tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post5930373916009310305..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Institutional Racism, a primerMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47122751547646310362013-07-24T15:43:33.848-07:002013-07-24T15:43:33.848-07:00Truthie - just in case you don't know this alr...Truthie - just in case you don't know this already - you can refer him for testing yourself. If the results of the private testing qualify him for the program you're interested in, I would just turn them in with the request for testing. <br /><br />LynnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7512503064808888252013-07-24T14:40:45.652-07:002013-07-24T14:40:45.652-07:00LR and PO, we have also experienced building-level...LR and PO, we have also experienced building-level discrimination against our brown-skinned son. He doesn't walk to math and hasn't been referred for AL testing despite MAP scores and private IQ testing that show he is clearly qualified. When I had The Talk with my son, who is only seven, I used the example of the instructional assistant who hassled him on a daily basis because he "looked like trouble." It pained me to tell him to keep his head down and be respectful, no matter what. I'm not sure which private school accommodates our bright, curious, African American boys but the fact that this isn't occurring in Seattle Public Schools (personal anecdotes aside--AL, SPED and disciplinary demographic data)is clearly institutional racism.<br />TruthieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39102520624264071272013-07-21T16:35:58.681-07:002013-07-21T16:35:58.681-07:00I have read every comment here, and I am going to ...I have read every comment here, and I am going to go back to what I first said, it is odd to have a conversation about institutional racism in Seattle Public Schools without addressing the fact that so many people, mostly somewhat wealthy and often white, opt out of Seattle Public Schools (either by going private or moving out of Seattle). Already, Seattle has an unusually low participation rate in public schools, and any solution that does not address racism by including as many children as possible is going to create more of a problem with segregation not less.<br /><br />I think the focus entirely should be on increasing test scores, especially the dismal 10th grade math test scores of below 50% passing standards, which would help all the children in our public schools, disproportionately many of which are from families struggling with poverty. But, even after reading everything that has been said so far, I cannot understand how anyone thinks even more time talking about racism solely in Seattle Public Schools will do anything for racial issues in greater Seattle given how many people are not even in Seattle's public schools (and how people who have the most issues with racial and economic diversity are probably the first to leave).Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36220255670925004302013-07-19T16:25:50.233-07:002013-07-19T16:25:50.233-07:00PO, I have to say, your experience is not the only... PO, I have to say, your experience is not the only one like that. Even in a diverse classroom, our child's score was assumed to have been a fluke on the reading test (DRA?)and held back from achieving. We didn't catch on right away that ANY black child was not being offered the same opportunities to move ahead/walk to that the white kids and "model minorities' were being given. We made administration aware of things but we didn't stick around to find out what happened. We left SPS too.<br /><br />LRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18151495813529130172013-07-19T15:30:00.516-07:002013-07-19T15:30:00.516-07:00If you can't change what goes on in SPS or in ...If you can't change what goes on in SPS or in your own school, how are you going to change society? Took a quick peek at articles relating to Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis who aren't poor kids, just dead black middle class ones, and the commentators are celebrating the shootings with glee. Education may lessen the odd, but not foolproof. It's scary and really, really depressing right now.<br /><br />PO<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6075582717144312732013-07-19T14:21:48.755-07:002013-07-19T14:21:48.755-07:00What I think of as institutional racism in the edu...What I think of as institutional racism in the educational system is the lack of support given to families from lower income levels. One of the biggest predictors of educational success is income and the level of parent education. Like Charlie’s first analogy - we know some kids come to school with a ladder and others don’t. So it is our lack of providing a ladder to everyone that is the problem. Obviously, this goes beyond Seattle Public Schools. It would be easier to just blame SPS. <br /><br />We do not fund small class size. If we did, would we be having these discussions about classroom behavior? We do not provide intensive intervention in the early grades to bring kids up to the level of their better prepared classmates. We separate out those that came prepared and have the family support they need to succeed. Success can build on itself. But what do we do for the kids that are left behind? What do we do about the widening gap between the haves and have nots that takes place every summer? What kind of ongoing academic support do we provide for kids that are not getting this at home?