tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post4984890685454015874..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Board Meeting Part OneMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46366941090264466402009-12-14T20:30:20.177-08:002009-12-14T20:30:20.177-08:00Yes, Charlie, you are right about this blog doing ...Yes, Charlie, you are right about this blog doing the PR work of the district, especially regarding STEM. <br /><br />I recognized Melissa's work on this and thanked her for it a few posts back. And thanks to you too, Charlie! <br /><br />Without you and Melissa I don't think I would have ever even heard about the STEM school at all. It's not on our radar up here in the north end, and the district has done absolutely nothing to advertise it or engage us in any way......yet they expect 5% of us to choose the school??XX??!!!anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90386940244758958622009-12-14T12:07:18.540-08:002009-12-14T12:07:18.540-08:00It's funny. The statements made about STEM on ...It's funny. The statements made about STEM on this blog have been mixed. We are not cheerleaders, but neither are we naysayers. Whatever the talk about STEM here, it has been more talk about STEM than the District has done. This blog may have done as much (or more) to promote the program as the District has done. At least so far.<br /><br />We will see in January how many students and families come to the Open House event. Then we will get some idea of the program's ability to draw 200 freshmen for the fall of 2010.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58527270641241330852009-12-12T09:51:21.502-08:002009-12-12T09:51:21.502-08:00BL, that's functional capacity, not building s...BL, that's functional capacity, not building size. Personally, I rarely believe the functional capacity because the number goes up and down like a yo-yo. Especially for new buildings, I look at the size they say they are building to on the BEX reports. To have rebuilt Cleveland for less than a 1,000 would be quite strange but then stranger things have happened.<br /><br />The functional capacity number does become important when considering, as Seattle Citizen has, whether a school is comprehensive or option and if the district has enough seats for students who choose comprehensive.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71619664304526134592009-12-12T08:22:14.984-08:002009-12-12T08:22:14.984-08:00adhoc, if STEM works out, it will be an ALL-CYT dr...adhoc, if STEM works out, it will be an ALL-CYT draw, not just a school for the south end, and that's part of my stated concern, that the south-end lost a neighborhood school. It's possible that all the south end students could fit into RB and Franklin, but by "closing" Cleveland as a nieghborhood school we have a situation where a student who lives east of I-5 and south of I-90 has to go to one of the other two schools if they choose not to go to Cleveland.<br /><br />Maybe the numbers work out, maybe Franklin and RB can contain all south end students, I just don't know.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16559418215005257282009-12-11T21:51:57.131-08:002009-12-11T21:51:57.131-08:00Well, first, let me say that unless Hale begins to...Well, first, let me say that unless Hale begins to offer self contained honors classes, a few more AP classes, and an orchestra, I 100% agree that it should be an option school. It's a comprehensive school, but not a traditional school. The problem is that if Hale became an option school the district would have to guarantee every north end kid a seat at Roosevelt, Ballard, or Ingraham and there just isn't enough space at those schools to accomodate them all. They need the additional capacity that Hale provides. So Hale can't be an option school.<br /><br />As for STEM, it will not be a comprehensive HS, but hopefully, it will turn out to be a highly desireable, excellent school for the south end. It should not matter whether STEM is a neighborhood or option school as long as it provides a high quality high school option to S/SE families, which hopefully it will.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33003118942051830102009-12-11T21:12:08.111-08:002009-12-11T21:12:08.111-08:00Adhoc,
