tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post5621180489313106279..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Advanced LearningMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger170125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85428691563398112492016-07-22T00:30:32.903-07:002016-07-22T00:30:32.903-07:00Good post....thanks for sharing.Do you need cash l...<br /><br /><br />Good post....thanks for sharing.Do you need cash loan against credit card?.Kindly see my blog <br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.techknowledge.in/after-school-activities/" rel="nofollow">After School Activities</a>Premahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01987921671788207020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13767728901364875022012-12-17T20:20:27.251-08:002012-12-17T20:20:27.251-08:00Reader -- you spoke of APP elementary, assuming it...Reader -- you spoke of APP elementary, assuming it was still at lowell unti you were corrected. But in your subsequent postings you continue to assume that APP elementary is all in one school (Lincoln) without any other programs and without low income kids in the school.. You and many others on this blog seem oblivious to the fact that Thurgood Marshall has an APP program too. The school is very diverse, has a high FRL population , has a large number of ELL students, and has a strong program for children on the autism spectrum. When you talk about APP schools not having to deal with the issues and challenges confronted by many Seattle schools, I am struck by the thought that you know nothing about Thurgood Marshall. Thurgood Marshall is certainly more diverse and more representative of the city than the neighborhood school my child left. <br />-- at that other APP school<br />--Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14881788683580284902012-12-17T17:24:52.593-08:002012-12-17T17:24:52.593-08:00I look at APP in some way as the canary of SPS coa...I look at APP in some way as the canary of SPS coal mine. Here's a group of kids who rightly should do well. Better than well. If our number of National Merit scholars is declining despite the increasing number of APP students, then I have to stop and ask what is going on? Is it because we've made getting in easier or is it because the district's attention to teaching/curricula is going downhill? Or is it both? <br /><br />How APP does matters not only because it provides kids the challenge and learning opportunity they need, but it's the canary. If our brightest kids are not doing well with the same course materials (delivered in an accelerated and compact fashion), then what does that say about our gen ed students. Some of you have been in SPS longer than my decade, so you can speak more. But I've never had a strong sense the district paid much attention to its teaching, what it's teaching, and how it's teaching. Except for the math text adoption, the district seems to get caught up in program definitions and task force, and day to day operation issues. Of course BEX, transportation, programs, teacher evals, standardized testings, capacity, school closures/openings are all important, but the actual pedagogy, how kids learn and acquire knowledge has become a subject rather than the practice. <br /><br />Another thing, many kids of every abilities enjoy in depth and robust classroom discussions. Kids just like adults enjoy being listened to, to express and have their ideas/opinions acknowledge, and to learn from one another through these engagements. We are losing more and more of the quality that makes learning a worthwhile endeavor. <br /><br />thankful parent Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9735706853785260152012-12-17T15:49:23.268-08:002012-12-17T15:49:23.268-08:00I would like to bring some historical perspective ...I would like to bring some historical perspective to this discussion. My big sister was in IPP (the predecessor to APP) beginning from its inception year in the late 70's, and I was also in the program, beginning in the early 80's. Both of us read at age 3, and when my big sister went to first grade at her neighborhood school in our middle class north Seattle neighborhood school, she came home crying because the teacher had told her to stop reading because the other kids needed to catch up. The teacher told my parents that she couldn't possibly differentiate curriculum for the advanced kids, it was too hard, so she was focusing on the kids who needed the most help. As you can imagine, my parents found a different school for her for second grade--she went to Leschi, where there was a gifted program. She was there for one year, then in third grade, IPP was born at Madrona and she entered the program.