when the colonists arrived in America. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/books/review-white-trash-ruminates-on-an-american-underclass.html<br /><br />I would also argue that the most marginalized among us often don't have their stories widely told. History is wide subject. Unless you are a historican in a University, or a geneologist many people may even be unfamiliar with their own family histories. <br /><br />Poverty affects allAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31725280448442696952018-01-11T17:55:12.294-08:002018-01-11T17:55:12.294-08:00@half full (apparently a different half full than ...@half full (apparently a different half full than the moniker I have used for some time) wrote: <br /><br /><i>By PC blather do you mean the idea that we are one society and should share the burden of past discrimination towards less fortunate kids?... PC "blather" is about the future...where all schools are good schools for all kids.</i><br /><br />So which is it--we're supposed to sacrifice our own children's needs for those less fortunate, or we should pretend that all schools are good for all kids (and the teachers are unicorns and the playground is full of rainbows to climb on)?<br /><br /><i>One could say it's irrational and unfounded fears that drive parents into private school and the HCC.</i><br />Or one could say what drives parents into private or HCC are things like academic experience and evidence that something isn't working for their child; teacher recommendations to find a more appropriate program; social-emotional-behavioral problems that are getting worse; feelings of isolation; having experienced bullying; inadequate compliance with IEPs and 504 plans; the never-ending dramas over splits and reassignments and curricula and transportation and services and pathways and such; and so on. Making parents out to be irrational may serve to make your point, but unfortunately it's not true. It also doesn't get us any further along in discussing this issue. <br /><br />Half Full (v.1)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69324840032633763122018-01-11T14:43:21.007-08:002018-01-11T14:43:21.007-08:00One could say it's irrational and unfounded fe...<i>One could say it's irrational and unfounded fears that drive parents into private school and the HCC.</i><br /><br />One could say that, but it would be baseless hate mongering and it's not true. To look at the list of private schools in the area, it's clear that a huge percentage of them are religious. Do families choose religiously affiliated schools out of irrational and unfounded fears? They'd all be different fears then, presumably, because we've got catholic schools and islamic schools and jewish schools and protestant schools and on and on. Are you saying all those families have the same irrational and unfounded fears? I don't buy it. M.R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84577872589587182682018-01-11T14:42:05.072-08:002018-01-11T14:42:05.072-08:00It looks like since HCC is basically being shut do...It looks like since HCC is basically being shut down by SPS those who benefit from the HCC service are trying to cause a huge racial argument by trying to resurrect the previously dangerous practice of forced busing.<br /><br />They must feel if SPS has ruined it for them and theirs then they will ruin it for all unless SPS yields to their demands.<br /><br />This is classic, Alinsky would be proud of the HCC crowd.<br /><br />JS Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19767277156935114982018-01-11T14:23:05.482-08:002018-01-11T14:23:05.482-08:00And...circle back to Parents Involved in Community...And...circle back to <i>Parents Involved in Community Schools vs Seattle School District</i>:<br /><br /><i>In the Seattle case, the school district has gone further in describing the methods and criteria used to determine assignment decisions based on individual racial classifications, but it has nevertheless failed to explain why, in a district composed of a diversity of races, with only a minority of the students classified as “white,” it has employed the crude racial categories of “white” and “non-white” as the basis for its assignment decisions. Far from being narrowly tailored, this system threatens to defeat its own ends, and the district has provided no convincing explanation for its design.</i><br /><br />One could argue SPS is still making decisions that "threaten to defeat its own ends." <br /><br />history lessonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57180687748075927772018-01-11T14:05:07.954-08:002018-01-11T14:05:07.954-08:00NE Parent, what you say is true about different co...NE Parent, what you say is true about different countries of origin for the label "Asian" - it still doesn't make it right to try to ignore any person of Asian origin as a minority. <br /><br />"People should NEVER make assumptions about wealth, family history, based upon someone's appearance." <br /><br />Amen to that (but also keeping in mind white privilege).Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17840582017338639172018-01-11T13:35:35.880-08:002018-01-11T13:35:35.880-08:00"Not just PC blather but actual evidence. Sur... "Not just PC blather but actual evidence. Surely if they are wrong, there would be no problem supplying evidence, and that would be so much more efficient than these discussions that go forever in circles and end up nowhere."<br /><br />By PC blather do you mean the idea that we are one society and should share the burden of past discrimination towards less fortunate kids?<br /><br />One could say it's irrational and unfounded fears that drive parents into private school and the HCC.<br /><br />Where is the evidence that private school and self-contained gifted programs produce better outcomes?<br /><br />What does it even mean? More money? More life satisfaction? Better health?<br /><br />PC "blather" is about the future where people don't live in poverty and hopelessness. <br /><br />Where all schools are good schools for all kids.<br /><br />half fullAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34274824044635156102018-01-11T12:48:49.848-08:002018-01-11T12:48:49.848-08:00@ Bubba