<br />HIMS Parent of 8th graderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17598921782699275635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15728398817995677012013-07-19T13:39:06.414-07:002013-07-19T13:39:06.414-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65421394787941272822013-07-19T13:25:07.697-07:002013-07-19T13:25:07.697-07:00Sorry, my last post overlapped with yours, Melissa...Sorry, my last post overlapped with yours, Melissa. I'm all for deleting the AL discussion, which is off-topic. <br /><br />It's just so hard to bite your tongue (or hold your fingers?) sometimes when there are people who clearly don't seem to want to understand the needs of gifted children... Apologies for jumping in!<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6705545515777908712013-07-19T13:20:57.607-07:002013-07-19T13:20:57.607-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83766547290143698602013-07-19T13:18:25.871-07:002013-07-19T13:18:25.871-07:00Enough, I can only say there are hundreds of self-...Enough, I can only say there are hundreds of self-contained gifted programs throughout the US. You can find research supporting both. (If you have some new info, I'd appreciate a link.)<br /><br />BUT, I note that you didn't back up your claim that the majority of threads are about AL. Hmm.<br /><br />Lastly, this post is about institutional racism, not AL. All comments from here on out need to address that topic, not gifted education. Any that do speak of AL will be deleted.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19732964958952803792013-07-19T13:14:37.710-07:002013-07-19T13:14:37.710-07:00I like your last post Enough Already. But like an...I like your last post Enough Already. But like anything, reality hits in the classroom and without the AL designation, my child wouldn't get the harder stuff. We've been told by 2 teachers to NOT drill our child. We weren't, but they made the assumption we did. We did use a math book to supplement EDM, but so were other families and they didn't get called out for it. <br /><br />Which brings me to the minority experience in a predominantly white school. We are not of the right minority if you were to profile. That compounded the whole who gets to walk to what math class. Never mind the MAP and MSP scores. MAP scores for our kid was a fluke and inaccurate because one teacher just wasn't seeing it in class even though the spell list, writing, and reading were up there with the best of them. I suspect if our child was in different school with different demographics, this whole experience would be different.<br /><br />Our child won't be in SPS regardless of APP status. People sure like their stereotypes on both sides. The AL war just compunds it because our kid was suddenly a useful token in the whole AL segregation debate. We don't want to deal with some of those parents in APP or the local neighborhood school anymore. <br /><br />We look beyond and found a school that will meet our child's learning needs and our child will not stand out. Best of all, our child won't have TO PROVE it all the fricking time!<br /><br />POAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4075984550344398102013-07-19T13:06:34.530-07:002013-07-19T13:06:34.530-07:00On gifted children receiving an appropriate level ...On gifted children receiving an appropriate level of educational support, I would like to add that there may be research supporting this, but there is no law that supports this.there is law about special education services being supplied to students who qualify for special education. but as previous posters have pointed out there is no law that requires segregation by academic ability or for any other reason.children who are placed in self contained classrooms are placed there as a result of the decision made by their IEP team. There is good law to support the placement of children to receive special education services in inclusive environments regardless of their intellectual ability,as long as that child receive some educational benefit. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03542105149501352547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64421706239261061332013-07-19T12:25:08.550-07:002013-07-19T12:25:08.550-07:00Well said, enough already.Well said, enough already.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12262514571534446872013-07-19T12:09:36.931-07:002013-07-19T12:09:36.931-07:00That's "appropriate supports in the leas...That's "appropriate <i> supports</i> in the least restrictive environment" Oops.