STEM in Cleveland might turn out to be a go...Adhoc,<br />STEM in Cleveland might turn out to be a good program, but it's not comparable to Ingraham because Ingraham is a comprehensive cluster draw but Cleveland is now an "option" all-city draw, not a neighborhood school at all.<br /><br />I'd imagine that the SAP draws boundries that reflect this: ALL students in SE must be assigned to either Franklin or RBHS (and maybe Garfield, those north of I-90), because Cleveland is no in play: it's option-only<br /><br />To compare Cleveland to Ingraham, Ingraham would need to become an option school.<br /><br />Imagine if the District removed Ballard from the SAP and made it an all-cty draw option school. All students north of downtown would be assigned to Ingraham, Hale and Roosevelt (dang, I just realized that while I remembered the two WS schools in my last post, I forgot about Hale! D'oh!)<br /><br />Hmmm...so there IS an imbalance that is made WORSE by Cleveland's removal to option status: SE now only has TWO high schools as opposed to the northend's four...<br /><br />They should make Hale and option school - it's closest to being "non-traditional," it's already experienced with the "small-school" model...So Hale would be the north end's Cleveland Academiesseattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61099247549904577202009-12-11T20:53:10.757-08:002009-12-11T20:53:10.757-08:00Melissa,
According to the functional capacity anal...Melissa,<br />According to the functional capacity analysis conducted during the closures and shuffling earlier this year, Cleveland's capacity is 928.BLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18171184976280483050noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44463051747512312552009-12-11T19:17:59.689-08:002009-12-11T19:17:59.689-08:00I'm still mystified at what will happen at Cle...I'm still mystified at what will happen at Cleveland (the building). It's a brand new building that seats about 1400. I looked at the PowerPoint presentation about enrollment and it is certainly ambitious. They really think they'll have 400-500 9th and 10th grader by next fall enrolled in STEM? Well, maybe if the open houses are REALLY well-presented and they have some very good community/university groups lined up with commitments to the program. But that's an awful lot of parents to commit to an unknown when it is the last school before college. <br /><br />They also project, by 2012-2013, that they'll have 800 kids in the program. I find that hard to believe mainly because many of the kids that live in that area have not been exposed to this level of rigor and if they don't have the support at home, may opt out. So that means probably 500 of those kids will have to come from around the city. It will have to be some stellar program to get that acceptance in such a short time. I'm not sure it's realistic.<br /><br />But, in the end, I do always come back to capital issues. It is very sad to have a great building and have it so underenrolled (and on purpose). I can see underenrolling it a bit but by 400+ seats? <br /><br />I also have to wonder what it will mean to Rainier Beach. On the one hand, students who either don't think they can handle STEM or just plain aren't interested or just want a comprehensive high school will likely go to Rainier Beach (or continue going up to Ingraham or Hale as long as there are seats). Rainier Beach could maybe do slightly better because of a larger enrollment but is the district really going to support them as they are Cleveland? Very doubtful. <br /><br />One huge plus (and I mean this) is...Charlie. If he and his wife and his daughter agree to enroll her at Cleveland, Charlie will keep them honest. Charlie will be the squeaky wheel that keeping driving them to create this great program. He will likely help the parents really band together and, because of his knowledge of the district, can probably help the entire group to make sure the district does the best job possible. <br /><br />That said, this district has never been good at marketing.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67503588587611038962009-12-11T16:30:29.523-08:002009-12-11T16:30:29.523-08:00"There aren't any Excellent or Very Good ..."There aren't any Excellent or Very Good schools south of I-90, and there aren't any Poor schools north of the ship canal."<br /><br />Things are changing and they are changing fast Techymom. In the SE Cleveland has historically been a terrible school, but I think we will see STEM become an excellent school. And, just a couple of years ago Ingraham was considered a terrible school in North Seattle. It wasn't until the IB program came along that it started looking somewhat attractive.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44608188823443300452009-12-11T16:06:10.686-08:002009-12-11T16:06:10.686-08:00I should start a thread on high schools so everyon...I should start a thread on high schools so everyone can exchange info. West Seattle is in a new building, has a very supportive community (West Seattle is like its own little village, very nice). I think academically it's in the middle. It's interesting because I had the impression that many more SW/WS parents chose West Seattle over Sealth but now with Sealth's IB and a sort of newish building, it may become stronger. And that's to the good. I think many SW/West Seattle middle/high school parents are not happy with the new SAP because of the way it funnels kids to high schools. (Several of them testified at a Board meeting a couple of meetings back.) I've met a couple of PTSA presidents from WSHS - very committed people.