You say, “Choice” IS a privilege and the ...@ Bubba<br /><br />You say, <i>“Choice” IS a privilege and the “open” enrollment process is closed to some due to institutionalized barriers (racism).</i><br /><br />Cleveland is an option school. Families have to choose it during the open enrollment process to go there. Cleveland's student body is<br />Asian 48.5%<br />Black / African American 28.3%<br />Hispanic / Latino of any race(s) 10.0%<br />White 7.0%<br />Two or More Races 5.5%<br />American Indian / Alaskan Native 0.6%<br />Native Hawaiian / Other Pacific Islander 0.1%<br /><br />The students at this option school are 93% students of color. So, institutional racism is clearly not keeping students of color out.M.R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59884503489981136592018-01-11T12:16:37.346-08:002018-01-11T12:16:37.346-08:00The Vox article was very interesting. Thanks for p...The Vox article was very interesting. Thanks for posting it, Melissa. One of the main problems with the Vox article, though, is that it didn't mention Asians once. We can't have a conversation about race in Seattle public schools without talking about Asians, so articles like this that are based on research primarily in the U.S. South are only of limited use in application to Seattle.<br /><br />And you can tell that I'm not the only one who raised an eyebrow. Just look at the correction at the bottom of the article: "Correction: A previous version of this piece said American schools were as segregated now as they were 50 years ago, but it’s actually schools in the South that are as segregated as they were 50 years ago." Quite a correction- essentially saying, "whoops, we thought the South was the whole U.S."<br /><br />We just can't have this conversation in Seattle without including Asians. Isn't Franklin's student body essentially 50% Asian? That is not a trivial piece of the puzzle.<br /><br />I think we also can't have the conversation without talking about option schools, choice assignments, and private schools. Because many neighborhoods are nowhere near as segregated as the public schools in the neighborhoods would suggest.S Leenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-29358565596719665112018-01-11T11:25:48.981-08:002018-01-11T11:25:48.981-08:00@ NE parent "Asian is too broad a category.&q...@ NE parent "Asian is too broad a category." You know what? So is white. Also, different ethnicities & histories & differences in socioeconomics. There is also generational poverty. <br /><br />People should NEVER make assumptions about wealth, family history, based upon someone's appearance. In addition there is a huge amount of poverty and lack of opportunity that affect people who check the "white" box. Maybe less apparent in Seattle than outside of Seattle. But there are lots of them. <br /><br />As I sat down to help an HC student's parent understand the mess about what HC is in different grades, HC pathways, boundaries & HS, I am contemplating why we talk so much about access, yet people are not as concerned with helping F& R lunch kids who are actually enrolled in HC. This kid's parent is very confused about the program (like the rest of us) and the kid accessed it very late and almost not at all. <br /><br />We have no idea the numbers as I don't think SPS has released the data and I am sure it is very small. However they exist. This student born to a 16 year old, shares a room with a parent in a group rental house and also has a disability. But likely if in a room all those HCC haters would make all sorts of wrong assumptions about background due to also being white.<br /><br />Racism is real and intersects with socioeconomics. There is also a history in the country of discrimination against poor people of all races. Poor whites included. However, people also need to be looked at as individuals. <br />Poverty affects all Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58132217130832124122018-01-11T04:31:56.380-08:002018-01-11T04:31:56.380-08:00Ignoring race by pretending/ignoring that our poli...Ignoring race by pretending/ignoring that our policies impact disproportionally along the lines of race— how’s that court finding working with our current system of “open enrollment” and school choice. “Choice” IS a privilege and the “open” enrollment process is closed to some due to institutionalized barriers (racism). Enrolling students without regard to race is one thing. Maintaining a system where we do not differentiate equality and equity is another. Bubbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09013367180203996644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10916242454236521262018-01-10T20:31:54.616-08:002018-01-10T20:31:54.616-08:00Anyone catch the NPR piece on racial wage gap toda...Anyone catch the NPR piece on racial wage gap today? Biggest wage gap in the restaurant industry exists in... drum roll.... the oh so liberal and progressive San Francisco Bay Area, which many would recognize as a sister area to our great PNW.I guess Hater would probably chalk it up to SES, or some other excuse. The white patrons tip black servers an average of $5 less per hour than white servers. So Haters Gonna Hate, I’m sure you got some excuse.., but it’s pretty clear to most folk, you can’t hide behind SES, which is clear to everyone except those who cling to their superiority measures.