tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post7281739211067428754..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: New Seattle School Board Leadership ElectedMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46933589996223852972013-12-08T18:43:47.102-08:002013-12-08T18:43:47.102-08:00dw -
Yup, 800. A whole lot of the infrastructur...dw - <br /><br />Yup, 800. A whole lot of the infrastructure of the building was designed for 800. There were multiple variances granted by the city during construction and the bulk of them were based on the school having a capacity of 800. (aka, no parking lot, etc)<br /><br />But as you noted, these numbers flex and move so much, that it can be impossible to follow. The 900-950 was based on the square footage of the footprint. But the original design had a large number of unusable spaces that were designed as deliberately unusable so that the building would only have 800 students. The pull out flex spaces were a trade off for the cafetorium. They could have build an auditorium but instead the design team pushed for all these small group spaces and gave up the auditorium square footage to do it. <br /><br />So, IMHO, the 900-950 numbers was already a stretch as it pushed into service spaces that were never intended to be used. <br /><br />The 1100 is only happening because of serious creativity on the part of teaching staff. But what can be invisible to parents is that many of these creative changes were implemented with the idea that they would be one year fixes. When these temporary fixes become permanent features, the student learning experience is what suffers. <br /><br />Again, current staff is the best I have seen in the last 10 years. But they have inherited a very broken system. <br /><br />This is a leadership failure, period. The level of staff that is charged with making things work is the not the level of staff that needs to be charged with setting a vision for what SPS could be. <br /><br />Meg Diaz said something once about opening Jane Addams as a middle school in 2009 that really struck me. She said, ok, what if everyone is wrong and we don't really need four north end middle schools. The worst case scenario is that you still have 4 middle schools in the north end with at least 700 students per school. And this was at a time when the ed spec for middle school was 800 students and 1000 was considered to be a huge school. <br /><br />That is why it is a leadership issue. We are only getting another middle school when the conversation has reached the point of serious debate of whether or not a school is physically safe and not about student learning. We should never have gotten to this conversation. We should be talking about the student learning experience. <br /><br />At 1100 students the master schedule is a mess. Many students did not get their electives this year because you can't make the schedule work.kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2165450553266745772013-12-08T18:20:45.013-08:002013-12-08T18:20:45.013-08:00800?? Everything I heard during the later stages ...800?? Everything I heard during the later stages of construction and just before move-in for HIMS was 900-950 capacity. And of course there have been configuration adjustments since then to increase the capacity (computer labs to classrooms). It would not surprise me if the building's capacity were to be assessed today in its current configuration if it came in at 1000. Not that I'm hoping those adjustments are permanent, but as you've wisely pointed out many times, <i>every</i> school is going to have to share some pain over the next few years. <br /><br />The problem with capacity numbers is that they're all fuzzy, and we've seen the district make huge adjustments to them almost overnight when it suited their needs. Again, I'm not accusing the current teams because I think they've been doing the best job I've seen over the years, but I'm sure you remember this from previous school closures. <br /><br />This is why for me it boils down to what I see with my own eyes. The building is kinda-sorta-barely working right now. I agree that it's not a level right now that makes sense for the long term. But if numbers dropped by 100 students next year (which would allow for grandfathering the small group of 8th graders), I'd be perfectly fine with it, given the state of the entire north end. It would be <i>much</i> better than today.<br /><br />I guess we may have to disagree on the real-world meaning of "safe", but one thing we definitely agree on is that this is a leadership failure. Not just a recent one, but one that has been creeping up for years and should have been on everyone's radar for a long time. There's no excuse, but SPS works a lot like politicians where they just keep kicking the can down the road in the hopes that when the crap finally hits the fan it's on someone else's watch. I think we're just seeing a hint of what's coming over the next 5 years.<br />dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63063096785839832272013-12-08T14:33:09.410-08:002013-12-08T14:33:09.410-08:00Dw-
I am not following your math, but I also don&...Dw-<br /><br />I am not following your math, but I also don't follow district math either. <br /><br />There are 170 students scheduled to leave. If everything else was the same enrollment would be about 930 next year. However, I sincerely doubt 930. The 5th grade class from the feeder schools is much larger this years so I would expect another enrollment bump that would bring enrollment closer to 1000. <br /><br />We have to disagree about safe. The school was designed for 800 students. 1000 is a lot for that building. 1100 is just too much. <br /><br />FWIW, I think families should advocate for whatever makes sense. IMHO this is a leadership failure as this should have been handled years ago. <br /><br />Hamilton really needs to have access to some of Lincoln to manage overflow. Without the ability to flex, they have to arr on the side of under 1000. kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88629753491319132502013-12-08T12:46:02.458-08:002013-12-08T12:46:02.458-08:00Hi Kellie,
