tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post5008354853530134618..comments2024-03-28T23:38:22.511-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Advanced Learning: Crumbling Faster and FasterMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger111125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83067731818408393102020-08-29T08:07:54.297-07:002020-08-29T08:07:54.297-07:00You can find a lot of useful information on this f...You can find a lot of useful information on this forum. I study law so I often need <a href="https://primeessay.org/writing-business-law-assignments.html" rel="nofollow">business law assignment</a>,such specialization is the most interesting for me now.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05778125089916547454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2559190045902088342015-10-12T03:37:45.078-07:002015-10-12T03:37:45.078-07:00The opportunity to get new learning experience mak...The opportunity to get new learning experience makes the life meaningful. I really like the article very well. Also, the way you have presented the article is extremely good. Thanks for sharing it!college paperhttp://www.buyessays.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11412795579504538922014-05-04T15:10:46.596-07:002014-05-04T15:10:46.596-07:00anon, the District goal should be described in a p...anon, the District goal should be described in a policy. In the absence of any policy it is fruitless to make conjecture on the District's goal.<br /><br />The evidence, such that there is, suggests that they have no goal with regard to advanced learners.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16981912078699241332014-05-04T13:01:36.604-07:002014-05-04T13:01:36.604-07:00You have 1) what is considered best practice and 2...You have 1) what is considered best practice and 2) what the district actually does. Sometimes they are the same, but sometimes the district is at odds with best practice or simply incapable of implementing best practice.<br /><br />If the goal of the district is to follow the law at the bare minimum level, whether they optimize the identification process or not, then it's anyone's guess as to the policy implications.<br /><br />What is the district's goal?<br /><br />anonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54071200666157854282014-05-04T11:22:44.391-07:002014-05-04T11:22:44.391-07:00Yes - the district could probably choose not to co...Yes - the district could probably choose not to consider any new data in the appeal process. Is the goal though to identify the students who <i>perform or show potential for performing at significantly advanced academic levels when compared with others of their age, experiences, or environments</i>? Or is the goal to identify a random sample of those qualified students - but not so many of them that they can't be served conveniently?Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7057382465325491762014-05-04T10:54:11.685-07:002014-05-04T10:54:11.685-07:00Many of the students DO NOT score high enough of t...<i>Many of the students DO NOT score high enough of the district-administered CogAT and are qualified through private testing.</i><br /><br />Only the district has this information, yes? The appeals process can be whatever the district decides and it could even choose to not recognize private tests. The law is pretty vague.<br /><br /><a href="http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=392-170-076" rel="nofollow"><br />WAC 392-170-076 Process for appeal</a><br /><br />happy readingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55575263932791649632014-05-04T10:47:13.074-07:002014-05-04T10:47:13.074-07:00Some history on IPP here:
Madrona Elementary Scho...Some history on IPP here:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=10551" rel="nofollow">Madrona Elementary School History</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10022.aspx" rel="nofollow">The Uncommonly Bright Child by Robinson</a><br /><br />happy readingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68811161159014118122014-05-04T10:42:18.826-07:002014-05-04T10:42:18.826-07:00Schoolmarm,
Individually administered intelligenc...Schoolmarm,<br /><br />Individually administered intelligence tests are generally understood to provide more accurate information than group ability tests - particularly for younger children and twice exceptional students. Because of this (and because state law requires an appeal process to be in place) the district allows families to present private IQ results (obtained at their own expense) and provides individual testing to students who qualify for the FRL program. A better question might be - should the district continue to require families to pay for private testing - or should it be provided free of charge to any family who requests it on appeal? <br /><br />While I realize that people are suspicious of private test results, it's hard for me to imagine that a professional could be bribed to provide false scores. Is that what you think happens? <br /><br />Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74166068741570273392014-05-04T06:14:35.595-07:002014-05-04T06:14:35.595-07:00Charlie,
