tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post7327070506072274255..comments2024-03-18T16:51:10.406-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Advanced Learning Task ForceMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16789495894340781272012-02-12T02:48:10.197-08:002012-02-12T02:48:10.197-08:00When our students who excel in academics get the s...<i>When our students who excel in academics get the same attention from the District as our students who excel in athletics, then I will think that the District isn't ashamed of them.</i><br /><br /><br />I'm mostly with you, Charlie: bring on the mensa cheerleaders, the smartypants marching band, the front page news and the King5 news coverage for our chess clubs, our high IQ kids, our mathletes... and then we can ease up about the SPS pride and the phoning-in of advanced/gifted learning.<br /><br />The fact alone that we, as a district, don't require gifted educator training for APP-tested kids is shameful.NorthSeattleParentOfTwonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64250125667470126792011-12-05T07:22:44.896-08:002011-12-05T07:22:44.896-08:00mw - because it is broken? For many. Too many ki...mw - because it is broken? For many. Too many kids who need more than gen ed but can't fit in a Spectrum class. That's a problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60812974910527828812011-11-30T12:34:41.509-08:002011-11-30T12:34:41.509-08:00I am extremely concerned about suggested changes t...I am extremely concerned about suggested changes to the exceptional Spectrum program that has seen my children academically challenged and allows them to grow, learn, and really love going to school everyday.<br />Proposed changes from the current self-contained Spectrum model to the cluster model are detrimental to the integrity and successful advancement of Wedgwood children. The cluster model study put forth by Dr. Brulles (Brulles, 2005), and espoused by some does not look at the cost benefit of self-contained gifted learning vs. the heterogeneous clustering of gifted students within inclusive classrooms. In fact, it quotes Rogers (2002) that self contained and gifted programs have suffered mainly due to inadequate funding and administrative attention. The study of the cluster model only purports to be better than no gifted learning program at all (Brulles, 2010). My other concern is that Principal Cronas has indicated that the testing and selection of students for classrooms would not even be able to follow the cluster model as designed, further weakening any argument that moving to the inclusive clustering model would be beneficial to current Spectrum students and Wedgwood as a whole. My final observation is that two local Northeast cluster schools within one mile of Wedgwood, that are option schools, of which Jane Adams has a current model that more aligns with the cluster model thereby already giving options to parents that prefer a inclusive heterogeneous cluster program.<br />Why change a program that is not broken??<br />mwAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17909722611966757632011-11-29T10:07:26.502-08:002011-11-29T10:07:26.502-08:00OK AS. We got it. Lawton parents got it. Yes, ...OK AS. We got it. Lawton parents got it. Yes, we've made constructive compromise like you wanted. Yes, we know you are immune. We marched to your drums. We got the "elitists" out. We will donate more ipads, support all PTA fundraisings, and anything else you want. Of course we will spend hours at home tutoring and "supplementing" with our kids to make sure those tests scores are spiffy. Yes, you are the best. <br /><br />-we do really get it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52164421094844252322011-11-28T22:45:13.544-08:002011-11-28T22:45:13.544-08:00Putting kids in year-ahead math if they can do the...Putting kids in year-ahead math if they can do the work is the way it should be. The way I see it the kids who test into Spectrum are able to do the work and should have to, and any others who show the ability should also be working ahead a year. If Lawton replaces self-contained with expanded walk-to math classes, that helps all the kids and makes for a more fluid grouping scheme. <br />I hope Wedgwood gets the same deal. The parents there should push for a like program in reading. As far as the hurt feelings, suck it up. Public school staff are immune to parent whining. They've all been vaccinated many times. Try to make a constructive compromise.<br /><br />ASAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70905603161091072132011-11-28T15:35:37.391-08:002011-11-28T15:35:37.391-08:00I've been traveling and too busy to post latel...I've been traveling and too busy to post lately, but I agree with TechyMom that I'd like the AL Advisory Group to consider grade skipping as another acceleration option. <br /><br />We seem to get really hung up on September 1 as some sort of magical date that determines a child's maturity and ability level. But I know that there are fall birthday kids who could truly thrive if grade skipped. For example, my PEPS group's kids are split between two grades due to the 9/1 cutoff, which has always seemed really arbitrary. I have a 3rd grader, while a kid born 10 days later is in 2nd grade!<br /><br />Of course we need a cutoff date for school, but we should be more flexible, particularly with kids born a few months before to a few months after the cutoff and be willing to place them into an appropriate grade based on readiness, not age. At the very least, it could be another option to offer to parents, instead of only offering Spectrum, ALO, or APP. It might also keep more kids at their neighborhood school.<br /><br />Right now, the only option for "grade skipping" is applying for early entrance to kindergarten, which not all parents know about or recognize as a possible benefit for their child at such young ages. But, if it becomes obvious in K or 1st grade that the child is ready for more challenge in all subjects, I don't see why parents can't have this option on the table again, especially if the child is close in age to the next grade level kids anyway.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33986852661512785402011-11-28T14:53:54.481-08:002011-11-28T14:53:54.481-08:00Charlie and Melissa,
