tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post7146216845157582566..comments2024-03-18T16:51:10.406-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Why Families Go from Public to PrivateMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20310076311164234992007-04-23T12:56:00.000-07:002007-04-23T12:56:00.000-07:00If you don't like AS1, don't send your kids there....If you don't like AS1, don't send your kids there.<BR/><BR/>As it is, families do choose to send their kids there, and the majority of parents of children who are there are very well educated. The parents care very deeply about the academic success of their children, and many are very heavily involved with the school (much more than in the typical elementary or middle school, or so I am told).<BR/><BR/>However, these parents also realize that overemphasizing standardized testing gets in the way of actual learning; hence, the high opt-out rate on the WASL. If parents thought their kids were being shortchanged academically, they would be opting out of AS1.<BR/><BR/>They also care deeply that their children learn how to think for themselves and learn responsibility, and the only way that this can happen is for the children to be given the opportunity to think for themselves, to take responsibility, and to make mistakes in an environment where a mistake isn't a disaster. This is the environment that AS1 provides.<BR/><BR/>"majority of middle schoolers with piercings and goth looking hair styles," -- maybe, though I haven't done a census. However, a hair style or a piercing does not constitute bad behavior. As a parent, I have never once had a student be discourteous to me. My wife and I have seen consistently good behavior from the students, whether in the classroom, on the playground, or on field trips.<BR/><BR/>Underlying much of the criticism of AS1 seems to be the idea that schools should suppress anything countercultural or that schools exist to train children to conformity. For those who feel this way, AS1 is definitely not the right place for you.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120444973792909383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26691155396314675242007-04-23T11:28:00.000-07:002007-04-23T11:28:00.000-07:00Love it.Love it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4212415298421226882007-04-22T18:49:00.000-07:002007-04-22T18:49:00.000-07:00I wonder if the folks at Summit wouldn't like to s...I wonder if the folks at Summit wouldn't like to see their school move to a more central location.<BR/><BR/>I'm thinking of Lincoln. It is an ideal choice for an all-city draw thanks to its central location and great transportation access by I-5 or 99.<BR/><BR/>Of course Summit with an enrollment of 600 couldn't begin to fill Lincoln (capacity 1600), but perhaps they would be willing to share the space with the APP grades 4-8. The two programs could remain totally separate or they could share resources, classes and activities as much as they like.<BR/><BR/>Would this be acceptable to the Summit community?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13208308745646779812007-04-20T20:57:00.000-07:002007-04-20T20:57:00.000-07:00I have no problem with alternative schools in gene...I have no problem with alternative schools in general, but, shouldn't they be expected to follow state stadards? How can a group of children "collectively decide" that they don't want to take math? Is that OK with the district, or does it slip under the radar, as they opt out of the WASL? I know it is your legal right to opt out of the WASL, but, I wonder if AS1 is hiding a lack of academics. My question is...is it fair to the children? Children who at 3rd grade decided they don't want to take math? Are they mature enough to make these types of very serious decisions? And how about that grafitti? What does that teach the kids? It's OK to trash public property if its art. How is that different from the graffiti we're seeing all over NE Seattle? It's counter culture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58247673834366157162007-04-20T16:07:00.000-07:002007-04-20T16:07:00.000-07:00Behavior issues non existent at AS1???? Without be...Behavior issues non existent at AS1???? Without behavior expectations there can be no behavior issues. When we went to tour AS1 I was shocked at what I saw. Kids wearing hoods and earphones in class, majority of middle schoolers with piercings and goth looking hair styles, middle schoolers with very bad attitude, teenagers making out in the hall, and a young boy (maybe 8 or 9) cursing like a sailor in the hall. It all seemed like the norm. Then there are no academic expectations to speak of, as the WASL is not counted. We toured one mixed grade class (grades 3-8 who all shared the same class) who collectively decided they didn't want to take math. This was perfectly OK with the principal, he explained that kids who had an interest in math could take it as an elective. And then there is the art wall of grafitti, defaming a public building, that was apparantly advocated by the school principal. Again, if there is no expectation to behave a certain way (IE don't grafitti on school property), then you probably don't have behavior issues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3458181170919996012007-04-20T13:33:00.000-07:002007-04-20T13:33:00.000-07:00Roy brings up two good points. One, alternative sc...Roy brings up two good points. One, alternative school parents are a pretty committed bunch when it comes to their school. They "get" their school and thus feel very tied to its success. Two, many of the alternatives are K-8s which is something parents say they like and want more of in our district.