I wonder what your policy would say abou...Charlie,<br /><br />I wonder what your policy would say about how eligibility is determined. There is a LOT of private testing that goes on to determine AP eligibility now. Many of the students DO NOT score high enough of the district-administered CogAT and are qualified through private testing. Would you continue to allow private testing, or say it must be based on the results of district-administered tests? Would you suggest that the district change the test being used? <br /><br />SchoolmarmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20757403542139754962014-05-04T02:13:24.345-07:002014-05-04T02:13:24.345-07:00I don't have the necessary expertise to addres...I don't have the necessary expertise to address sleeper's valid concerns in detail.<br /><br />Like the Board, I would only be able to set the frame and I would have to rely on the superintendent and the staff to fill it in.<br /><br />What could be done - with the available funding if it were not pissed away on testing - is different from what has been done historically.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27846414547305535252014-05-03T10:05:23.507-07:002014-05-03T10:05:23.507-07:00Does anyone know the history of why IPP was change...Does anyone know the history of why IPP was changed to APP?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82684461307804244222014-05-01T14:44:05.857-07:002014-05-01T14:44:05.857-07:00Because you said the focus was not on acceleration...Because you said the focus was not on acceleration, but instead on independent work. No standards, so no plan for moving faster through them in addition to depth. It sounds like nova, only for the younger grades. I don't think that's the best way to serve the majority of very gifted kids, though I think it is a way to very well serve some of them. I have heard you talk about it a lot before, so I feel I understand it somewhat, but I would love to hear more. My outlier kid was in a project based program billed like that for k- not a good fit. He wanted to have more more more, faster faster faster, in addition to depth,but doing it on his own was isolating. And I find there are some kids like him, though they are outliers even at app.<br /><br />Of course if the program had amazing teachers who could deftly weave acceleration with depth, it would be great. But you can't plan for a program to have only amazing teachers. Some of them will be mediocre, and what would a mediocre teacher do with that mandate? Spend a long time on projects, low direction for the kids.<br /><br />That sounds like a much better fit for self directed sort of autodidacts than necessarily very high IQ students. I agree that app, at least at Lincoln, should be allowing more students to go further ahead. It bothers me that it does not. I think if more people who only reluctantly leave their neighborhood school after it flatly refuses to educate their kids for years on end, even small, neutral accommodations, even though it could and really should, could be served there, app could be better. So I like part b of your plan. But I am not sure about part a. I do think it would better capture 2e kids, and I do wish we could better do that now, besides the mild/504/behavior problems app seems to do an especially good job of. But it would do it at a cost to too many other students, and I am not sure it has to be zero sum like that.<br /><br />SleeperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80100719911706706572014-05-01T13:08:14.454-07:002014-05-01T13:08:14.454-07:00I don't understand the presumption that indepe...I don't understand the presumption that independent study would not allow for acceleration. Where would anyone get that idea?<br /><br />One of the big problems with APP right now is that it is defined as "two grade levels ahead". When that is true, there is a hard ceiling imposed at two grade levels ahead. When that isn't true, which is often the case, there is little or no acceleration at all.<br /><br />Of course guided independent study would allow for acceleration. And, of course, the students would be taught. They would not just be released in the library to free roam.<br /><br />Before you jump to conclusions about what you think I mean, please give me the courtesy of at least framing your presumption as a question, rather than as a statement. Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46039956487135348342014-05-01T12:22:14.217-07:002014-05-01T12:22:14.217-07:00Mom1stGrader said . . .
@CCA - Yes, what school i...Mom1stGrader said . . .<br /><br />@CCA - Yes, what school is that? It sounds like it could work for many, many kids - especially since not all learn math and reading at the same rate. Our school is planning on adopting a school-wide walk-to-math for all grades next year. So, students eligible for upper grade math would go to that classroom - regardless of grade. My only concern is that they have a plan for upping the ceiling for advanced students - as your school seems to have done.<br /><br />@aghast - My son is now out of the "advanced" 1st grade math class as of this week and back to his primary teacher's class. She is an amazing teacher and is going to do curriculum planning just for him during the math block. He will start on Monday and do 3rd grade math.<br /><br />I am disappointed that the school gave the "advanced" 1st grade math students to the more mediocre teacher who has seniority. Plus, I learned yesterday that the "advanced" class was made up of kids who passed the final 1st grade assessment at 70%-90%. My son passed the 1st and 2nd grade assessments at 100%, and the early 3rd Grade assessment at 74%. So, he really should have been sent to a higher grade to take math, but they thought he was too young. :(<br /><br />Reading this thread, it looks like a LONG road ahead to advocate for my son's education. I've had a really disappointing experience with SPS this year and have learned that I have to advocate really hard for my son.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69192923442731360202014-05-01T07:31:34.030-07:002014-05-01T07:31:34.030-07:00CCA, care to share which school that is?