I'd like to throw in an i...Charlie and Melissa,<br />I'd like to throw in an idea for the AL task force to consider...<br /><br />What about allowing grade-skipping? Moving kids up a grade eliminates the scheduling headaches associated with separate Spectrum classes at the elementary level. Instead of having two kinds of second graders, you just have some who become 3rd graders. <br /><br />Grade skipping fell out of fashion because of social issues. But, wouldn't those be mitigated if lots of kids were moving up a grade? You could group grade skippers together in the same class so they'd have age peers. If you have more than 30 such kids in a particular grade, you can put critical mass in more than one class.<br /><br />How do you get a lot of kids skipping? I would place students who demonstrate that they can do the work in the next grade up *by default* with a parent opt out. This could be based on MAP scores, getting all 4's on your report card, MSP scores, teacher recommendation, or other measures (ideas?). Note that these are measures of achievement -- can you do the work -- not giftedness. Any kid who can do the work should be allowed to move up a grade. <br /><br />An approach like this could replace Spectrum and ALO for 'bright' kids. Combined with opt-in honors for middle and high school, it seems like it could work well for a lot of kids and be much simpler to administer than the current system. <br /><br />I also like the idea of a highly-gifted program based purely on IQ without an achievement component. Gifted and bright are not the same thing, and gifted kids need a different sort of teaching, not just acceleration. Bright kids need acceleration, but the normal teaching methods work pretty well for them. <br /><br />Would either of you be willing to put the idea of grade-skipping on the table?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22698035823328700102011-11-28T12:19:33.364-08:002011-11-28T12:19:33.364-08:00"Self-contained vs. walk-to grouping. That sh..."Self-contained vs. walk-to grouping. That should be the issue."<br /><br />I wish that were the only issue to discuss at Wedgwood. Unfortunately, we have much bigger problems to address right now with the lack of transparency, the lack of any written plan or documentation, the lack of metrics, the lack of public discussions, the lack of answers to repeated direct questions, and the overall sense that old wounds within the school community have been reopened. All of these things are roadblocks to having open and informed conversations. <br /><br />I agree that much of this sort of discussion should be happening at the district level as well. And not to belabor the point, but I do agree with most of what you said. But right now, we have no idea at all what is being delivered in first grade at Wedgwood, nor what is planned for next year. That is our problem at the moment.TraceySnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54939373371612430222011-11-27T23:48:58.687-08:002011-11-27T23:48:58.687-08:00I'm not sure how it's working throughout L...I'm not sure how it's working throughout Lawton but I do know that my child and at least one other moved into Walk to Math recently so there is some flexibility in how students are being grouped (which is what the cluster model is supposed to offer).NLMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-23777623770171639522011-11-27T22:09:18.294-08:002011-11-27T22:09:18.294-08:00pity,
Frankenstein is right!
TSpity,<br /><br /><br />Frankenstein is right!<br /><br />TSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57529325594389713682011-11-27T22:06:03.915-08:002011-11-27T22:06:03.915-08:00Self-contained vs. walk-to grouping. That should b...Self-contained vs. walk-to grouping. That should be the issue. Grouping is a best practice for large classrooms. Walk-to seems the fairest, with tested-in, and teacher and parent id'd students doing harder work. Tested-in kids CAN do the work and other identified students can stay in if they perform. Could be in every school. Should be. Math as well as read/write. <br /><br />TSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87643325024356800612011-11-27T21:58:45.944-08:002011-11-27T21:58:45.944-08:00Truly gifted students sometimes have a profile of ...Truly gifted students sometimes have a profile of being low achievers, which is one of the reasons why using MAP for APP identification is a poor choice.<br /><br />However, along with MAP, teacher recommendations and other data, high achieving (non-gifted)students should be challenged to their utmost. Something better than what was formerly Spectrum should be available to this batch of students at every school. <br /><br />The district is currently cleaning up a Frankenstein program (Spectrum). At the same time, the district has never recognized how to do gifted education correctly at APP.<br /><br />--pity the committee membersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60575260274146123532011-11-27T21:44:05.077-08:002011-11-27T21:44:05.077-08:00"Spectrum for all."