<br /><br />There are, in fact, quite a few high school kids in the SE (Charlie would know the numbers right off hand). However, most of them go elsewhere. Because so many go elsewhere, it will be hard to gauge how the SAP is playing out for that area except for freshman. (I think the top contenders for where they go are Ingraham, Hale and Sealth, maybe Franklin. Again, I should ask Charlie.) It's interesting that kids all the way to the SE would go all the way north to the nearly the city line to go to high school but part of that is parents wanting their kid on a long bus ride so they aren't spending extra time fooling around at home.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32564742919396027272009-12-11T14:49:30.391-08:002009-12-11T14:49:30.391-08:00I remembered WS, mom:
"SW (west of I-5) has i...I remembered WS, mom:<br />"SW (west of I-5) has its two schools"<br /><br />I find it interesting that Techymom and I both wrote basically the same thing at the same time. I think all of us look at the district in a similar fashion, in these sectors (and why not? it makes sense from a neighborhood perspective: what are the closest schools children can attend?) and it seems many of us have similar perspectives about what should be in each of them, and accessible to each student.<br /><br />Both Techymom and I came up with relatively similar "ratings", and I'm sure this is common, and that our assessments are close to what people believe to be true, which is critical.<br /><br />While I applaud STEM, and the Cleveland building is well suited for it (new, new labs et al) it seems like it's removing a neighborhood school, throwing off the balance...Unless perceptions change about RB (and I wish they would) then Franklin is the only game in town down in SE.<br /><br />Are there fewer students in that quadrant?seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91724471930099074132009-12-11T14:39:32.865-08:002009-12-11T14:39:32.865-08:00Doh. I knew I was missing one.
I've heard ...Doh. I knew I was missing one. <br /><br />I've heard very little about WSH, other than that they had to change their schedule. What's their reputation like? Is the school considered OK like Franklin, or not-OK like RBHS?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27800564704468562662009-12-11T14:11:48.960-08:002009-12-11T14:11:48.960-08:00Hey kids, don't forget about West SEattle High...Hey kids, don't forget about West SEattle High.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5347028234168225422009-12-11T11:48:13.725-08:002009-12-11T11:48:13.725-08:00Geographically, the schools are mainly balanced:
N...Geographically, the schools are mainly balanced:<br />North of Ship Canal, south of, say, Jackson -<br />Ballard approximates location of Cleveland;<br />Ingraham > RB;<br />Roosevelt > Franklin;<br /><br />SW (west of I-5) has its two schools<br /><br />Central (south of Canal/north of Jackson) has Garfield<br /><br />The only "outliers" are Magnolia and Queen Anne, which are orphaned by the closure of QAHS in 1980s<br /><br />With the closure of Cleveland (and reconfiguration to STEM) there is now an inbalance: South end (east of I-5) has lost its "Ballard"<br /><br />There are many ways to consider a school "good," but the general feeling, in the media, at SPS, here...is that the north three are at least okay, Frankin is at least okay, RB is not okay, Cleveland was not okay...(no disrespect to those programs: I've heard many positive things about both, I'm talking about perceptions)<br /><br />So with Cleveland "closing" and becoming an option (like NOVA and Center), the Southend has lost a school the only remaining school that is perceived to be "okay" is Franklin, so how will this work out? What will happen to Cleveland draw-area students? Do they get to choose where they go? Will RB be closed and all non-option school students go to Franklin?<br /><br />It seems the task ahead, if we want to build a new option school (Cleveland) is to put a lot of effort into a) making RB bigger, so it has more offerings, and b) changing the perceptions about RB so people want to go there.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34300978670999202652009-12-11T11:43:39.689-08:002009-12-11T11:43:39.689-08:00If we say that Franklin compares to Hale, Sealth c...If we say that Franklin compares to Hale, Sealth compares to Ingrahm, and Garfield compares to Roosevelt, we still see disparities between north and south. The area north of the ship canal and the area south of I-90 are not that different in size, and they have the same number of high schools.