HIMSmomCCA, care to share which school that is?<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8341244871009213172014-05-01T05:13:05.891-07:002014-05-01T05:13:05.891-07:00There are schools that have very good ALO programs...There are schools that have very good ALO programs. Walk to math with a math block when the whole school has math at the same time. Kids move to the classroom where the level they're at is taught, Test assessments done several times each year, and kids can switch to diff levels when needed. Our school served kids from remedial to advanced calculus & differential equations When we were there the kids who were doing the most advanced math were 3rd &4th graders so they are probably doing even higher level math now. They were not doing extra math outside of school. School hired tutors for most advanced levels with PTA funds. Reading differentiation was done in classroom, classes had bookshelves set up grouped by levels and kids read books of the level they are at & discussed in groups with a class helper (parent, teacher in training, interns) under main teacher's directions. It can be done, but need principal and PTA and parent support. Schools did have a math commitee to set it up originally. Then there was a science committee to set up the science program. Arts committee for music dance drama visual. And the assistant principal started a robotics program with a teacher and a couple of parents a few yrs back. It has been very successful at several competitions. Unfortunately only has enough coaches for two teams so long waiting lists.<br />I think it depends a lot on the principal and assistant principal and teachers at the school being willing. And parents who have time & money to help. Which unfortunately not every school have. There is a lot of inequity in this district. <br /><br />CCA<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90490630008340215972014-04-30T23:18:37.067-07:002014-04-30T23:18:37.067-07:00If the principal and teachers were trained in and ...<i>If the principal and teachers were trained in and enthusiastic about gifted education, I'd trust them to cover the necessary material without rigidly following the CCSS</i><br /><br />Lots of ifs there. <br /><br />In the current SPS culture, I simply don't see it as a reality, nor do I see CCSS in and of themselves as holding back students or imposing rigidity. The CCSS for ELA are so broadly written and actually encourage increased text complexity (see Appendix A of CCSS). CCSS are not antithetical to gifted ed. CCSS are not the curriculum, but SPS is implementing them without defined curriculum. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.corestandards.org/assets/Appendix_A.pdf" rel="nofollow">CCSS on text complexity</a><br /><br />Students are being held back by a culture that does not value gifted ed and by a T&L department that is failing to strengthen the academic program for all students.<br /><br />ranterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70061941079757390382014-04-30T16:57:17.895-07:002014-04-30T16:57:17.895-07:00sleeper,
If the self-contained program meets chil...sleeper,<br /><br />If the self-contained program meets children at their level and is focused on independent work, it would allow for more radical acceleration for those students who need it. (As opposed to the current system which denies those kids access to meaningful work.)<br /><br />aghast,<br /><br />I think more families would choose Charlie's program than you think. If the principal and teachers were trained in and enthusiastic about gifted education, I'd trust them to cover the necessary material without rigidly following the CCSS. I would love that actually. Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79313056144199917102014-04-30T16:51:37.706-07:002014-04-30T16:51:37.706-07:00I second sleeper's concerns. As I have said ev...I second sleeper's concerns. As I have said every time Charlie's proposal arises, neither program would be a good fit for my kid--and I'm sure there are more kids like him out there. <br /><br />A gifted program that poorly serves kids who are both highly gifted and very advanced/accelerated? Seems like it defeats the purpose.<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17793859050497702912014-04-30T14:03:07.471-07:002014-04-30T14:03:07.471-07:00The difficulty I have always had with Charlie'...The difficulty I have always had with Charlie's plans is that I know a few profoundly gifted children. They learn very quickly and are in almost every case very advanced. They need both acceleration and access to each other. Neither of those programs would fit their needs- I would not place a very gifted child in a program that did not have a plan for acceleration, so would reluctantly probably choose the one scattered around the city, but then he profoundly gifted child would not have access to peers. I think Charlie's plan would much, much better serve moderately gifted kids, and probably more 2e gifted kids, in the small program, but it seems like such a loss for profoundly gifted kids that I can't get behind it.<br /><br />I still think more advanced learning options at neighborhood schools is he best way to shrink app down to a size that can allow for more individualized instruction. Nobody leaves a school that is working for them. But it has to come from the district. Parents are completely powerless to make this happen- we have tried. A lot.<br /><br />-sleeperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24108669394122069942014-04-30T08:14:52.592-07:002014-04-30T08:14:52.592-07:00To add to the conversation (and perhaps touch on s...To add to the conversation (and perhaps touch on some of what Charlie is suggesting for the type "a" service he envisions):<br /><br /><a href="http://educationnext.org/challenging-the-gifted/" rel="nofollow">Challenging the Gifted</a><br /><br />-aAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61571566114784030822014-04-30T07:40:11.391-07:002014-04-30T07:40:11.391-07:00Even though his school also uses Singapore Math, h...<i>Even though his school also uses Singapore Math, his teacher has actually told him that it is not ok for his parents to give more advanced work at home this because he shouldn't learn more than the rest of the class.</i> <br /><br />Very, very wrong. I would get my child out of that class ASAP.<br /><br />As per Charlie's idea: <i>I envision this as a small (about 500 students K-12) self-contained program working with little or no attention paid to the Standards or Grade Level Expectations.