tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post7429044332407005284..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Math Adoption Threatens Math Waiver Schools Experiencing SuccessMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25127381498512153282014-05-23T20:02:43.979-07:002014-05-23T20:02:43.979-07:00I watched part of the math discussion on TV last n...I watched part of the math discussion on TV last night and the hope was articulated that teachers would have the materials in their hands by the second week of school. <br /><br />I'm sorry. Why can't the schools have it out two weeks before the first day of school. We are so busy. We always start out behind and many of us stay behind because we are always catching up. Can't the hours of some of these District employees be flexed in order to get schools and teachers ready to go by the first day of school? Every custodian that has worked summers at my school has time to help. Nobody is there to see it, but they have time on their hands.<br /><br />The tail wags the dog in every way in education.nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61982300621689002642014-05-23T12:23:26.129-07:002014-05-23T12:23:26.129-07:00While I dislike discovery math and those kind of a...While I dislike discovery math and those kind of approaches I understand<br />what they are trying and failing to accomplish.<br /><br />While in school my dyslexia keep me from being successful in most subjects that required me to communicate in written words.<br /><br />Math was much simpler to work with, but without real world hands on experience in applying what I was learning my interest began to fade.<br /> <br />Then I attended a shop class run by my favorite teacher ever, Mr Lauber. Shop class was filled with wonderfully dangerous machines that could inflict sever damage in milliseconds to any operator not in the moment.<br /><br />Mr lauber controlled access to the machines using math as the key to access..yes to use various machines you must have first passed a math test tailored to each type of machine. Some test required simple manipulation of measurements or maybe some geometry, but the holy grail of all machines was the CC milling machine. (Think of it has a machine that can make anything if you know it's secrets).<br /><br />BTW C stands for computer and in the 80s that was magic.<br /><br />So what stood in the way of me and the CC? it was trigonometry and calculus and programming. Those who made it to the level of CC operator could walk out of high school and into any professional machine shop and get a high paying job! Like at Boeing and many did just that.<br /><br />My interest turned out to be what was inside the magic box that controlled the machine which meant more math, but not everyday math it was a new type of mathematically controlled language.<br /><br />Not all students see value in math <br />at first and some may never unless there is a bridge built between the theory and reality. In my opinion that's the key to success and it can't by performed in a book! any book!<br /><br /> It takes a special kind of teacher.<br /> <br /><br />--MichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18205359262909829852014-05-22T16:31:56.122-07:002014-05-22T16:31:56.122-07:00Isn't it appalling that it took a community me...Isn't it appalling that it took a community member to do for the Board work that staff should have done?<br /><br />As for oversight, I think the certain board member(s) calling for an emergency board work session in Feb., due to concerns about staff manipulation of the MAC process, was immensely helpful. <br /><br />It was some or all of the grass roots majority coalition members that called for this . <br /><br />JoanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74490028018924155522014-05-22T15:35:08.149-07:002014-05-22T15:35:08.149-07:00Joan, what a lot of effort on your part, thanks. ...Joan, what a lot of effort on your part, thanks. <br /><br />One thing I want from the Board is just some healthy oversight and maybe some skepticism. I hear it in Sue Peters and Sherry Carr; I'd like to hear it from others.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72819416960476873922014-05-22T15:16:12.304-07:002014-05-22T15:16:12.304-07:00I was slated to testify last night, but was not ab...I was slated to testify last night, but was not able to due to an family emergency.<br /><br />Basically, my testimony cited assertions made by Shauna Heath at May 12 Curriculum and Instruction meeting (I was present, taking notes) versus what my own research revealed. I found major discrepancies. My research is based on talking to both publishers, and talking to a district that has adopted MIF and is very happy with it.<br /><br />Below, list of what Shauna asserted, followed by facts.<br /><br />1.Envision Math professional development is one day, and is free.