First, let's make sure I've go...Hi Kellie,<br /><br />First, let's make sure I've got the approximate numbers correct.<br /><br />Roughly 280 APP kids are slated to start at JAMS next fall, with those numbers based on NE kids who are either 6th/7th graders at HIMS right now or incoming 6th graders who would otherwise have been slated for HIMS next fall. So we're pulling 280 kids out of the current equation. But the incoming 6th grade class for next fall is substantially larger than the 8th grade class that's leaving, so we need to add those kids back in to come up with aggregate numbers. My understanding was that would be about 100 or so additional kids, making about 180 student decrease as compared with this year. If this is the 170 student decrease you're talking about then it sounds like we're on the same page, and I'm happy to work with 170.<br /><br />That means that even if the oft-quoted number of 68 kids was able to stay to finish out their middle school, that there would be more than 100 <i>less</i> students in the building next year than this year! Are we still on the same page? I believe this is factually true, but I would like to hear it backed up (or not) before running too much farther down this path.<br /><br />As for the building itself <i>this</i> year, I too spend time in the building on a regular basis, and while I might characterize it as "uncomfortable", I very much disagree with the notion that they do not <i>safely</i> fit in the building. It's a nuisance for for teachers when they don't get prep in their classrooms, but this happens all over the city. It's part of what happens when every building is over-capacity, and as you well know, it's going to be happening for the foreseeable future in many buildings, not just HIMS. I'm not hearing safety-related tales from students or parents, as we <i>have</i> heard from students/parents at Eckstein recently. The HIMS building is, IMO, very much maxed out, but safe.<br /><br />So the scenario of having 68 kids stay means roughly 100 kids <i>less</i> in the building next year, which should relieve a great deal of stress on the staff and schedule. That's at least 3 classrooms less than this year, and almost 10% of the student body. If I were a parent in that building next year I would be completely satisfied, from a capacity standpoint, with 100 less kids than this year, and it would only be for one year. That's why I'm fully supportive of the push to make it happen.<br /><br />If we're working with different numbers or overall assumptions, please correct me.<br />dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9326304202760117272013-12-08T10:53:10.803-08:002013-12-08T10:53:10.803-08:00dw
I am deeply sympathetic on this geo-split issu...dw<br /><br />I am deeply sympathetic on this geo-split issue. In addition to the APP split there are also 12 students (from 7 different elementary schools) that are scheduled to go to Eckstein next year. <br /><br />IMHO, I think your characterization of Hamiltons' enrollment is not correct. There are only 170 students scheduled to move. The projected enrollment number for next year is very low. It is based on historical averages and for the last few years, Hamilton's enrollment has been higher than projected, not just for APP, but for all categories of students. <br /><br />I have two students at Hamilton this year and while Cindy Watters has worked a miracle getting everyone in the building, I would not say they safely fit in the building. I would say that staff is going to extra-ordinary measures to keep things safe and that staff can only be expected to do this for a short time. <br /><br />In addition to the part where several of my student's classes are over the contracted limit. Not one teacher has a prep period in their class room. <br />My son has a medical issue and so I spent an unusual amount of time in the nurse's office. There is only so long the school can function at this rate.<br /><br />I wish it hadn't gotten this far. We needed a new middle school at least two years ago. But nobody was willing to make the bold investments into future growth. <br /><br />We are going to have the same pain with high school. kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62748737888735123752013-12-07T23:13:20.830-08:002013-12-07T23:13:20.830-08:00I would really rather not characterize this as a p...I would really rather not characterize this as a personal argument. I'm not even directly affected, though I know lots of kids that would be.<br /><br />This is more about clarity. If there is no political will to let a few kids finish out their middle school experience without splitting them up from their school and friends <i>again</i>, then so be it. But we should be very clear about the reasons, because political will is very, very different from capacity data, which should be relatively straightforward to generate and analyze.<br />dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62460620133379004892013-12-07T19:11:41.597-08:002013-12-07T19:11:41.597-08:00Mr Wolf:
Thank you very much for your presence her...Mr Wolf:<br />Thank you very much for your presence here, I really appreciate your time and energy to keep us informed this way. Would it possible to provide us the details of this argument between you and dw? The facts (the numbers) in question?<br />Thank you very much.<br /> - Fair Share?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-23744832670973075822013-12-07T11:12:29.916-08:002013-12-07T11:12:29.916-08:00weekender, I have no idea what point you're tr...weekender, I have no idea what point you're trying to make.<br /><br />Melissa said: <i>Sometimes the truth is in between there.</i><br /><br />I completely agree, and in case it wasn't obvious that the above was an apology, let me make it very clear: Joe, I do apologize for excessively harsh wording. I don't want to understate how appreciated it is that you have chosen to come here to this board and participate in recent discussions, and at times it's easy to forget that this is not a private parents' gripe area. Fair or not, if you personally had given that answer to Kay I'm sure I would not have made the same comment here, but I can understand the offense taken.<br /><br />Over many years we have seen staff respond to hundreds of questions from the Board. Occasionally we've seen blatant lies (I'm thinking of previous administrations), occasionally we've seen honest mistakes, but as Melissa points out, sometimes the truth is in between or difficult to ascertain. Data can be presented in many ways, depending on how we would like it to be perceived. And to be fair, the vast majority of the answers are reasonable, helpful and clearly in good faith.<br /><br />This particular answer given to the board in response to a specific board amendment proposal does feel misleading, for the reasons stated earlier. You've been pretty forthcoming with information, and I think many here would appreciate an informed explanation. The building is full, but functional and safe, this year. How is it that <i>less</i> kids next year would not be possible?dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86461539406553395232013-12-07T10:07:07.621-08:002013-12-07T10:07:07.621-08:00Stretch it, parse it, muffle it all you want dw.
...Stretch it, parse it, muffle it all you want dw.<br /> Answer: nope. <br />You used "lied" as is written, virtual or otherwise. Verbal gymnastics abounds all around here.<br /><br />weekender <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59600506512923815172013-12-07T08:55:38.366-08:002013-12-07T08:55:38.366-08:00I, too, appreciate Joe weighing in and I would ask...I, too, appreciate Joe weighing in and I would ask people to use "misleading" or "inaccurate" rather than lying. If you know 100% that the intent was to lie, then don't say it. Sometimes the truth is in between there.<br /><br />I will put one thing out there that seems to get confused.<br /><br />Libel is written.<br />Slander is verbal. <br /><br />There is a legal difference. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2549240031012544082013-12-07T08:30:27.509-08:002013-12-07T08:30:27.509-08:00Hi Joe, and thanks for weighing in.
The wording m...Hi Joe, and thanks for weighing in.<br /><br />The wording might have been too strong, and I do appreciate you and Tracy's work in particular among all staff as standout quality -- especially in communication with families. But the response to Kay's question was grossly misleading at best.<br /><br />The question was: would there be room in the building for those few kids for one year. The answer given was a flat out No. But the planned numbers for HIMS next year in aggregate (losses minus gains) removes substantially more kids from the building next year than the 68 kids in question, which means that even if those kids stay, there will still be significantly less kids in the building than there are this year. And no one can deny that all students attending HIMS this year really do safely fit in the building, even if it is crowded.<br /><br />I respect your knowledge of the details, and I'm willing to take it on the virtual chin if I'm wrong about the above, but my take on this is that your staff member answered a different question ("would the kids fit based on ideal metrics for the building?", rather than what was asked, "would the kids fit?"), thereby misleading the Board. <i>Many</i> buildings in the district are operating above their ideal capacities right now, which is why that kind of answer <i>feels</i> disingenuous. Better?<br />dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30684436299499916262013-12-06T16:50:54.189-08:002013-12-06T16:50:54.189-08:00from dw:
" ... Bottom line is that when the ...from dw:<br /><br />" ... Bottom line is that when the original vote took place, and Kay pleaded to let these few kids stay, the staff lied about it not being possible. Would the building still be crowded? Maybe. But it would be at least 2 classrooms LESS crowded than it is right now, and better yet the following year."<br /><br />The staff - otherwise known as me and my co-workers - lied? Nice.<br /><br />I hope everyone reading this agrees that it's name-calling at besr and on rhe way to slander.<br />Joe Wolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747791661117554332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27152910709456144142013-12-06T15:19:09.844-08:002013-12-06T15:19:09.844-08:00Thanks for the information Melissa. While I hate t...Thanks for the information Melissa. While I hate to see my child's pain, I agree with move forward and others that its time to focus on the future. There will be things lost but undoubtedly things gained at the new school as well...and how cool is it to be in the first graduating class of a new (well sort of) Seattle Middle School!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14786773881631701307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64029012098090556702013-12-06T13:23:21.430-08:002013-12-06T13:23:21.430-08:00Thanks, Melissa, for the information.