<br /><br />LoverAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37413463264252430242018-01-10T17:37:40.783-08:002018-01-10T17:37:40.783-08:00"More and more, parents see a school in the c..."More and more, parents see a school in the context of what it can achieve for their child: Education for all has lost out to Princeton for mine."<br /><br />Comments like these are used to smear the middle class, while the wealthy put their kids in private schools and skate by untouched. Often, like Cary Moon, the wealthy strike an uber-progressive pose and celebrate the possibility of using other people's children for social engineering while their own are safely removed in private school.<br /><br />Rich parents secure a good education for their kids in private school: "that's just what works for us."<br /><br />Middle-class parents seek a good education for their kids wherever they can find it: "see how selfish they are!"<br /><br />What gets lost amid this towering hypocrisy is the implication hidden even in the Time Magazine smear that these parents are correct -- integrated schools will indeed limit the education of their children. Are they correct? Rich people in private schools seem to think so. The house prices in Bellevue suggest that lots of people think so. If you want to know what people really think, ignore what they say under the watchful gaze of the PC police, and look at what they do with six-figure sums of money. Are they correct? If they are not correct, what actual evidence can you provide to convince them? Not just PC blather but actual evidence. Surely if they are wrong, there would be no problem supplying evidence, and that would be so much more efficient than these discussions that go forever in circles and end up nowhere.Outsidernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37828127371088035952018-01-10T16:19:06.888-08:002018-01-10T16:19:06.888-08:00Asian is too broad a category. It is hard to know ...Asian is too broad a category. It is hard to know for sure without more detailed info, but I suspect there is a huge gap between Asian people of different nationalities who have come to the US. If you break it down, do you see kids of Chinese and Japanese descent (often no longer considered “minority” or more realistically, less underprivileged in HCC or FRL at the same rates as other Asian groups? <br /><br />In the same way sticking HCC into a lower income school will raise average test scores without actually affecting any individual test score, lumping very different groups into one large category can really skew results.<br /><br />NE Parent <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24668639198143382722018-01-10T12:51:22.511-08:002018-01-10T12:51:22.511-08:00Great article about basketball star Jaylen Brown o...<br />Great article about basketball star Jaylen Brown on race in sports and society.<br /><br />https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/09/jaylen-brown-boston-celtics-nba-interview<br /><br />"Brown admits that, when he was 14, “It wounds you. But when I got older and went to the University of California [Berkeley] I learnt about a more subtle racism and how it filters across our education system through tracking, hidden curriculums, social stratification and things I had no idea of before. I was really emotional – because one of the most subtle but aggressive ways racism exists is through our education system.”<br /><br />Brown’s readiness to talk about politics and culture might account for the surreal suggestion in 2016 that he was “too smart” for the NBA. From the outside, ‘smart’ seemed a euphemism for ‘troublesome’. What did Brown think when, as a teenager, he heard words unlikely to be used in conjunction with a white athlete? “It was hinting at something very problematic within society. It bothered me but I was so focused on getting to where I was going I never dissected it or pointed it out to anybody."<br /><br />vine mapleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26988693268609436562018-01-10T12:20:18.644-08:002018-01-10T12:20:18.644-08:00This is a very harmful and thoughtless stereotype ...This is a very harmful and thoughtless stereotype I've seen perpetuated on this blog by a number of people that is far removed from reality and needs to stop<br /><br />No, it is NOT being perpetuated by this blog; it's said by some commenters. I have consistently pointed out this oddity about Asians somehow not being a minority. <br /><br />You're right; people either need to stop or explain to us how being Asian isn't being part of a minority.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31630722334372501852018-01-10T12:11:50.434-08:002018-01-10T12:11:50.434-08:00@Haters Hate,
"No one even shrugs at the ide...@Haters Hate,<br /><br />"No one even shrugs at the idea that asians are not considered a minority anymore."<br /><br />This is a very harmful and thoughtless stereotype I've seen perpetuated on this blog by a number of people that is far removed from reality and needs to stop.<br /><br />- 51.8% of Asians in SPS qualify for free lunch (4,051 students)<br />- Asian's free lunch status is much more similar to Hispanic stats (64.5%, 4,211 students)than White (9.6%, 2,403) <br /><br />Anti Bias<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82289873660472100762018-01-10T11:49:15.285-08:002018-01-10T11:49:15.285-08:00The court used Franklin of an example of why the S...The court used Franklin of an example of why the SPS race-based assignment plan, and the SPS idea of diversity, was <i>not</i> justifiable.