<br /><br />IPP was different from APP in that the point of IPP was to teach kids at whatever level they were at. So, if you read at the 4th grade level in 1st grade, they gave you a 4th grade reading book. Same for spelling or math. And they would give you the assignments at your own pace too. So if you finished all of your math problems in one day instead of one week, no worries, they'd just give you the next assignment then. If a certain concept took you longer, no worries, you just finished it at your own pace. If you were 3 grades ahead in math and 2 in reading, no problem, you could be at all different levels in all different subjects. The whole thing, top to bottom, was differentiated instruction, at least at the elementary school level. I don't remember so much differentiation in middle school, but we definitely got projects that were challenging and complex, and were reading texts like Beowulf in 6th grade.<br /><br />My sister describes the kids from her years in IPP as weirdos and misfits, the kinds of kids who just could NOT do well in a regular classroom for lots of reasons. Lots of them had behavior disorders, it appeared to her. She did not keep in touch with any of them after leaving the program after 8th grade to attend her neighborhood high school because she just didn't make friends with a lot of them, they were so odd. Fast forward 6 years to when I entered the program, and it looked very different. Now it was an elite thing to be in IPP and I don't recall any kids with behavior issues. I do remember a few rich kids who we thought were dumb. In hindsight, maybe they were the ones who paid for private testing and weren't really qualified? But most of the kids I went to school with were CRAZY smart. Like, I read at age 3 and I was not the smartest kid in class, nowhere near it.<br /><br />When I was in the program, there was roughly one classroom per grade level, maybe 1 1/2. We did have several split classrooms (I was in a 4/5 split class when I was in 5th grade). So, the program was significantly smaller than it is now. I believe the cutoff was top 1% rather then top 2% like it is now, but I could be wrong. In any case, we were not large enough to fill our own building, so cohousing was necessary. But I don't feel like the kids in the program got much out of being a building with a neighborhood program, since we rarely interacted with them.<br /><br />When I look at APP now, I don't see anything like the program I was in. Instead, it seems like what Spectrum was back then...I am blanking on what that program's name was, but it was self-contained and gave advanced work, but nothing like the differentiation that IPP offered. To me, that was the beauty of IPP, the differentiation. That disappeared when the program made the switch to APP when I was in 8th grade.<br /><br />What is the best way forward? I don't know, really. But I thought some historical perspective might help people think about ways that gifted ed might be run differently, given that it HAS been run differently in the past. Whether that other way is better or not is certainly up for debate.<br /><br />-IPP AlumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38733617410861597502012-12-17T10:22:45.052-08:002012-12-17T10:22:45.052-08:00Don't worry Public Education, it's clear f...Don't worry Public Education, it's clear for you it comes down to money, class, and race. (Though I am not sure what that really means. Is this supposed to reflect your values, your politics, your religion, etc. or is this a form of quickie ID that lines your assessment of people based on those 3 factors?) Anything else and it becomes "feeding the trolls" which really limits any kind of dicussion which would allow differences of opinions. Some of us don't see things so simply and find the discussion far more complicated, especially if we want to find solutions.<br /><br />thankful parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43801441865689518952012-12-17T07:46:00.674-08:002012-12-17T07:46:00.674-08:00As I said before, I hope you all are learning a le...As I said before, I hope you all are learning a lesson in feeding trolls. You have had a long discussion and not resolved anything.<br /><br />If you read the comments against APP spewed by a few over and over again here, they have nothing to do with APP. They just assume APP is wealthy (it isn't), that it gets more funding (it doesn't), that it isn't diverse (diversity is the same as the City of Seattle).<br /><br />Their anger is not about APP. APP is a scapegoat. Their anger is about money, class, and race.<br /><br />They are angry, but their rage is misdirected. They lash out not at the real problems (taxpayers who vote against education funding and families that don't support public education), but at what is nearby (families in our public schools).