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58477544171565775962007-04-20T12:19:00.000-07:002007-04-20T12:19:00.000-07:00I am a parent of a child at AS1.The problem with e...I am a parent of a child at AS1.<BR/><BR/>The problem with excess number of alternative programs in the NE should be relieved by moving the two all-city draw programs (AS1 and Summit) closer to the center of the city. Having two all-city draw programs located at the extreme north end of the district is non-sensical.<BR/><BR/>Whether AS1 is "underperforming" by WASL standards is really irrelevant, as many (most?) of the families that are in that program regard WASL testing as an illegitimate way to evaluate school or individual academic performance anyway. Since nobody is forced to enroll in an alternative program, then it is a reasonable conclusion that the families who are there are there by choice and are reasonably happy with it.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the suggestion of combining AE2, AS1 and Summit: AE2, AS1 and Summit are very distinct and independant programs, and just because they are all alternative does not even begin to imply that they are either the same or even compatible. Anybody who has even a small level of familiarity with how these programs actually work recognize that this idea is a non-starter.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the post about behavior of middle-school students: one of AS1's many strengths is that these sorts of behaviors are basically non-existent at AS1. AS1 parents are perhaps in a very small minority of parents in Seattle Public Schools who have elementary school children and are not worried about middle school.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120444973792909383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15154662885218099732007-04-20T08:50:00.000-07:002007-04-20T08:50:00.000-07:00There are also big differences in how enrollment i...There are also big differences in how enrollment is handled for elementary, middle and high school.<BR/><BR/>From the district's website on the <A HREF="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/eso/faqs_secondary.html" REL="nofollow">enrollment FAQ </A>page I found the following:<BR/><BR/><B>What's a middle school "region"?</B><BR/>Middle schools are grouped into regions for purposes of determining assignment priority and transportation. A middle school region includes a group of elementary school reference areas. Each region has two regular middle schools. Students who apply during Open Enrollment will be given an assignment priority if they choose a school in their region. (Priorities for special programs may vary.) To find your region, call or visit an Enrollment Center of the Bilingual Family Center.<BR/><BR/><B>What's a "reference area "?</B><BR/>A "reference area" is a geographic area surrounding an elementary school. Every student has one elementary reference area school based on the student's home address. Elementary reference areas are combined into middle school regions, which are used to determine both assignment priorities and transportation eligibility for middle school students.<BR/><BR/><B>Are there "regions" for high schools?</B><BR/>No. All high schools are part of the same region, which is district-wide for Seattle Public Schools.Beth Bakemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16827919509722526726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90584437798127845262007-04-20T08:43:00.000-07:002007-04-20T08:43:00.000-07:00No guarantees. Our reference school is Eckstein, w...No guarantees. Our reference school is Eckstein, we didn't get in.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83069173162131915692007-04-20T08:33:00.000-07:002007-04-20T08:33:00.000-07:00New to the district...Can someone clariy the follo...New to the district...Can someone clariy the following. I thought that you were guaranteed a spot in your reference school, but could apply to other schools in your cluster (not guaranteed to get in) and get transportation. IS what I'm reading above true, that a family may not even get into their reference school sometimes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88539431737639167722007-04-20T08:18:00.000-07:002007-04-20T08:18:00.000-07:00Statistics across the country show that children w...Statistics across the country show that children who attend private school do no better than children who attend public school, academically.<BR/><BR/>So, there must be social reasons that families choose private. It must be the lack of predictability, large class size, behavior issues etc. <BR/><BR/>I know Bryant's math club beats Evergreen's (private, gifted school), in competitions, and Bryant doesn't even have Spectrum.