tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post5969547302449063482..comments2024-03-18T16:51:10.406-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Gifted Education, Part OneMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger75125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90097535228917507322017-02-16T02:49:21.855-08:002017-02-16T02:49:21.855-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.not mc-tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61640785221643150272017-02-16T00:30:30.967-08:002017-02-16T00:30:30.967-08:00On the SBAC math test, 11.7% of Black/ African Ame...On the SBAC math test, 11.7% of Black/ African Americans 3 graders in Seattle scored Level 4 last year. 50% of White students scored Level 4. For reading it was 12% level 4 for blacks compared to 58% for whites.<br /><br />This difference in these scores is not caused by appeals. This difference in these numbers is not caused by a racist selection process. The difference in these numbers is not caused by an unfair application process. Everyone takes the SBAC.<br /><br />If you take any given class, you face exactly the same issue; far more white students than black students score Level 4. So when the teacher divides the students into different groups, there are a disproportionate number of white students in the high group and a disproportionate number of black students in the low group.<br /><br />If the district uses “local norms” for testing to lower the HCC entry criteria for under-performing schools, it’s going to again help a disproportionate number of white students. <br /><br />This leaves only two real ways to get proportionately more black students into the program: (1) the district can either lower the entry criteria specifically for black students; or (2) the district can significantly enrich the educational experience for the black students at the top of the range so they are more likely to qualify. Unfortunately, both 1 and 2 are pretty hard for the district to do in any significant way without getting sued. <br /><br />The district can’t eliminate HCC identification because it’s required by state law, but there are some things the district can do: (1) eliminate or redefine tracked services to eliminate perceived “segregation”; (2) shuffle program placement around so the problem is less grating; (3) make noise to obfuscate the real issue; and (4) create a multi-year committee to study the problem so it looks like something is being done. <br /><br />I believe the HCC community should be advocating hard for 2, 3 and 4.<br />unvarnishednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81746807328890615482017-02-15T23:52:37.413-08:002017-02-15T23:52:37.413-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13086376199126403582017-02-15T23:28:32.375-08:002017-02-15T23:28:32.375-08:00Megan: that post you commented on is just snark. I...Megan: that post you commented on is just snark. It's someone who is very-anti-HCC just trying to call us all whiners. Not to argue your (sincere) point though.SusanHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35547459756530815932017-02-15T23:09:13.077-08:002017-02-15T23:09:13.077-08:00I just want to correct something that was said abo...I just want to correct something that was said above:<br /><br /><i>My kid just isn't getting enough. I have every foreign language opportunity, every music and art opportunity, science far beyond others, math to nearly an undergraduate degree level, running start, and ONLY 5 high school choices. But it isn't enough.</i><br /><br />You know, this just isn't true. My kids aren't in high-school yet, so I don't know how that will shake out. But I can tell you that in elementary school the parents of AL kids must make decisions about what they are willing to sacrifice for AL. For example, language immersion schools do exist, but they do not offer AL services in those schools. The Access program (for special ed support) exists, but not in the HCC school. Parents must choose between these things and AL services. Right now, in HCC/Cascadia, students are well below state mandated gym hours, and behind many elementaries in music education, due to space constraints. Again, parents have to choose whether the benefits of AL are worth the things you give up leaving your neighborhood school.<br /><br />I'm not saying any of this to complain. Every school in the district is having to make really hard choices about what they can offer, what they can fund locally, what they prioritize. But, I do think it is really important to understand that the AL programs aren't BETTER across the board. AL kids aren't automatically given more services (lowest funding per capita in the district!). <br /><br />Maybe its time to call our legislators (again) and demand fully funded schools so that every school can offer music classes and a full time counselor.muhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07841682595015012741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71759103595216245392017-02-15T19:22:03.183-08:002017-02-15T19:22:03.183-08:00SPS should stop capping the upper limit of what ch...SPS should stop capping the upper limit of what children are allowed to learn. For all children. In every school. Period. There should be no upper limit to what children are allowed to learn in school. If they are going to use MTSS it needs to contain a plan for what to do if the student needs access to harder work. All children should be provided to access to harder work if they need it. All children. Not busy work. Re-teaching only when the child needs re-teaching. All schools should have an actual plan that they actually implement for what to do with children who need access to more advanced work. Period. All children. Every child. They're freaking schools. Teach the darn kids. Stop refusing to teach our kids. Stop capping the upper limit of what children are allowed to learn. For all children. In every school. Start today. Start immediately. Children would flood back into the public school system if it stopped artificially capping the upper limit of what they're allowed to learn. For shame, SPS, for shame.Apple Pienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52877961288159842772017-02-15T18:41:40.168-08:002017-02-15T18:41:40.168-08:00@Another Horse