<br /><br />You aren't going to convince these people. They are angry at the wrong thing and their solutions are terrible. Discussion will not soothe them. The only way to make sure people like these don't get a chance to do more damage to our public schools than they already do is to outvote them.Public Educationnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25815889976708946212012-12-16T23:50:16.156-08:002012-12-16T23:50:16.156-08:00And if we are at all serious at getting the target...And if we are at all serious at getting the targeted groups whose numbers AL dept would like to see increase, it will mean not just better ID, but it needs to go all the way back to early childhood education to make sure that opportunity exists for them. Opportunity that continues on with formal schooling. At this point, I'm open to all comers who can make that happen. <br /><br />thankful parent<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44146325103587707412012-12-16T23:31:29.282-08:002012-12-16T23:31:29.282-08:00Such statements are designed to be inflammatory. H...Such statements are designed to be inflammatory. However, there are times when APP parents say things in blanketed fashion too. In the APP blog, when there was a real genuine ongoing discussion about problems with APP testing, the thread had to be shut down due to name calling. There are some people not happy with math placement per ability (and that will mean allowing non APP students in the classes). Others could care less or are for it. We are a mixed bag of diverse opinions. A call to examine APP shouldn't end up with circling of the wagons. Some of the things about APP and how kids test in are true. Same goes for parent's motivation to get kids into APP. None of the things parents do are against district's policies. They are doing things teachers, policy makers, education experts tell parents to do. Take interest and participate in your children's education. Be their advocate.<br /><br />But what I find fascinating and disturbing is when people like ZB look at APP with research re: testing, it's often met with silence to address the issue. Kids who do well in CogAT do well in part because their abilities have been allowed to be developed. These kids have parents to advocate for them, who love them enough to spend the money, effort, and time since they were born to get them to where they are today. It takes work to navigate SPS' byzantine system. These kids are fortunate. <br /><br />Perhaps we just need to acknowledge what people are saying. Sometimes I find people get so defensive that ears are closed and what you get is endless back and forth vitriol. <br /><br />thankful parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30986588264264970202012-12-16T22:05:09.761-08:002012-12-16T22:05:09.761-08:00Actually, trembs 384, the shameful history you rec...Actually, trembs 384, the shameful history you recount is how the idea of charter schools and school vouchers originated (and the main proponents of charters today still push for racial segregation in the form of schools like KIPP which target, segregate and regiment poor kids of color). APP, in contrast, as part of our public school system, is open to all students who need significantly advanced learning, regardless of gender, socioeconomic background or race. Does the district succeed in identifying all the kids who need to be in it? No. Rather than launching anonymous accusations at parents you’ve never met, how about coming up with a constructive suggestion for how our district can identify more kids of color who should be in advanced learning programs and encourage them to join? There's an important and constructive conversation that should be had about this. Unfortunately this thread hasn’t been the place for it. Some of the black families I know with gifted kids have been hesitant to send their kids to APP because they understandably don’t want them to be a minority in their school. So they often choose another option (usually parochial or private school) and the cycle continues. But no one I know, in APP or not, wants to return to the hateful era of the ‘50s and ‘60s of “separate but (un)equal.” suep.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17281578510716234624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10107341273536080592012-12-16T22:00:45.811-08:002012-12-16T22:00:45.811-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.suep.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17281578510716234624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57969274269321040202012-12-16T09:44:55.780-08:002012-12-16T09:44:55.780-08:00But that's the rub. Students in APP are NOT ge...<i>But that's the rub. Students in APP are NOT getting something better, just something different. </i><br /><br />Ahhhh. The old "separate, but equal" claim. That's what they said in my Georgia school too, back in the 60's. Black students weren't getting something worse, just separate. Notably, the "need" for "separate gifted" programs came just when segregation was outlawed for black students. People still feel the need for it. And it's still the same group.<br /><br />trembs 384 Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42451386324136947902012-12-15T21:16:01.296-08:002012-12-15T21:16:01.296-08:00Are MAP scores inflated, especially in the early g...Are MAP scores inflated, especially in the early grades? As in scores at APP level for first graders who cannot read? Every other kid scoring 98 in math? It seems to be misleading parents into considering APP at least at my NW school. <br />NW kidsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3533490048495325872012-12-15T21:10:54.588-08:002012-12-15T21:10:54.588-08:00"And please note that I'm not saying thes..."And please note that I'm not saying these kids are inherently more talented in music or anything else--it may just be, for many of them, that they've had more parent-provided training along the way."