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64960827646972910092013-07-19T12:07:44.321-07:002013-07-19T12:07:44.321-07:00Research supports self-contained only when it is t...Research supports self-contained only when it is the least restrictive environment for the student. <br /><br />There is no research supporting the Spectrum program in Seattle. On the contrary, Spectrum is operating against best practices. The research does support grouping and other strategies within the general education environment for advanced students.<br /><br />There is no research supporting the the design and function of APP in Seattle. There is research to support the need for properly identified GIFTED children to receive a continuum of services, based on their needs (like a student on an IEP).<br /><br />The segregated programs in Seattle have NO research basis. The discussions underway in the district seem to be moving toward what research does support.<br /><br />Notice the linguistic shift on this thread in the past six months. APP used to be used as a synonym for gifted. At least people are now aware that that is the case in a much smaller percentage of students in that program. Most of the other students are best described as being well-prepared for the demands of schools.<br /><br />--enough already<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17669353089650471512013-07-19T12:06:31.492-07:002013-07-19T12:06:31.492-07:00"It dwarfs any other type of posting."
..."It dwarfs any other type of posting."<br /><br />Nope. The comments do (and I always say - want to start a fight here? Mention AL.) But posts? No. (I'll wait while you go check.)<br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26084501886773502692013-07-19T11:50:59.994-07:002013-07-19T11:50:59.994-07:00Growing up in L.A., part of my driver's traini...Growing up in L.A., part of my driver's training class at school was a section on "How to survive getting pulled over by the police." It wasn't exactly the Talk, but it was good advice.<br /><br />I was instructed to stay in the car, keep my hands on the wheel from the time I hear the sirens until the officer leaves, to answer questions calmly, concisely and politely, and to say nothing more than absolutely necessary. And that's what I do. Even now, when asked by the police for my registration and proof of insurance I say "They are in the glove box. I am reaching for them now." before reaching over to the glove box. I say "My license is in my pocket. I'm reaching for it now." before reaching into my pocket for my wallet. I'm aware of their concerns and I am scrupulously careful not to make them feel threatened at any time.<br /><br />It may seem over the top, but I have never had a police officer complain about it.<br /><br />That's a very narrow context. I was specifically instructed to demonstrate my non-threat status only to the police. I have since learned to do it in some other contexts.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49938607542195447472013-07-19T11:44:39.772-07:002013-07-19T11:44:39.772-07:00The age separation really bugs me. I think we'...The age separation really bugs me. I think we'd do a lot better with classrooms that had mixed age and consistent ability or level, rather than consistent age and mixed ability and level. TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75980171556062041272013-07-19T11:38:14.360-07:002013-07-19T11:38:14.360-07:00"It is segregation based on academic needs (w...<i>"It is segregation based on academic needs (whether SpEd, Spectrum, or APP), which is a legitimate rationale for segregation and one that is well-supported by research."</i><br /><br />Sorry Charlie. The law does not say segregate special education students based on academic need. It says provide specially-designed instruction and appropriates in the least restrictive environment. Poor rationale.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13188884168505393212013-07-19T11:32:02.017-07:002013-07-19T11:32:02.017-07:00Self-contained classroom do, in fact, represent se...Self-contained classroom do, in fact, represent segregation.<br /><br />It is segregation based on academic needs (whether SpEd, Spectrum, or APP), which is a legitimate rationale for segregation and one that is well-supported by research.<br /><br />We also segregate our classrooms by age. We don't mix students of different ages in our classrooms. That's another segregation that we accept because it delivers academic benefits.<br /><br />Segregation, by itself, is not evil.<br /><br />Segregation by race, faith, income, gender, or any other basis that does not serve a legitimate academic purpose, however, is wrong and is properly opposed.<br /><br />Don't get hung up on the word "segregation". Pay attention instead to how and why students are segregated. Some segregation is good, some is bad. I guess the trick is to learn to discriminate between them.