<br /><br />"...at Franklin High School in Seattle, the racial tiebreaker was applied because nonwhite enrollment exceeded 69 percent, and resulted in an incoming ninth-grade class in 2000– 2001 that was 30.3 percent Asian-American, 21.9 percent African-American, 6.8 percent Latino, 0.5 percent Native-American, and 40.5 percent Caucasian. Without the racial tiebreaker, the class would have been 39.6 percent Asian-American, 30.2 percent African-American, 8.3 percent Latino, 1.1 percent Native-American, and 20.8 percent Caucasian. See App. in No. 05–908, at 308a. When the actual racial breakdown is considered, enrolling students without regard to their race yields a substantially diverse student body under any definition of diversity.13" <br /><br />history lessonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43793713720834711412018-01-10T11:17:02.865-08:002018-01-10T11:17:02.865-08:00such a narrative! of course it's all about SES...such a narrative! of course it's all about SES.<br /><br />race does however have a very strong effect on that.<br /><br />do folks here think there are not substantial remnants of the white superiority culture that allowed bondage of Africans, by our founders(conflict of interest as slaveowners(sic)), to be enshrined in the U.S. Constitution?<br /><br />Followed,after a war to end slavery as a legal economic resource but not to end oppression, by systematic state sanctioned discrimination, like right here in Seattle, the NW version of Jim Crow.<br /><br />Anyone read this article about how Portland is still a no-go zone if you're black?<br />https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/06/07/when-portland-banned-blacks-oregons-shameful-history-as-an-all-white-state/?utm_term=.fd8f923b46dc<br /><br />Also cultural oppression, Jackie Robinson? Sambo's Restaurant? Looney Tunes?<br /><br />And now it's all, ain't about race, s'about poverty!!<br /><br />Next rant will be about white inherited wealth and privilege<br /><br />W.G.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69435925269081403302018-01-10T09:52:40.374-08:002018-01-10T09:52:40.374-08:00@Haters Hate "Seriously why say "and/or ...@Haters Hate "Seriously why say "and/or racial" the achievement gaps have little to nothing to do with race. They have everything to do with SES. " <br /><br />Yes. The word is really slow to get out and I wonder why in an educated city like Seattle. Identifying the link between income and the achievement gap issue is the first step in addressing it. <br /><br />https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/21/income-achievement-gap-al_n_1105783.html<br /><br /> http://http://hechingerreport.org/growing-income-achievement-gap-overshadows-race/<br /><br />/publications/educational-leadership/may13/vol70/num08/The-Widening-Income-Achievement-Gap.aspx<br /><br />JH<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59897997103034425752018-01-10T09:51:15.963-08:002018-01-10T09:51:15.963-08:00I read the ruling when it first came out. To note...I read the ruling when it first came out. To note, the majority said that race all by itself cannot be used (as in SPS' racial tiebreaker) BUT that as part of an overall package, it could be used. That said, I think most districts became very wary of that and some started using income.<br /><br />Also, the racial tiebreaker employed by SPS had been used by white students to gain access to Franklin. That was what the district had been using as their argument - it was not just for students of color.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25174395018294074222018-01-10T09:27:42.162-08:002018-01-10T09:27:42.162-08:00Other suggested reading: the ruling on Parents Inv...Other suggested reading: the ruling on <i>Parents Involved in Community Schools vs Seattle School District,</i> the case that overturned Seattle's race-based assignment plan. <br /><br /><i>...The Seattle district, which has never operated legally segregated schools or been subject to court-ordered desegregation, classified children as white or nonwhite, and used the racial classifications as a “tiebreaker” to allocate slots in particular high schools.<br /><br />...It is well established that when the government distributes burdens or benefits on the basis of individual racial classifications, that action is reviewed under strict scrutiny.<br /><br />...We have emphasized that the harm being remedied by mandatory desegregation plans is the harm that is traceable to segregation, and that “the Constitution is not violated by racial imbalance in the schools, without more.”<br /><br />...Even when it comes to race, the plans here employ only a limited notion of diversity, viewing race exclusively in white/nonwhite terms in Seattle... In design and operation, the plans are directed only to racial balance, pure and simple, an objective this Court has repeatedly condemned as illegitimate.</i> <br /><br />https://scotusblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/05-908.pdf<br /><br />history lessonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85514332607124002172018-01-10T09:03:54.368-08:002018-01-10T09:03:54.368-08:00Messy we both agree neighborhood schools seldom ca...Messy we both agree neighborhood schools seldom can meet the HC student's needs. <br /><br />Haters hate-66Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59653897819290173152018-01-10T07:29:24.833-08:002018-01-10T07:29:24.833-08:00I strongly encourage everyone to read Ann LaGreliu...I strongly encourage everyone to read Ann LaGrelius Siqueland's Book "Without A Court Order" published in 1981. This book describes the events which led the Seattle School Board to adopt a city wide desegregation plan on December 1977.<br /><br />The desegregation of Seattle Schools was successful for many students and families. Could it be successful again? It would depend on priorities. Carol Simmonsnoreply@blogger.com