One of the reason..."Spectrum for all." <br /><br />One of the reasons Spectrum works for the kids in it is because they are a group of high achievers who can keep up with the pace. Do you want to change that? It won't ne Spectrum anymore. Charlie, you told me as we were leaving a building many years ago that you would do all you could to make sure your daughter was not as bored as you were in school.<br /><br />Spectrum for all if the "all" can do it. Otherwise, the consequence will be "Spectrum for none."<br /><br />northenderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13141836235767085752011-11-27T20:49:53.220-08:002011-11-27T20:49:53.220-08:00Melissa and Charlie.
I'm glad you are both on ...Melissa and Charlie.<br />I'm glad you are both on the committee. Could you post the dates, times and locations of the meetings. I think I read that the meetings are public? Can you confirm that too?<br /><br />I'd really like to find out how any school doing cluster grouping will track results, confirm whether the change to cluster grouping does in fact have better outcomes for all students, and report those findings to interested parties/the community/ stakeholders. That was an assurance to the CAST team at Lawton (by Ms. Helm, who is no longer there) -- that outcomes would be measured and assessed to make sure the change didn't hurt Spectrum students and that it benefitted non Spectrum students. I just don't see how they could possibly measure that, and if so, how it would be reported.<br /><br />I'm seeing at Lawton exactly what I feared. A cluster of Spectrum kids in a class who walk to math (provided they have math that day b.c if the other class/es have a field trip or MAP testing or an Assembly, math just doesn't happen on that day) so above grade level curriculum is deliverd there. Outside that W2M though, those are also the kids who get finished w/ their work in other subjects way before their grade level peers and are simply told to read independently or draw or something until the period is over. It's a shame really and certainly not in the best interest of those students. <br /><br />Thanks for your advocacy.<br /><br />-Spectrum momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73134295744361661122011-11-27T18:44:54.800-08:002011-11-27T18:44:54.800-08:00It's still not clear to me how the new cluster...It's still not clear to me how the new cluster model at Wedgwood is being implemented. Are Spectrum students going to be grouped for math and LA in a walk-to-math or walk-to-LA type arrangement, but integrated for all other subjects? Or is the grouping within the classroom and they stay with their class, but get differentiated work?<br /><br />Do other students get grouped with Spectrum identified students based on MAP scores? If so, then why go through the hoops for Spectrum placement? If students have been grouped in the high ability group (but haven't tested for Spectrum) can they continue on that pathway for middle school?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-29521815002792492672011-11-27T18:15:36.247-08:002011-11-27T18:15:36.247-08:00TraceyS,
Your post above makes it clear that the ...TraceyS,<br /><br />Your post above makes it clear that the situation is getting no better, and probably even worse (with all the community sniping). Seeing this materialize is no surprise to those of us who have seen similar problems over the years, but if Chris is still hellbent on moving forward with the destruction of Spectrum at his school, things definitely need to be escalated. At the very least to Phil, but maybe directly to Enfield as well (who will push it back to Cathy Thompson). Bob Vaughan has been steering clear of this for some reason. He was at the Nathan Hale meeting, but he doesn't seem to want to get involved, hence my suggestion to go up the other chain of command.<br /><br />Keeping the discussions one-on-one is a great strategy to minimize the pushback. It's easy to hold parents back one at a time, much less so if you can get yourselves organized and work together. Finding everyone who is affected and frustrated can be difficult, but use email, this blog, whatever it takes. If you can get parents together for a large in-person meeting (like a conference room at the Wedgwood library, for instance), all the better. This happened a few years back when Eckstein was proposing similar changes, and parents were eventually successful in putting a halt to most of it. Chris Cronas was at Eckstein at the time. Coincidence? <br /><br />If you do schedule an in-person meeting, please post time and place here on the blog.<br /><br />Is anyone organizing the parents/families opposed to these changes? Specifically, does anyone have an email list of frustrated parties? It's hard to find everyone, which is why Melissa's idea of pushing harder to get on a PTA meeting agenda is great. At that meeting you need to get contact info for everyone you can; make it your mission. Sadly, things like this never seem to get fixed unless there's enough organized pushback. Even then, there's no guarantee, but at least you stand a chance.<br /><br />As for costs, it doesn't cost any more to implement Spectrum than it does to blend the kids across all classrooms. I believe Dr. Brulles research actually shows that implementing self-contained gifted or cluster grouping is <i>cheaper</i>. If I remember correctly, it's because equal distribution requires significant differentiation, which requires special training and probably even IAs in many cases to get reasonable outcomes for the kids.<br /><br />Please keep us informed, this is worth fighting for.dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89466059184720439132011-11-27T14:51:53.303-08:002011-11-27T14:51:53.303-08:00Anne, I just asked about your school because I was...Anne, I just asked about your school because I was fairly sure that no SPS high school has a grade barrier to being in an honors classroom or AP classroom. I just wanted to make sure.