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42995411027054191112007-04-20T07:37:00.000-07:002007-04-20T07:37:00.000-07:00Agreed. The elementary and high schools are great...Agreed. The elementary and high schools are great, its the middle schools that are the problem, and that's why so many go private.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49344865118073347072007-04-20T06:51:00.000-07:002007-04-20T06:51:00.000-07:00I know another family who went from private to pub...I know another family who went from private to public and are very happy. Their child needed a larger circle of friends, and was very sports oriented. The private school had only 60 kids and they were much more artistically natured than sports natured. The parents transferred him to a public NE elementary in 2nd grade and they are very happy there.<BR/><BR/>Just another not for marketing. Seattle families are smart, they will research and find the best place for their child, but Seattle still needs to market the heck out their schools. Public school may have been able to draw this family at kindergarten instead of at 2nd grade?? There are a lot of great things happening in public school and we need to get the work out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8051719580245785382007-04-20T01:44:00.000-07:002007-04-20T01:44:00.000-07:00How about a note on why one family went from priva...How about a note on why one family went from private to public? A good program can actually make that happen. Our child needed accelerated education. Private wasn't working. We found out about Spectrum almost by accident (not like they market it or anything) and have had an excellent elementary experience. A little trepidational about how middle school will play out, but we're willing to give it a try.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17328501252396604072007-04-19T18:44:00.000-07:002007-04-19T18:44:00.000-07:00Speaking of behavior. Here is what we witnessed in...Speaking of behavior. Here is what we witnessed in middle school this year. We feel that the schools in Seattle just do not discipline students enough. So much, is just over looked that it has become the norm.<BR/><BR/>1) Child curses at the teacher. Teacher trys to calm the child down, but no disciplinary action.<BR/>2)Child screams at the teacher, leaves class slamming the door. Teacher asks the child to use a lower voice and calm down. No disciplinary action.<BR/>3)Fight on the school bus resulting in a black eye. The instigator was banned from the bus for two days.<BR/>4)Kids wandering through the hall unsupervised. Supposed to have a hall pass, but its never enforced.<BR/>5)A lot of theft. Teacher had his ipod stolen, another teacher had his laptop stolen off his desk at school. Bus driver had his cell phone stolen, three students stole the Halloween candy from a special ed room. No disciplinary action for any of the above, except the ipod theft, which resulted in the student having to garden the beds in front of the school.<BR/>6)Kids leave campus, and nobody ever notices (its a closed campus).<BR/><BR/>Behavior is no longer addressed. Kids are not expected to behave themselves. They have no respect for adults or authority, and nobody seems to care. For an incoming family, this is very scary, especially if you have a young kindergartener who you don't want to be influenced. This surely must drive some to private school.By the way, we are in a "good" middle school, I can't imagine what some of the more challenging middle schools are like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59885703321428955392007-04-19T17:27:00.000-07:002007-04-19T17:27:00.000-07:00I'm a teacher in the district and I have a two-yea...I'm a teacher in the district and I have a two-year-old. I'm already thinking private because I abhor the low academic and behavioral expectations of the schools I have seen. I really am amazed at the behavior that is acceptable in the high schools- kids in the hall at all times, etc. I have worked in other urban districts, and the expectations were much higher.<BR/>None of the other teachers/staff at my school have kids in the district past elementary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24316066962673421652007-04-19T16:39:00.000-07:002007-04-19T16:39:00.000-07:00The NE part of Seattle has more alternative school...The NE part of Seattle has more alternative schools than any other cluster in the district. We have AEII (K-5), Summit (K-12), AS1 (K-8). Perhaps we do not need all of these alternative programs in one geographic area? AEII seems to get fair enrollment, but AS1 does not fill their elementary or middle school program, and Summit does not fill its elementary, middle or high school programs. AS1 and Summit are grossly under performing schools, (I don't buy the opt out of the WASL excuse that AS1 likes to use for their horrid test scores - 13% pass rate on the math WASL).<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, the high performing, very popular, traditional schools in the NE are over enrolled, with kids being turned away. There is a clear need for capacity in traditional schools, and excess/extra capacity in alternative schools. Isn't this as clear as it gets? Don't the numbers tell the story?