<br /><br />Interesting. Or, as Ross Perot would say, inersting.<br /><br />--enough alreadyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47295403074359514092012-12-15T15:22:08.918-08:002012-12-15T15:22:08.918-08:00With our growing APP population, hopefully SPS num...With our growing APP population, hopefully SPS number of National Merit scholars will go up again. The odds are in our favor for this. Bellevue's public gifted Interlake HS takes second after Lakeside for number of scholars. And the small (550 students) International School (6-12), another Bellevue school puts out impressive number of merit scholars and SAT/AP scores. Numbers don't tell everything, but trends do. <br /><br />watchful<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39877440968899594282012-12-15T14:11:51.213-08:002012-12-15T14:11:51.213-08:00But that's the rub. Students in APP are NOT ge...But that's the rub. Students in APP are NOT getting something better, just something different. It's the same crappy curriculum, just accellerated. Same teacher qualifications, despite the fact the district likes to suggest all APP teachers have experience/training working with gifted kids. Same crowded schools, but with APP kids much more likely to get screwed over when things reach the breaking point. The perception that APP kids get something special is inconsistent with reality. Sure, the music programs may be better in MS and HS compared to some--but not all--of the other schools, but I suspect it's because APP kids bring something extra, not that they get something extra. And please note that I'm not saying these kids are inherently more talented in music or anything else--it may just be, for many of them, that they've had more parent-provided training along the way. Since the APP pathway schools meet the kids where they are (a couple years ahead), this often results in higher level course availability--for non-APP kids in the school, too. <br /><br />The only thing I can see that APP kids "get" is a guaranteed pathway...and we can see how well that works out--a split several years ago, a last-minute move last year, potential denial of 6th grade middle school, potential eviction from Hamilto soon, etc. Do you really think any APP parents are banking on the pathway at this point? My only message to my elementary student is that we don't have any clue what his middle school options will be in a year and a half, so not to get his mind set on anything. <br /><br />HIMSmom<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74602781490509440402012-12-15T13:29:13.464-08:002012-12-15T13:29:13.464-08:00How do you want academics improved? We have more c...How do you want academics improved? We have more curricula on our plates than ever before. Some schools have more kids in classrooms than ever before. We have greater challenges in terms of poverty and special needs than ever before.<br /><br />I'm looking for specifics. What improvements exactly are called for? I'm curious to see if there is agreement on what "better" means. <br /><br />Than, where will the funding be found if additional funding is needed to make it happen?n askednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75853129821956033622012-12-15T12:43:22.958-08:002012-12-15T12:43:22.958-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.n askednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38523165372696265712012-12-15T11:09:33.221-08:002012-12-15T11:09:33.221-08:00I have to believe that if neighborhood schools off...I have to believe that if neighborhood schools offered a stronger curriculum for the general education of all students and more parents felt their neighborhood school was strong, there wouldn't be such animosity for APP. Part of the problem is the perception that someone is getting something better.<br /><br />My plea to Banda: Improve the academics for every school.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69169550735476546222012-12-15T09:09:35.293-08:002012-12-15T09:09:35.293-08:00APP is an important program that serves bout 2100 ...APP is an important program that serves bout 2100 kids in this district. <br /><br />APP parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90752836860774709132012-12-14T22:43:06.661-08:002012-12-14T22:43:06.661-08:00Thanks for sharing, north seattle mom. Not that th...Thanks for sharing, north seattle mom. Not that those with such negative feelings toward APP will ever change their tune, but it's good to help put a face on the real need that's out there. <br /><br />A number of individuals who comment on this blog seem to take issue with the active and vocal APP parent presence, seeing is as proof that we think our kids somehow deserve more than others. In reality, however, I think it's because our kids need something else--and we've realized over the years that the only way to get it is to push, push and push for it. If your kid is an outlier, the regular classrooms just won't cut it. <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36271116329291840242012-12-14T20:52:47.445-08:002012-12-14T20:52:47.445-08:00I wasn't going to jump into this fray but I ha...I wasn't going to jump into this fray but I had a very powerful conversation with a mom today about advanced learning. She was beyond distraught because she "didn't know what she would do" if her kid didn't get into APP. They are a "good" school with lots of differentiation. But her son is in a constant struggle with the teachers because he "won't do the stupid worksheets."