I don't personally know anyone...@Another Horse<br /><br />I don't personally know anyone whose kid was reading Harry Potter in kindergarten. In a city with 52,000 school kids, I'm sure there are a few. I know plenty of people whose kids were reading the books in 2nd and 3rd grade. And of course I want all the other kids to have the same opportunities as mine. If kids are reading Harry Potter, they should have access to books at that reading level. All kids should have access to books at the reading level they're reading books at. That is exactly what I'm urging. That's why HCC is critical for some kids. Do you know what some SPS 2nd and 3rd grade classrooms provide kids to read? Berenstain Bear books. Wayside School is Falling Down. Magic Tree House. <br /><br />Giving kids access to books at their reading level is NOT special treatment. It is what schools should be doing for all children. Why would a school system work so hard to keep kids access to reading material at the level they're reading at? Why do so many people confuse children's reading levels with their value as human beings? A kid's reading level does not affect his or her value as a human being. It simply affects what books they should have access to. <br /><br />SPS needs to stop deciding what reading level children are at by looking at their age. They should assess the kids' freaking reading levels and then give them access to stuff to read at that level. This should be done for all children in their care. And it should be done ASAP. For all children. At every school. Immediately. <br /><br />I don't know why you think the HCC program is so wonderful. My kid got suckerpunched in the head there today for looking at a classmate wrong. It's not some kind of Shangri-La.Silly Horsebeaternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77302974389374682622017-02-15T18:10:06.201-08:002017-02-15T18:10:06.201-08:00Anonymous Anonymous said...
Gifted Education, Part...Anonymous Anonymous said...<br />Gifted Education, Part 2? I think this thread has run its course.<br /><br />and that is just why you are posting lies right?<br /><br />yeah. well said simon.not mc-tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77441619221057470682017-02-15T18:09:11.084-08:002017-02-15T18:09:11.084-08:00@ Another Horse and FWIW,
I have no information ...@ Another Horse and FWIW, <br /><br />I have no information on the demographics of the Seattle private school population. That information may exist. However, I have never looked for it, as I don't believe it adds to the conversation.<br /><br />My background is in system engineering and capacity managment. As such, I try to do the silliest of things in our post-truth world and insert basic facts into capacity related conversations. And unfortunately for all of us, those both pro and against various advanced learning solutions, capacity issues are a big piece of this puzzle. <br /><br />Self-contained HCC may or may not be the best answer for advanced learning for a large urban public school system like Seattle. However, SPS is chronically short on funds and capacity. The simple fact that the self contained model is both cheap and capacity efficient is a PART of the conversation, not the entire conversation. Any solution based on a different model will need to contend with fact that other solutions will require both more capacity and more money. <br /><br />My personal opinion is that we would all benefit from a variety of services. There have been a variety of very successful programs over the years, like Maple elementary' program, TTMinors program. However, they have all suffered from a lack of support and focus or any effort to bring them to scale. I have long admired the Everett miracle that has been produced with sustained focus and great metrics. <br />kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86298412760769978422017-02-15T18:05:37.331-08:002017-02-15T18:05:37.331-08:00"it robs us of the opportunity to show we'..."it robs us of the opportunity to show we're not racists." i don't need such an opportunity, but they claim that is what i believe. seems clear to me but if you don't think that was a trolling post... your blog. not mc-tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1571132194511893912017-02-15T18:05:04.803-08:002017-02-15T18:05:04.803-08:00There are two separate issues:
1. Equity in Advan...There are two separate issues:<br /><br />1. Equity in Advanced Learning so that its demographics reflect the district.<br /><br />2. The absolute and legitimate need for a HiCap program per se for kids who are identified as such, a program based on best practices following the abundant scientific research in the field.<br /><br />These are not mutually exclusive issues even slightly. However, the equity discussion is too often used as a proxy for destroying the HCC program. The HCC program and Advanced Learning in general should be greatly expanded, not destroyed. Addressing equity should be part of that expansion. Title I and Title II funding could be used under ESSA to do universal HiCap identification in grades 2 and 5, for instance. (I say "identification" rather than testing on purpose . . .)<br /><br />Anyway, I also think the hostility to advanced learning generally and to HCC specifically is rooted in a kind of anti-intellectualism or anti-science attitude that is all too pervasive in society right now. It's not like HiCap/gifted education is some mystical, arcane area of knowledge. It's extremely well studied with a great deal of scholarship in education science, psychology, child development, etc., with first-hand data available from all kinds of gifted programs and projects throughout the US (we even have the Robinson Center right here in Seattle), and in states like Nevada you actually need an endorsement to even teach HiCap. To me, it's a bit like climate change denial: a substitution of ideology for science ("HiCap education is elitist"), and an unwarranted universalization of one's own experience ("how can there be gifted kids when I've never encountered any").<br /><br />-SimonSimonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3654963574296036222017-02-15T18:04:15.867-08:002017-02-15T18:04:15.867-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14123200907447507472017-02-15T17:49:41.196-08:002017-02-15T17:49:41.196-08:00Yes, it should be clear that while Rainier Scholar...Yes, it should be clear that while Rainier Scholars does look for good students and specifically asks about whether a student is in a gifted program, it does not appear to be a program for gifted students. At all.<br /><br />No Caps hits on what I am going towards which is that there are some who seem less concerned about who isn't being served in HCC than it being self-contained. I find that troubling.<br /><br />I didn't see Another Horse call anyone a racist but yes, that person has made their point. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5062535810445074152017-02-15T17:34:31.519-08:002017-02-15T17:34:31.519-08:00mw, can you say that another horse's post adds...<br />mw, can you say that another horse's post adds anything to this thread? all i see is lie, after lie, after lie. and calling hc advocates racist really should not be allowed, right? it is simply a troll post. <br /><br /> not mc-tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60074148913142599582017-02-15T17:12:00.139-08:002017-02-15T17:12:00.139-08:00"The problem is that SPS is currently ignorin...<br /><br />"The problem is that SPS is currently ignoring the needs of the students that Rainier Scholars is left to serve." no again rs is not a gifted program. it is just the opposite. drill and kill which would kill a hc kid. and fwiw i am at a loss are you saying you are for ability grouping? that effectively is what rs is. it just happens after school. you aren't going to get into rs if you don't meet certain thresholds on achievement. and you could be truly gifted and not get in if you don't seem to have enough grit and family commitment.<br /><br />but no you aren't advocating for more hcc kids (more black students) you are advocating for less or no hcc at all, right. don't confuse yourself. you have posted that white kids should have a higher iq to get in than black kids right. that is also why you put forward the equity team (even if you can't prove the inequality) with racist ideas like that?!?! no matter. just keep deluding yourself. and a sincere thank you for continually using the same moniker. unlike currently another horse's blather post. same as yours factual incorrect with name calling and strawman arguments. easy to say who they are based on the repetition though. but we are left believing their is more than one deluded soul out there as bad as they are. <br /><br />no caps<br /> <br /><br /> not mc trollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38921230709091318432017-02-15T16:03:33.556-08:002017-02-15T16:03:33.556-08:00Another Horse, you said:
"I have every forei...Another Horse, you said:<br /><br />"I have every foreign language opportunity, every music and art opportunity, science far beyond others, math to nearly an undergraduate degree level, running start, and ONLY 5 high school choices."<br /><br />Except for the number of high schools (and every student has a choice of at least 3), every student can take foreign language (including AP) and science and math and Running Start. I can prove that statement; can you prove yours?<br /><br />As for music and art, it does vary from high school to high school but they all offer music and arts. All of them. <br /><br />As well, RS only takes kids of color and I'm sure you could ask them about stats on where their students go to school. Their list of schools includes Lakeside, Bush, etc.<br /><br />You can be snarky but you need to be truthful.<br /><br />FWIW, I have asked you before to make new points or points pertinent to the thread because yes, you are repetitious and yes, it is my blog.