<BR/><BR/>I don't want to see the alternative programs closed, but why not combine AEII, AS1, and Summit, and have them share a buiding?It would certainly save a lot on transportation costs. We could use those buildings to create more middle and high school seats. And, I agree with the earlier poster, Hale needs to increase its enrollment, and offer AP classes. Give the people what they want!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75371186833528114322007-04-19T14:39:00.000-07:002007-04-19T14:39:00.000-07:00I know some Summit parents and could forward your ...I know some Summit parents and could forward your query. <BR/><BR/>Summit was developed as a K-12 and, when it was in the central area, made more sense in terms of being an all-city draw. The district "temporarily" moved them 20 years ago to the far north end. They have been pretty much fighting for their lives over the last 2+years. I personally do not believe that district staff have faith in the Summit program.<BR/><BR/>I think Summit would be willing to listen to any idea. I'm not sure parents in the district have enough information to understand Summit's focus and form so maybe it would be good to start over. However, I think the district staff would just as soon start over entirely and discard Summit's focus. (I say that because 2+ years ago when the district was reformulating the enrollment plan/school closures, they planned to summarily close Summit without explanation.)Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68313689618116128192007-04-19T14:16:00.000-07:002007-04-19T14:16:00.000-07:00Possibly off topic, but I'm hoping a Summit parent...Possibly off topic, but I'm hoping a Summit parent can speak to my question: would the school consider a switch to K-8? <BR/><BR/>It seems counter intuitive to have a high school program across the road from Hale. Summit high school enrollment and graduation numbers are very low. I know it's an alternative program, but they're low nonetheless. <BR/><BR/>There is a great need for middle school seats, and many families want K-8 schools. (I think Greg Thornton went on record advocating more K-8 schools.) Summit appears to be under utilized. There are enough buildings and play fields to develop a K-12 "village," and the schools are easily reached by Metro from all directions. WenGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5566672550627449322007-04-19T13:27:00.000-07:002007-04-19T13:27:00.000-07:00Families in Seattle are assigned to traditional sc...Families in Seattle are assigned to traditional schools based on their geographic location (how close they are to the school). Because all of the "popular", high performing schools fill up, nobody outside of the neighborhood can get into them. Yet, the neighborhood kids are still not guaranteed a spot in ther neighborhood school, and this causes parents a great dearl of stress. They realize they must have a back up plan, just in case. They go to look at private school thinking if we don't get into public school X then we will go to private school Z. The problem is when they see private school Z, they compare it to public school X and realize how much more their child will receive at private school Z. If they have the means they may decide not to even pursue public school X anymore. How do I know this....it happened to us. We wanted our child to go to Stevens elementary in Capitol Hill, but since we were not guaranteed a spot, we decided to just "check out" a couple of neighborhood private schools. Fell in love one and decided to forget all about Stevens. Had we been guaranteed a spot at Stevens, we would not have needed a plan B, and thus would have never even looked into private school. So who does choice benefit? If you live in the neighborhood near a school you like you still have no guarantees.l, but don't have any guarantees, stress out, and need a plan b just in case. . If you live outside of the neighborhood you would never get in, so you have no choice there either. Doesn't make sense to me. We need predictability. We would be at Stevens today. I know alternative school do it all differently, I'm just speaking about traditional schools here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40888678271231650262007-04-19T13:07:00.000-07:002007-04-19T13:07:00.000-07:00What wild fluctuations are you referring to?? Roos...What wild fluctuations are you referring to?? Roosevelt, Ballard, and Eckstein Always get a fairly large waitlist. Every year. Magnolia families are still not getting into Ballard. This year Roosevelt had a larger than normal waitlist probably due to renovations, but it, as well as Eckstein are always at capacity with large waitlists. In the NE it's not year to year, it's pretty consistent. There is a great lack of capacity at all levels, middle, HS and elementary. That is why no schools were closed here. We need more capacity, and it's not fair to force NE neighborhood kids to go to NW Seattle schools (Hamilton), to Shoreline, or to alternative schools that have excess space like Summit and AS1. We need capacity. Plain and simple.