And, no, i...Thanks, Melissa, for the information. <br /><br />And, no, it wasn't your post that made me think they would revisit this issue. I caught part of the Board meeting on TV, and my recollection was that Sharon Peaslee said they "should" revisit this. <br /><br />Whether they will, I don't know. And maybe I read too much into the comments. But that's really why I was wondering how the process would work, because it sounded to me like they might want to reconsider it. <br /><br />And, we've seen how communities can be blind-sided when plans change suddenly and without warning (eg, Wedgwood getting pulled from Eckstein at the last hour in draft proposal #3), so I just don't want NE families to wake up in January and find out JAMS is back to being a 6th grade roll up. <br /><br />It seems unlikely, but then again, we can't underestimate the potential for last minute surprises when it comes to enrollment. I expected my kid to still be at Lowell right now, finishing up elementary school, but we all know what happened there. The price of being an SPS parent is eternal vigilance. Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81505724567477203832013-12-06T13:02:47.845-08:002013-12-06T13:02:47.845-08:00First, Jane, thanks for that update. I thought it...First, Jane, thanks for that update. I thought it was still 2 miles and yes, 2.5 is pretty far. I'm wondering how to advocate for a change and if maybe the district is thinking kids get rides or have cars (which is probably NOT the majority of kids). <br /><br />Lori, I hope I didn't make people think that the Board WILL change anything. All I said was that a couple of Board members expressed sympathy. You'd have to ask them what they think (or maybe I will). <br /><br />There is a Work Session next week on Facilities where they could cover it (but I don't see an agenda so I don't know). <br /><br />I don't believe anyone on the Board could write an amendment after the plan has been approved. It is likely to have to come from staff first. Again, I could ask. <br /><br />Leanne, yes there are very specific rules about policies the Board makes and procedures that the Superintendent makes. They are available to view at the School Board's home page. <br /><br />I am with Lori in not advocating anything. I can see IF there were room, to allow some students to finish. However in the name of "fairness" and because so many middle school students are affected, then shared pain might be the fairest thing to do.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50949115432695841552013-12-06T12:20:28.874-08:002013-12-06T12:20:28.874-08:00Thanks Lori. Well said on the considerations.
I ...Thanks Lori. Well said on the considerations.<br /><br />I am curious, in general, what the board's role is in setting policy and determining specific criteria related to its implementation. Can they basically approve an amendment at any time to policies/procedures proposed by the Superintendent and previously approved by the Board? Are there any rules/bylaws that govern the roles/powers of the Board and of the Superintendent?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14786773881631701307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26232906750277314862013-12-06T10:46:55.886-08:002013-12-06T10:46:55.886-08:00It sounds like a few of the Board members are will...It sounds like a few of the Board members are willing to reconsider the issue of grandfathering some middle schoolers next year. <br /><br />My question is how does this work procedurally? A Board member writes an amendment first, submits it for consideration, then it's voted on 2 weeks later? Is that the normal process?<br /><br />Also, at which work session would something like this be discussed?<br /><br />If the Board is serious is about revisiting this issue, they should be open and transparent about it and let all relevant stakeholders weigh in on the matter. The case that 7th grade parents are making is compelling but it could equally apply to 6th graders who went through moves and splits too. <br /><br />On the other hand, a number of the current 7th graders joined APP only at middle school and never went through a split or a move before. Yes, it's terrible that they are being split from friends, but so are the kids at Eckstein.<br /><br />So which kids "deserve" to be grandfathered and which don't? I would argue that before the district overturns any part of the November 20th vote, they need to consider ALL of the affected kids.<br /><br />If the issue is really about minimizing disruptions to "the same kids" who've been through splits and moves, then they need to grandfather the subset of current 6th and 7th graders who have been in APP long enough to have gone through the first split from Lowell to TM and/or who were at Lowell prior to the Lincoln move.<br /><br />But if the issue is about letting 8th graders finish their 8th grade year at their current school, then it needs to apply to Eckstein too. And whatever is decided now should be what is done when Wil-Pac and Meany open.