<br />2.MIF will not sell their curriculum unless the school district purchases eight days of professional development services per teacher. <br />3.MIF does not have a train-the-trainer model.<br />4.A full adoption of MIF will cost $6.4 million for materials and services (materials for 1000 teachers and 30,0000 students; eight days of training services for 1000 teachers). [The Board Action Report puts the cost at $6.8 million.] <br />5. For a full implementation of MIF, SPS will incur a cost of about $2.5 million to pay teachers $40 for each hour of professional development over the eight days of MIF professional development.<br />6. A full adoption of Envision Math will cost $4.268 million (materials for 1000 teachers and 30,0000 students; one day of professional development)<br />7. MIF will not negotiate on the price<br /><br />The facts:<br /><br />1.MIF does not require eight days of professional development (written commun,from MIF)<br /><br />2.Four days of MIF training should be sufficient (written commun.from MIF)<br /><br />3.MIF has a train-the-trainer model in 2nd year. (written commun. from MIF)<br /><br />4.Envision free ½ day is for “activation.” (oral commun. from EM)<br /><br />5. Districts often purchase up to two additional days of EnVision Math training, at a cost of about $120 per teacher (one trainer, max 30 teachers, $3500 per day). That would be $120x1000x2 = $232,000 additional cost for two days of PD for 1000 teachers. (oral commun. from EM)<br /><br />6.It should not be necessary to purchase any additional manipulatives for MIF beyond what the schools already own (written communication from MIF) (written commun.from MIF)<br /><br />I have indirect information that MIF trainers suggesting that per-day fee for MIF trainers may be significantly less EnvM's fee. <br />We need to see if outside trainers or MIF trainers would consider groups much large than 30 teachers per trainer. If so, the PD cost would come way day. There is a lot of room for getting great MIF training at a much lower rate than EnvM charges.<br /> <br />Taking this information into account, plus information from on-line publisher's catalogues and price lists, and with a little help from publishers to figure out what items are essential, I came up with a dual adoptoin cost scenario. I sent this to the board. I find that Dual adoption is not much more costly than single adoption of EnvM.<br /><br />Joan S.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60323165259569934062014-05-22T14:27:53.782-07:002014-05-22T14:27:53.782-07:00"One speaker, a teacher on the MAC, said she ..."One speaker, a teacher on the MAC, said she thought a "vocal minority" on the committee might have coached some comments sent in because they "sounded the same."<br /><br />When any group of people is interested in making their thoughts known and counted it is perfectly reasonable to forward/cut/paste/quote from opinions that are the same as your own. Not everyone has time to petition the government or, in this case, SPS by composing a thoughtful email in their own words.For those who work, have kids to raise, or have lives, the process of sending a "ditto" email to those in charge is meant as a way of saying "I agree with this. Count me as well."<br /><br />Remember, again, that to review the math materials you had to be available during school hours and travel to a regional school or JSCEE. This ruled out the possibility for working families to weigh in. Yes, I am dismissing the notion that having it available at a single library (Douglass-Truth) constitutes true availability to most people.<br /><br />So, what does a working parent do? They listen to their friends or PTA Board members that did have time to review the materials and voice support one way or the other. They then echo these sentiments to make sure that their vote was counted as well.<br /><br />Change.org, Petition.org, etc. are all based on the idea that it is not feasible for every single person who has an opinion on a topic is able to write a comprehensive appeal to the powers that be. What people can do is gather knowledge the best they can and add their name onto a list to show support in numbers.<br /><br />THIS is why you have emails or comments that sound the same. Would it be better to have 258 unique responses? Of course. But this is not how real life works. People let the district know their choices in the best way they could at the time. This should not invalidate their input.Kathleen V.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5802558714122666792014-05-22T11:26:50.128-07:002014-05-22T11:26:50.128-07:00Thank you, Patrick, for describing exactly what is...Thank you, Patrick, for describing exactly what is wrong with Everyday Math. For years English major administrators, like Terry Bergesen, pushed text based math textbooks. There was a love for “real world problem solving,” which sounded good to many parents. Unfortunately, this approach did not teach math. The tutoring market surged. <br /><br />Math is a big weakness for Seattle Public Schools. It is one reason so many parents choose private schools.<br /><br />It does not have to be this way. Parents sick of tutoring should be vocal in favoring a better curriculum like Math in Focus. It will benefit students left behind by Everyday Math.<br /><br />S parent<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52734196068632336432014-05-22T11:00:59.861-07:002014-05-22T11:00:59.861-07:00Ah, OK, thanks!!! I knew I must have been missing ...Ah, OK, thanks!!! I knew I must have been missing something.robynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52204723636062058852014-05-22T10:57:15.590-07:002014-05-22T10:57:15.590-07:00Curious, the item was Introduced, not voted on.