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51175208651108174992007-04-19T12:55:00.000-07:002007-04-19T12:55:00.000-07:00I second the above posters comments. Summitt middl...I second the above posters comments. Summitt middle and high school are under enrolled. Parents (apparantly from all over the city since they have an all city draw) are not happy choosing Summit for middle and HS. So, since Ecksteing and Roosevelt are so over crowded why not use that building as a Middle School, as well as adding capacity to Hale. And to re-iterate, it appears that the NE wants AP classes and perhaps a great band program as then numbers show with Roosevelts large (364 kid) waitlist. So lets get AP and honors back at Hale. Doesn't the public/consumer drive the market??? <BR/>I would never suggest adding capacity at Eckstein or Roosevelt. If there is one common complaint from NE families when it comes to Ecksten, is it's size. Way to big for a middle school. Let's relieve it, and not force parents out to Hamilton, which now has a waitlist too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68532801370285748952007-04-19T12:54:00.000-07:002007-04-19T12:54:00.000-07:00This year Roosevelt has a huge wait list, a few ye...This year Roosevelt has a huge wait list, a few years ago it was Ballard (law suit resulted) soon it will be Garfield. This sort of wild fluctuation is one of the effects of 30% of our students being in private schools. That 30% is a huge unpredictable float that has the power to displace current public school students if they are offered a reason (like a lovely renovated building) to return to public schools. This year, people in the NE have to “settle” for Garfield. Next year when the remodeled building opens people who live two miles from it won’t be able to get in. Sometimes it amazes me how short sighted people can be (why didn't Roosevelt have a wait list LAST year?). We cannot have real predictability in our school system as long as 30% of our school age population is out there looking for a reason to jump in (or out) at any time. I expect that the solution is to make every school a great school, limiting choice won’t do that.<BR/><BR/>MaureenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77565050034018306132007-04-19T12:27:00.000-07:002007-04-19T12:27:00.000-07:00I wasn't talking about adding capacity at existing...I wasn't talking about adding capacity at existing schools by overcrowding them - I was talking about adding capacity by adding an additional school/through rennovations. Summit K-12 should be a new middle school. NE Seattle needs more middle school capacity rather than continuing to overcrowd Eckstein and get parents to agree to send their kids West to Hamilton.<BR/><BR/>Also - Nathan Hale needs to add capacity with their upcoming rennovation and they need to continue to provide AP classes to adequately serve NE Seattle parent/children wishes.<BR/><BR/>JMIAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84031117959703656092007-04-19T11:03:00.000-07:002007-04-19T11:03:00.000-07:00A lot of the later posts are very sad but not surp...A lot of the later posts are very sad but not surprising. To address a few things:<BR/><BR/>-you cannot keep adding capacity at schools that are already overenrolled. It is not fair to the students and faculty. When my older son entered Eckstein 8 years ago,the superintendent at the time got a lot of flack from parents in one area and sure enough, 90 more kids were added. He also kindly sent a letter to all those parents apologizing for the problems and yet never informed the other 1000 parents that he had increased the size of the school by almost 10%. Eckstein is larger than half of the high schools and yet gets budgeted as a middle school. The staff does a fantastic job with large number of students there. Roosevelt was built for 1600 and has 1700. There are not enough lockers for everyone. You cannot add more capacity there either.<BR/><BR/>-one of the prime reasons for school closure is to not spread resources so thinly, stretching resources at schools that are underenrolled. Closing schools should, in theory, drive more resources to fewer schools with more schools operating at capacity and covering their costs.<BR/><BR/>-I, along with other parents, did try to fight the change at Hale. A counselor there told me that they didn't want to advertise what they were doing for fear of losing parents who wanted separate AP/Honors classes for their students. Well, parents aren't dummys and,of course, have figured it out. Hale is a comprehensive high school, by the way. <BR/><BR/>Dr. Thorton talked about this issue of site-based management at his interview forum. I agree with him on the earned autonomy model. The problem is Hale was operating well but each high school, much more than middle and elementary to my experience, operates as its own fiefdom. The teachers and staff at many high schools very much take ownership and steer a lot of the course a high school will take. It is up to us, as parents, to tell the district that (1) we want to be part of the process as the "consumers" of their schools about what is in those schools and (2) we want a pullback on site-based management and want a clear vision of what a Seattle public high school will offer.<BR/><BR/>Melissa W.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.com