<br /><br />And please note, I'm not advocating any particular position here. I'm just trying to bring up other relevant facts that weren't part of the testimony Wednesday night. In the end, I hope the Board and district give as much deference as possible to the JAMS planning principal about what it's going to take to make the school successful. And I have no idea where she stands on this particular matter.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58439805475925262192013-12-06T09:04:44.386-08:002013-12-06T09:04:44.386-08:00I think the 2.5 mile walk zone for high school is ...I think the 2.5 mile walk zone for high school is a problem. It is not realistic for a high school student to walk 2.5 miles to and from school every day (so 5 miles total). That's a 45 minute walk each way. I have a friend who lives 2.4 miles from Garfield, and it is a financial hardship for them to have to purchase a ORCA card for their child.<br /><br />Jane<br /><br />p.s. I double checked on the district website and you have to live 2.5 miles away from the high school to qualify for a bus pass - not 2 miles. I think the requirement should be changed to 1.5 miles.<br /><br />http://www.seattleschools.org/modules/cms/pages.phtml?pageid=191481Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80356209324773502932013-12-05T19:19:05.659-08:002013-12-05T19:19:05.659-08:00Anonymous, quoted by Fair Share -
Because those ...Anonymous, quoted by Fair Share - <br /><br />Because those rising 7th and 8th graders are students in Jane Addams K-8, not Jane Addams Middle School. They're two different schools. JAK8 is moving out, JAMS is moving in. Some people will choose to switch, but the programs are distinct. <br /><br />I really wish people would stop proposing dismantling Jane Addams K-8. It's an excellent program.John Sullivannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43839887702270983162013-12-05T17:57:47.215-08:002013-12-05T17:57:47.215-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13250893066370788442013-12-05T17:26:28.935-08:002013-12-05T17:26:28.935-08:00Reposting Anon with no name because you will be de...Reposting Anon with no name because you will be deleted soon. Please read the commenting rules before you post next time.<br /><br />Anonymous said...<br />Responding to the issue of populating a new middle school at JAMS -- if it was the high priority of the District, then why did they first move out of the building the rising 7th and 8th graders there now as part of Jane Addams K-8? It would have been far less disruptive to ask students to remain in the same building than to import them from another one. Many of these comments suggest that rising 8th graders should give up their final year of middle school so that those behind them will have a better education. Will anyone suggest why it is better for these rising 8th graders, who have been moved twice already. How is it in their best interest to make 5 school transitions in 10 years?<br /><br />12/5/13, 5:11 PM<br /><br />"How is it in their best interest to make 5 school transitions in 10 years?"<br /><br />And how is this fair and equitable?<br /><br /> - Fair Share?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48346370247711848242013-12-05T17:11:17.905-08:002013-12-05T17:11:17.905-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79800630723615368072013-12-05T17:05:54.472-08:002013-12-05T17:05:54.472-08:00I would absolutely concur with Po3. If students -...I would absolutely concur with Po3. If students - high school students - are trying to get to school on time, the district should help them.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26309148001005814132013-12-05T17:02:41.655-08:002013-12-05T17:02:41.655-08:00RB Dad -
I was the first to post on this thread ...RB Dad - <br /><br />I was the first to post on this thread about RBHS students coming to the board asking for Orca cards fully supporting their request and wondering how many channels that have gone through up to now!<br /><br />I hope somebody from the board follows up with these students as I believe all kids need to get to school, safely and on time.<br /><br />I agree with you on the myopic view here in the comments. You do get good at skipping comments with certain poster names, LOL!<br /><br />I have to defend Melissa and the original blog post, she covered the meeting well. She can't control the conversation in the comments.<br /><br />Anyway, I hope your students prevail on this. The cost to the district is really nothing versus the benefit to the students!Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47759867289856968222013-12-05T16:39:38.550-08:002013-12-05T16:39:38.550-08:00Lynn-
The state hasn't given money for APP tra...Lynn-<br />The state hasn't given money for APP transportation in a few years.<br /><br />Current Laurelhurst 6th graders are at Eckstein this year, so it's only the 7th and 8th graders that are at HIMS now from the old NSAP. <br /><br />Yes, all students are trying to get an education, Melissa--I wasn't implying anything else. Sorry if my comment came off as such.<br /><br />NE APP<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com