<br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90678167617168420952017-02-15T15:31:57.217-08:002017-02-15T15:31:57.217-08:00And wow. So awesome we also have Kellie tooting o...And wow. So awesome we also have Kellie tooting our horn too. She's so smart. We all know for a FACT - that the dumber than average white kids are the ones going to private school. That's why it's really completely fine and great - for the HCC program to be nearly ALL White and Asian, even if our public schools are minority white. That's because we all know it - we're the SMART WHITE kids in HCC. And, those private school WHITE kids are the less than smart WHITE kids. None of those private school WHITE kids - would or could be in HCC! So, it all works out fair and square. We're not racists even though it appears that we are. <br /><br />I'm sure Kellie has data on private school demographics proving that the private schools are full of dull-normal white kids and super smart black kids. No-caps-mct also pointed out that the smart, well coached, well enriched RS black kids are going private. When they go private (and there tons of them) it robs us of the opportunity to show we're not racists. And, I know he has the demographics showing tons and tons of black kids are in private schools. Because we all know this too - private schools are chocked full of HCC qualified minority students. Drive by any one of those schools - you will spy it with your own eyes.<br /><br />If you don't get into the wonderful, HCC program. It's so simple - you go to private school. There's not a single smart white kid in private that I know in private school. It must be true.<br /><br />And, so big deal - our best and brightest HCC students don't do so well when it counts - like NMFS. That National Merit stuff is for the birds. We aren't test takers in HCC - we're just smart. We all know that our kids really and truly are the best and brightest even when that 1 single test doesn't show it. There's a simple answer for that too - HCC hasn't given us nearly enough! We have to let other kids in our honors classes - making them less honorific. I mean, if other kids aren't working hard to prove they deserve honors - it totally destroys my kids abilities.<br /><br />Another HorseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52540939506813282262017-02-15T15:19:12.770-08:002017-02-15T15:19:12.770-08:00Who are the students who are systematically denied...Who are the students who are systematically denied access to HCC? If it's those whose reading and math skills are below the 95th percentile, let's change that. Let's drop the achievement score hurdle from the identification process and screen every student in kindergarten and second grade with the CogAT.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51006305414595090162017-02-15T14:51:41.571-08:002017-02-15T14:51:41.571-08:00z,
The problem is that SPS is currently ignoring ...z,<br /><br />The problem is that SPS is currently ignoring the needs of the students that Rainier Scholars is left to serve.<br /><br />nc's post speaks for itself. It was full of inaccuracies that minimized the scope of the program and who it serves. Again, defend it for your own reasons.<br /><br />My goal is to increase the access to advanced learning for the students who are systematically denied access in SPS. The demographics of identified HC say it all.<br />Any search on this blog would attest that I have supported a continuum of services for HC and groupings to advance challenge and achievement, include walk-to-math. I am all about "growth not proficiency" which has been my MO since I started teaching.<br /><br />Doing a Kellyanne by basically calling me a hater is not only untrue but ridiculous.<br /><br />As a parent of students who are benefitting from the state law, good for you. There are many, many more in this district who aren't. That is who I am talking about. I have been an advocate and actual teacher who has contributed to high achievement for many years. I am a far, far cry from the cult of mediocrity and am the opposite of one-size-fits all in word and action. I don't need to prove it to you. The parents of my students know.<br /><br />I summarized the Rainier Scholars vision statement "Our vision is a legacy of successful and inspiring leaders" as meaning excellence, but they said much better in their own words.<br /><br />FWIW<br /><br />p.s. Beating the dead horse has gotten results. It work--as anyone working for change knows. The public is waking up. You can always skip my posts if you don't like what I say. ItsYourBlog, that wasn't my quote; it is from the Rainier Scholars website.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17357069067535041362017-02-15T14:47:27.422-08:002017-02-15T14:47:27.422-08:00Just keep in mind that the ed reformers who are pu...Just keep in mind that the ed reformers who are pushing this attack on advanced learning (and duping people like SEE into going along with them) also have the exact same approach to special education. They don't think those special needs exist, they want to warehouse those kids in general ed classes, and they want to repeal IDEA and all the other laws that protect sped kids. Remember how Betsy DeVos "forgot" about IDEA and then removed it from the USDOE website?<br /><br />Teaching sped kids cuts into charters' profit margins. It means higher taxes to pay for schools. It makes it harder for companies to sell "personalized learning" to districts like SPS that are eager to embrace it (another thing NOBODY is paying attention to, aside from Melissa, certainly not our do-nothing school board). Same is true with advanced learners. The ed reformers want it gone and found a way to get liberals to help them do it.