<br /><br />Here's the breakdown (Reputation in parens)<br /><br />North of the ship canal<br />Hale (Good)<br />Ingraham (Good)<br />Ballard (Very Good)<br />Roosevelt (Excellent)<br /><br />South of I-90<br />RBHS (Poor)<br />Sealth (Good)<br />Cleveland (was Poor, now Unknown)<br />Franklin (Good)<br /><br />In between<br />Garfield (Excellent)<br />NOVA (Excellent for the right kid, Poor for others)<br />Center School (Excellent for the right kid, Good for others)<br /><br />There aren't any Excellent or Very Good schools south of I-90, and there aren't any Poor schools north of the ship canal. That's the inequity. The area between the ship canal and I-90 seems to have the best choices. The option schools are open to everyone, but the commute time will have an impact on who will sign up.<br /><br />STEM looks like it might be Very Good or Excellent in the future, but it's a big unknown. It's also not going to be a good fit for all kids, just like Center and NOVA aren't good fits for all kids.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22072089067140218602009-12-11T11:10:25.137-08:002009-12-11T11:10:25.137-08:00Also Solvey, when people talk about the "nort...Also Solvey, when people talk about the "north end" they typically refer to all schools north of the ship canal, which is a huge geographical area that includes all North, Northeast, and Northwest schools. When people refer to South Seattle schools they are generally only refering to S/SE Seattle and do not include QA/Magnolia or the Central area. SO your region is much smaller.<br /><br />I live in NE Seattle. The only nearby comprehensive HS that I have access to is Nathan Hale. I live 2 miles from Roosevelt, but I can't get in. My other choices are very far away from my home. If I were to send my son to Ballard it would be like you sending your daughter to Hale. It's far away. And, that's forgetting the new SAP which will limit my choices even further.<br /><br />I'm just trying to point out that we don't have it much better up here in the north than you do in the south.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79964212327248098642009-12-11T11:03:56.328-08:002009-12-11T11:03:56.328-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66165552654288053562009-12-11T10:55:32.816-08:002009-12-11T10:55:32.816-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84641325919389850082009-12-11T10:34:20.925-08:002009-12-11T10:34:20.925-08:00Solvay, I don't have any problem with South en...Solvay, I don't have any problem with South end families wanting access to high quality high schools - even the notion of that is absurd. I never said that, and I never would.<br /><br />Lack of access to Roosevelt and Garfield is not limited to the south end. You have no less access to those schools than I do and I live in the north. The only people who have access to Roosevelt and Garfield are those families that live within a mile or so of those schools, and the APP community. So it's certainly not a south end thing. You have to get over that.<br /><br />My point was that the South end does have some good choices, in my opinion. Sure, RBHS isn't great, but it sounds like STEM will be. And it sounds like Franklin is as good as some of the north end comprehensive high schools. And then there is NOVA and Center close by too. It just doesn't seem so dismal to me. <br /><br />If you want a Roosevelt or Garfield type HS in the south end then advocate for that, but it's not fair to use the south end has nothing and the north end gets everyting line. It's just not true.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91768289700340471602009-12-11T10:16:54.667-08:002009-12-11T10:16:54.667-08:00Adhoc
I don't pay a lot of attention to WASL r...Adhoc<br />I don't pay a lot of attention to WASL rates, etc. I go by what troops on the ground tell me, and the friends I have who have sent their kids to Franklin are not thrilled.<br /><br />Why do you have such a problem with southenders wanting a school that compares more to Garfield or Roosevelt? Don't we deserve it? The majority of people in Seattle want schools like Garfield and Roosevelt (Ballard too). That's obvious by the large wait lists, so why is it a problem that people in the southend want that too?