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58935111317300065202013-07-19T10:19:59.926-07:002013-07-19T10:19:59.926-07:00Isn't the real problem that the school system ...Isn't the real problem that the school system doesn't challenge many students in a way that they achieve and actualize their potential? We supplemented heavily at home (lousy SPS math...), and lo and behold, math achievement rose. Reading was learned primarily at home. The idea that SPS is offering a banquet is somewhat laughable. <br /><br />I'd like to see the district focus on delivering coherent, sequential, quality curriculum as a means of increasing student achievement. Fix the math, improve reading instruction, and give science and social studies a standing equal to math and reading. <br /><br />All this harping on AL seems so misplaced. It's the general education system that needs shoring up. If families were happy with what was offered in their neighborhood school and they felt their children were appropriately challenged, would there be such a disdain or demand for separate AL programs? <br /><br />wake upAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6527765166311504312013-07-19T09:50:30.383-07:002013-07-19T09:50:30.383-07:00You have nothing to really base this on except his...<i>You have nothing to really base this on except his support of APP and Spectrum. </i><br /><br />Right. Oh so shocking and <i>unbelievable</i>. And the hundreds of posts supporting segregation. It dwarfs any other type of posting. Are there no other issues? If so, they are certainly not so interesting to anybody. Segregation is indeed a core value, as demonstrated by the sheer volume of postings supporting it. Why do YOU think it is so unbelievable? To my mind, that's what's shocking. Total lack of accountability, yet some sort of feigned interest. Isn't that what "institutional" racism is all about? It's so easy to say: "It's not me, it's the institutin." That's the dang topic we're on here.<br /><br />Move OnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67827669938144756422013-07-19T08:57:03.854-07:002013-07-19T08:57:03.854-07:00And Move On brings it back to APP which is NOT the...And Move On brings it back to APP which is NOT the topic here. Again, unbelievable. <br /><br />"The Charlie's of the world believe in segregation as a core value." <br /><br />You have nothing to really base this on except his support of APP and Spectrum. I'm sure you are going to now advocate against any kind of sorting for music, athletics and any other kind of sorting.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44286058341411060502013-07-19T07:48:14.493-07:002013-07-19T07:48:14.493-07:00NPR had an interesting piece on this morning about...NPR had an interesting piece on this morning about fighting racial bias and what works and what doesn't:<br /><br />http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/07/19/203306999/How-To-Fight-Racial-Bias-When-Its-Silent-And-Subtle<br /><br />Quote: Scientists agree there's little doubt that hate-filled racism is real, but a growing body of social science research suggests that racial disparities and other biased outcomes in the criminal justice system, in medicine and in professional settings can be explained by unconscious attitudes and stereotypes.<br /><br />Subtle biases are linked to police cadets being more likely to shoot unarmed black men than they are unarmed white men. (Some academics have also linked the research into unconscious bias to the Trayvon Martin case.)<br /><br /><br />HPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84359322128181658722013-07-19T07:28:39.999-07:002013-07-19T07:28:39.999-07:00I think the school and classroom rules emphasis on...<i>I think the school and classroom rules emphasis on this thread is a rather superficial and unhelpful approach to this topic. </i><br /><br />Right on, enough-already. The whole idea of "institutional racism" puts the responsibility of racism on somebody else. Therefore the conversation is vapid. And sort of slap on the back, feel good catharsism. It blames a nebulous "SPS" (the unnamed institution)for something that should be the responsibility of individuals. The Charlie's of the world believe in segregation as a core value. This is the racist belief, separate but equal. This undermines equity at every point. Some people should get advanced learning, if they've proved they deserve it. And, they must prove they need it by being non-black, and non-impoverished. Look at demographics and you see it. APP@Lincoln has 1 black student. 1!!! And, 3 FRL. A huge school. And all we can do is wonder about that? First he says he needs "separate but equal" for his child because his kid absolutely must be taught "at the frontiers of their knowledge". (None of the "frontier" pushing should be instigated by the child, even though that is the valuable skill for adults. As adults, we aren't spoon fed information at a "frontier". We don't sit around waiting for the next spoonful to expand our "frontier". Neither are kids. And, it doesn't sound very gifted either.) In the very next thread, he says "no, no, the only real important thing is the segregation. It's the <i>cohort</i> - non-black, non-poor, and off course - test taking smart." Instead of examining values and attitudes, we point to test scores as evidence of our non-racism. IQ scores. But all the measures are known to track income and race. Yet we are happy to use them as evidence that our kids need segregation: status quo maintainance, racism. In that case, we shouldn't be surprised when things don't change.<br /><br />-Move OnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com