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66226594210579557812011-11-27T09:17:44.281-08:002011-11-27T09:17:44.281-08:00Whatever happened to the promises made by Bob Vaug...Whatever happened to the promises made by Bob Vaughan and MGJ, that the APP split would expand advanced learning to formerly underserved communities and bring these programs closer to home? I would like to see him address that question in a public forum.<br /><br />Would someone please investigate and report on the quality of the Spectrum program at Aki Kurose middle school?<br /><br />-signed, South End ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79565446530995522362011-11-27T01:23:01.010-08:002011-11-27T01:23:01.010-08:00EM only goes to 5th gr. In SPS kids in AL programs...EM only goes to 5th gr. In SPS kids in AL programs are done with it in 3rd or 4th gr. It teaches kids how to read English and do basic math and gives them some weird choice of methods. It gets you beyond 94% of functioning adults.<br />It's fine.<br /><br />Not a Rocket ScientistAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76906305864435488932011-11-26T21:45:57.617-08:002011-11-26T21:45:57.617-08:00Melissa,
My son goes to Seattle Prep. We are not ...Melissa,<br /><br />My son goes to Seattle Prep. We are not Catholic, but it is strong academically, close to our house, and half the cost of the secular private schools. We also selected it because of their traditional math curriculum. Interestingly, I was talking to the Math department chair and he said that they had tried Discovery math a few years back and found that it wasn't very good, especially for advanced learners, so they dropped it.annehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06891398273398141400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77811120893050318962011-11-26T20:08:25.548-08:002011-11-26T20:08:25.548-08:00Two quick points of clarification about APP:
To t...Two quick points of clarification about APP:<br /><br />To the best of my knowledge, the so-called 'APP funds' mentioned in earlier comments don't make it to the classroom. The district gets money each year for the advanced learning office. My understanding is that pays for Dr. Vaughan's salary and his staff, and much of it goes towards administering the AL tests every year.<br /><br />APP kids do not get anything more expensive in their classrooms or anything mandated by way of teacher training.<br /><br />Re: Hamilton. I believe the problems at Hamilton right now are not with APP, but with teaching and leadership. There is/are some very questionable behavior and choices being made by some APP teachers at HIMS. The mediocrity and bad judgment on display would be unfair and inappropriate for ALL kids, not just APP. I imagine these teachers weren't fantastic two years ago, either, when they were teaching gen ed.suep.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17281578510716234624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68699197043290889392011-11-26T15:21:54.937-08:002011-11-26T15:21:54.937-08:00re: "You need to meet the needs of all those ...re: "You need to meet the needs of all those students. It makes sense for the teachers in those classrooms to have some gifted training"<br /><br />Of course there are APP qualified students in Spectrum. But there are also APP qualified students in general ed classrooms too. Since we don't require gifted teacher training for everyone, why use it to limit Spectrum?<br /><br />I don't buy the excuse that Spectrum can't be set up because of costs needed for teacher training.<br /><br />-Spectrum access for allAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26572310146000052912011-11-26T15:16:13.112-08:002011-11-26T15:16:13.112-08:00I love, love, love the idea of APP for aptitude, s...I love, love, love the idea of APP for aptitude, spectrum for high performers and ALO for all. My child qualifies for APP, but we opted to stay in spectrum because she isn't motivated enough (or developmentally ready) to work 2 full grade levels ahead. Spectrum is not a great solution for us, as she neither gets the special education she needs nor works at her comfort level. Of course, I understand that you can't please everybody either....juicygoofyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05735795370601846385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2171957104477733292011-11-26T15:07:18.778-08:002011-11-26T15:07:18.778-08:00re: "Spectrum students don't come in conv...re: "Spectrum students don't come in convenient 30-packs, schools have to juggle class sizes and assignments to form the classes..."<br /><br />That is true for every student group. Regular ed kids, fourth graders, kindergarteners don't come in convenient packs of 30 yet the school must provide for their needs!<br /><br />Seems to me Spectrum is always cut because it's too small, or limited because it's too big!<br /><br />They say we've never had genuine Spectrum in the south end, because there aren't enough kids to fill a classroom, but without any genuine Spectrum program to aim for, kids don't get tested! It's an endless cycle. Somehow it got started in other schools, why not here? Does anyone really think our kids don't have the brainpower for Spectrum just based on their home addresses?<br /><br />In regular ed and APP some classrooms are multiple grade-level. That may be needed for Spectrum classes too.<br /><br />I just don't want to see that tired old excuse used whenever admin wants to cop out from serving this group of learners!<br /><br />-Spectrum access for allAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22488315291147902842011-11-26T13:40:52.030-08:002011-11-26T13:40:52.030-08:00Sorry, that was my post above.Sorry, that was my post above.TraceySnoreply@blogger.com