<br /><br />The kid is bright, incredibly so. He is in first grade and can only have a conversation with the fifth graders. The mom was distraught because she once again got a note from the teacher about how her son is not learning anything in class. Shocking! The kid is not challenged or even minimally engaged. <br /><br />Advanced Learning serves a real need. Maybe a handful of kids get access that don't have a real need. I hear the same gripes about resource room support from the families that pay for tutoring because they don't qualify for the resource room.<br /><br />Oh well, no program or service is perfect. But there is a real need for Advanced Learning. There isn't a real need for advanced learners to be be divided up evenly into classrooms to some how make the class less burdensome. <br /><br />- north seattle mom Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32135242718359485992012-12-14T20:30:27.049-08:002012-12-14T20:30:27.049-08:00One barrier to APP that should be acknowledged in ...One barrier to APP that should be acknowledged in the discussions about diversity is that getting into APP and committing to going to an APP school take an extra effort on the part of parents: they have to sign up for the testing (in September for the next year!), perhaps they need to appeal their testing results in a tight deadline, the kids often have to be bused and go to school farther from home, they might be in separate schools from their siblings, etc. Each of these creates barriers for over-stressed parents or those who aren't "in the loop", whether they are single parents, working two jobs, recent immigrants or...<br /><br />For that reason, a number of years ago I helped fight to keep the Spectrum program at our neighborhood school Broadview Thomson, close to many immigrant communities and far away from Lowell. But the principal and some teachers saw it as "elitist" and have basically killed it.<br /><br />Mom of 2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19510983715632191202012-12-14T17:47:27.946-08:002012-12-14T17:47:27.946-08:00Dollars to doughnuts about half of them had qualif...<i>Dollars to doughnuts about half of them had qualified for elementary APP on private testing.<br /></i><br /><br />Hey Melissa!!!! Delete Helen's post! She is rampantly speculating on the evil private testing that does NOT happen. Nobody should get to say ANYTHING about private tests for APP because it is soooo NOT true. They all got in the old-fashioned way, by district test. <br /><br />You did say speculating about APP private testing was off limits, didn't you?<br /><br />-GooseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80271104399441135152012-12-14T17:33:28.088-08:002012-12-14T17:33:28.088-08:00Absolutely right, open ears. I can't speak to...Absolutely right, open ears. I can't speak to recruitment of minorities out of APP, but I watched private high schools "go after" the Rainier Scholars that my kid want to middle school with, and it was impressive. They WERE great, talented kids, who will go far!! I begrudge them nothing, and am more than happy that they ended up at Lakeside and U Prep (can't recall where others went). They were MORE than capable (by the end of 8th grade) of competing with anyone else at those schools, and had worked their tails off to get there. (So this is NOT an affirmative action thing. At least in terms of my child, his impression was these kids were smarter than he was AND they worked harder.) But yes, diversity (or lack of it) is a problem for many private schools, and kids who illustrate that they are ready, willing and able to do the work AND can help solve a school's diversity problems are highly sought after. Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33649802402740638392012-12-14T17:05:47.405-08:002012-12-14T17:05:47.405-08:00Helen and Amused are right.
You better believe th...Helen and Amused are right.<br /><br />You better believe that Lakeside and others actively recruit bright kids of color from APP/Spectrum/Rainier Scholars!<br /><br />I don't fault those families at all for choosing that opportunity, and I know several many APP kids that are very happy there, but APP sure gets whiter after fifth grade.<br /><br />Someone with access to those numbers could tell us exactly what the attrition is.<br /><br />open ears<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com