</i><br />Um...this is what's happening in some classrooms now...and it's horrible. They absolutely need to cover the standards and GLEs just as everyone else. There still needs to be some coherent curriculum. Students still need to be taught basic skills. My child just wants to learn stuff. Lots and lots of stuff. The idea that high cognitive ability means you don't need to be taught or don't need to cover the same general knowledge is mind boggling to me. Perhaps some segment of students are self directed prodigies...but that's a pretty small segment. <br /><br />The above ideas about students, 1) that you shouldn't work ahead at home (even if you really truly love it) and 2) that high cognitive ability means you don't need to be taught, come from a place of ignorance and bias. Both can be damaging to a student's learning.<br /><br />-aghastAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-92081821011098764952014-04-30T06:31:04.830-07:002014-04-30T06:31:04.830-07:00... continued
b) A service for high performing s...... continued<br /><br /><br />b) A service for high performing students without regard to their cognitive ability focused on supporting work beyond the Standards. In practice, I think this is where the District claims to be going with MTSS. This will be the Tier II advanced intervention available at every school. Because high performing students do not come in convenient 30-packs, it will mean that every elementary and middle school will provide some kind of small group instruction for these students. Full classes may be possible when the numbers work out serendipitously. In high school (and, in middle school in some cases) the service can be provided through placement - students will be placed in classes based on their abilities, not their age. So an incoming freshman may be placed in a junior Language Arts class if the placement is appropriate. The students will, of course, be eligible for high school credit for their work in middle school if it was high school level work. Students will qualify separately in each domain (reading, writing, math, science). Students will qualify for this service through standardized test scores and/or teacher confirmation of skills. There will be clear, objective, and uniform criteria for eligibility across the district. This is not the state grant supported HC service, so those rules (parent/guardian permission, appeals, etc.) will not apply and no additional testing or cognitive ability testing will be required. All qualified children will be automatically get the service. Because this is the MTSS Tier II advanced intervention, the costs will simply part of the cost of implementing MTSS. This service will focus on providing instruction that delves deeper into concepts, applies them in a broader range of contexts, and as a specfic mandate, has <b>no ceiling on acceleration</b>. The focus will be on supporting student work beyond the Standards and Grade Level Expectations. Across the district I expect this program will be huge. In a number of schools the majority of students will be getting this service. I believe that most families with advanced students will prefer this service to the HC program because it will give them what they want most: a no-ceiling program in their neighborhood school. The popular appeal of this service will keep the HC program small.<br /><br />c) Some kind of opportunity in every general education classroom for every student to be supported in work beyond Standards without meeting any eligibility criteria. This won't cost anything, but it will require a culture change in the district. A School Board Policy is the place to start that culture change.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20310164314980325202014-04-30T06:30:55.640-07:002014-04-30T06:30:55.640-07:00On 4/29/14 at 11:21 AM joe asked:
"So, Charl...On 4/29/14 at 11:21 AM joe asked:<br /><br />"<i>So, Charlie, if differentiation is impossible then every gifted kid needs to go to a self-contained school or self-contained classroom within a school to get a decent education. Is that what you are proposing?</i>"<br /><br />Here's what I am proposing:<br /><br />1) The Board sets a policy on Advanced Learning that clearly states who the service is for, the purpose of the service they will get, and why the service is needed. The Policy would direct the superintendent to develop procedures for identifying students and providing the service.<br /><br />2) I propose that the policy strongly suggest three types of students getting three types of service:<br /><br />a) A service for students with high cognitive ability (without regard to their academic achievement) focused on independent work - without any specific focus on acceleration, though, of course that will happen. In practice, I envision this as a small (about 500 students K-12) self-contained program working with little or no attention paid to the Standards or Grade Level Expectations. This program should not focus on any of the popular measures of success like test scores, pass rates, or how many years ahead the students are working. Think IPP. This will be the state HC program. There will be a lot of money available for this program because we will not be squandering our state grant money on testing as we do now and we can put it into the classroom instead. The money will go to small class sizes and non-standard instructional materials. The absence of popular measures and a culture that dismisses them should keep the program small.<br /><br />continued...<br />Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88630359338429253442014-04-29T23:35:29.073-07:002014-04-29T23:35:29.073-07:00The question about schools with disproportionate A...The question about schools with disproportionate APP enrollment gets examined every year. <br /><br />Shockingly! The disproportionate enrollment comes from the most over-crowded schools / the adjacent schools. It is not surprising to me that Hay is now on that list. Previously, Bryant, Wedgwood and View Ridge were very disproportionate and not surprisingly those three schools have severe capacity issues. There was also a big uptick in enrollment from Greenlake which is very convenient to Lincoln. <br /><br />The ONLY way over-crowded schools can try to manage class sizes is to encourage APP qualified students to move to APP. Just a few years ago, many schools worked hard to hold onto their APP qualified kids for a variety of reasons but that is just not the case any longer. kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.com