<br /><br />Personally, I'd like my child in a school that offers her a wide range of quality classes in the academic disciplines and the arts. She's just 14! I don't want her to have to specialize quite yet. And, BTW, she IS very talented in all of the arts, so I'd like her to get tastes of them as well on the HS level. So for her, the best fit would be a quality comprehensive school that will help her find her strengths and get a clue about what she might want to major in once he goes to college.SolvayGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12709893209963350066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43883342123411027112009-12-11T10:06:15.609-08:002009-12-11T10:06:15.609-08:00Yes, I agree Ann. I don't live down south, but...Yes, I agree Ann. I don't live down south, but if I did I would never have consider Cleveland for my son with their high suspension rates, and low low test scores. Nor would I consider a STEM academy within that environment. I think you are right, in that the only chance STEM has at suceeding is to do what the district is doing, which is to close down Cleveland HS, and start the STEM school from scratch. The 7 period day and 4 years of math and science requirement will weed out the slackers. Further, making it a choice school will make it so only families who choose the school will go there, no more mandatory assignments/dumping of kids into the building.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79249735819620615182009-12-11T09:49:08.861-08:002009-12-11T09:49:08.861-08:00Solvay said " Anecdotally, an A in many of th...Solvay said " Anecdotally, an A in many of the Southend schools does not often compare with an A in other schools."<br /><br />Grade inflation does happen, and it is certainly a consideration. But WASL scores can't be inflated, and college bound rates don't lie.<br /><br />You listed Ingraham as being a much better school than Franklin, when in fact Ingraham's reading and writing WASL scores, even with their top rated IB program, are lower than Franklin's, and Ingraham's college bound rates are also lower.<br /><br />The drop out rate at Franklin is 19%, the same as it is for Ingraham.<br /><br />The suspention rate at Franklin is 8%, Hale's is 8.9%<br /><br />And Franklin has a lower expulsion rate than Hale, Ballard and Ingraham.<br /><br />I've never checked Franklin out because I live in the north, so I'm not speaking from personal experience. I can only base my opinion on what I can garner from statistics. To me it just doesn't look like Franklin is all that bad. I'd certainly check it out if I lived nearby, as I'd check out STEM, NOVA, and Center.<br /><br />It sounds to me like Roosevelt and Garfield are the only two schools that would really work for your child. What is it about those two schools that makes them so appealing to you? Is your child a gifted musician who would not be served well in a typical high school band/orchestra? Does your child need more AP classes than the average high school offers? If so which ones? What is it about Roosevelt and Garfield that make all other schools look grim in comparision to you?anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73548205585043578982009-12-11T09:43:41.632-08:002009-12-11T09:43:41.632-08:00"The district is trying to start a program th..."The district is trying to start a program that is just STEM (not an academy of STEM at Cleveland which would be a better idea and they could grow it from there if it was popular). Cleveland can seat something like 1400 students. It is a massive undertaking to believe that you can get 1,000 or even 800 kids to sign up for this program? Can the school exist long enough to get that kind of capacity in it? That's my concern.<br /><br />And maybe that might be something to advocate. Make STEM an academy within Cleveland to keep it small and simple and let it grow."<br /><br />I am only considering STEM because it is NOT a school within Cleveland as it exist today. It's the rigorous entry requirement that I am counting on to change the demographics to a group of students that are serious about learning. The fact that the current 10th and 11th graders have to agree to an extended day will weed out the other students that are causing the high suspension rates. At least that's my hope and I think it will be key to it's chances of succeeding.annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06891398273398141400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24224418202791844062009-12-11T09:35:58.221-08:002009-12-11T09:35:58.221-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16734243076982284512009-12-11T08:29:25.361-08:002009-12-11T08:29:25.361-08:00I found a reference for the QA/Magnolia going to F...I found a reference for the QA/Magnolia going to Franklin (from the district archives):<br /><br />"Fall 1981 saw a bulging enrollment of 1,850 students following the <br />closure of Queen Anne High School, as Franklin became the high <br />school destination for students from McClure and Blaine."<br /><br />Ballard was rebuilt by 1997.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.com