<br /><br />The scariest thing is watching all these smart people in Seattle totally lose their heads and help people like DeVos gut schools. You don't know what you're doing and as a result children across this district are going to get screwed. Oh, and the kids of color are going to get the worst of it.<br /><br />Stop DeVosAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46979368986051218562017-02-15T14:25:57.870-08:002017-02-15T14:25:57.870-08:00My kid just isn't getting enough. I have ever...My kid just isn't getting enough. I have every foreign language opportunity, every music and art opportunity, science far beyond others, math to nearly an undergraduate degree level, running start, and ONLY 5 high school choices. But it isn't enough. My kid was reading Harry Potter in kindergarten and is way more inquisitive - how smart does he have to be to prove it? And now, they want other kids to have the same opportunities as mine. Can you believe that? It's so unfair. My kid is the BEST and the BRIGHTEST - but he can't get more than others. It's downright criminal. How will we ever maintain the advantage of being smarter if others are permitted to get smarter too? Don't we want to have make sure that smart kids STAY smart? How will we run the country if we don't know who is smart? I'm really glad we have Melissa on our side.<br /><br />Another HorseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66352756858941698482017-02-15T14:25:12.436-08:002017-02-15T14:25:12.436-08:00"Students of color account for two-thirds of ..."Students of color account for two-thirds of all students in Seattle Public Schools. Yet, by high school they make up just 10 percent of the students in the district's advanced learning programs"<br /><br />Wow - that has got to be FWIW posting under the influence. I would entreat Melissa to remove FWIW from the posts. The tactic of repetitive, redundant posts riddled with lies is a classic Troll tactic. Trolls repeatedly post lies as an advertising tactic - the lies can be easily discredited but even discussing them gives them a certain credence that is undeserved.<br /><br />-ItsYourBlogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-657048318428584302017-02-15T13:46:58.099-08:002017-02-15T13:46:58.099-08:00You seem to enjoy beating a dead horse.
Thanks fo...<i>You seem to enjoy beating a dead horse.</i><br /><br />Thanks for the literal LOL Melissa.<br /><br />That's what's so painful about FWIW comments. They seem to keep pulling out the same dead horse arguments over and over again, long after they have been refuted and beat to death in a painfully lingering manner.<br /><br />I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just tiring to hear it over and over and over. And over.<br /><br />And over.<br />znoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91997041815360387152017-02-15T13:38:32.572-08:002017-02-15T13:38:32.572-08:00FWIW, you're so full of crap it's not even...FWIW, you're so full of crap it's not even funny. Do you have these kinds of arguments with people in person?<br /><br />"Stop trying to put down others to protect your own little bubble, nc. It's especially grating when you misrepresent and minimize an honorable program that has done remarkable work."<br /><br />nocaps and yourself disagreed on nuances of the RS program descriptive language, but in no way does his/her post misrepresent or minimize the program. His/her post is complimentary in every way. It may be hard to digest, and frankly I ended up reading it 3 times, but it seems like you have so much hatred inside yourself that you can't even understand when your "opponent" is on your side.<br /><br />IMO, if their program was only about, to use your own words, "moving the dial of the family SES a notch", that would still be a great program. The word "excellence" is soft, squishy, vastly overused, and frankly meaningless on its own. It <i>should</i> be the goal of every district, program, school, principal and teacher, but how many times have we heard that word used in SPS for naught? All. The. Effing. Time! So if you want to say that using (or not using) that word is some kind of golden standard, then you are flat out wrong. Words are just words without results.<br /><br />So what are their results? Overall, pretty awesome, right?<br /><br />About 40% of their students move into APP/Spectrum/Challenge/Discovery/AP/Honors in SPS.<br />About 60% move into non-SPS schools.<br /><br />But wait. How many move into your beloved everyone-forceably-mixed-together-in-perfectly-racial-balance-regardless-of-academic-sense classes and programs in SPS? Looks like approximately zero. "Challenge/Discovery" programs are obviously muddy, but they're negligible compared with the rest in any case. Apparently Rainier Scholars have their own hopes and dreams, and have moved beyond yours. They are the ones who are taking charge of their own lives, working hard to get ahead, moving themselves and their families forward. Good for them, huge applause! <br /><br />There is no better equalizer than supporting the education of kids who need support and are willing to take advantage of it. Most of the other stuff is just an exercise in futility.znoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67379274121716780382017-02-15T13:37:58.645-08:002017-02-15T13:37:58.645-08:00ALO, you nailed it with that last sentence. ALOs a...ALO, you nailed it with that last sentence. ALOs are a joke and schools don't care.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.com