T...Curious, the item was Introduced, not voted on.<br /><br />There are still two weeks left to talk to the Board about this issue. Sadly, there are no community meetings on Saturday but there are three next Saturday. <br /><br />If you want a different outcome than the one presented by staff, e-mail the Board, schoolboard@seattleschools.org.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17032836394179410222014-05-22T10:31:38.116-07:002014-05-22T10:31:38.116-07:00OK, sorry if I am missing it, but what was the out...OK, sorry if I am missing it, but what was the outcome of the vote on Envision? It sounds like it was a good discussion, but did the Board cave in the end? I hope not based on these comments, but I've seen lots of good questions come from the Board and then they just vote through what staff wanted.<br /><br />What happened?curiousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50725078759719928492014-05-22T10:31:32.917-07:002014-05-22T10:31:32.917-07:00Kathleen V, thank you very much for that post! And...Kathleen V, thank you very much for that post! And I since I have lately not been shy about expressing my displeasure with some board members, I want to say how happy I am to have Peters, Peaslee, and Carr exposing the problems with this process and fighting for better math. I still hope we can have MiF for the sake of all our kids.<br /><br />-sleeperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56974531466982465732014-05-22T09:56:06.778-07:002014-05-22T09:56:06.778-07:00Another Opinion posted: The Singapore approach, an...Another Opinion posted: <i>The Singapore approach, and others that are favored by the "Where's the Math" crowd don't align not only in content but in rigor. Parents like it because they can understand it, and it is not confusing.</i><br /><br />To most people, a math book that is not unnecessarily confusing is a <b>good</b> thing. Singapore's explanations are clear and concise. These are important virtues. They save everybody's time and allow the books to be understood by students whose English is shaky and do not have English-speaking family at home. Singapore is <b>more</b> rigorous than Everyday Math, not less. Everyday Math writes lots and lots of words describing math, but doesn't have the student actually <b>do</b> very much of it. It's math as a spectator sport. They make a pass through a topic but don't worry at all if the students don't get it because it's poorly presented and not practiced, because they present it again (equally poorly) a few more times. Singapore Math teaches math techniques that <b>should</b> be presented, but never touched on in Everyday Math. Like long division, for instance, not taught at all in Everyday Math. Okay, calculators are ubiquitous now, but long division is a great way to teach multiplication and subtraction and estimating as well, and being able to do those things rapidly in one's head is a valuable skill. A person skilled in estimating can dismiss an entire approach while someone who is not skilled is still getting their calculator out.<br /><br /><i>Wouldn't it be nice if the world of real problems were like that.</i><br /><br />Solving real-world problems is not helped by a vague and confusing textbook that doesn't offer enough practice problems.<br /><br /><i>The last 15 years of what is called derogatively "reform math" has actually improved our performance in the international and national assessments</i><br /><br />Citation please?<br /><br /><i>I don't understand the logic of moving backwards so problems are simple to solve in textbooks, more like "when we were kids."</i><br /><br />Math at the K-12 level has not changed much in the last 50 years or so. There's zero reason to throw out old textbooks like last season's fashions, especially when the new books are worse at actually teaching.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53670660945733418432014-05-22T09:30:54.530-07:002014-05-22T09:30:54.530-07:00Here's are typical problems taken from Singapo...Here's are typical problems taken from Singapore 5A (5th grade):<br /><br />Ali sold 5 oven toasters and 3 rice cookers for $500. If a rice cooker cost $20 less than an oven toaster, find the cost of a rice cooker.<br /><br />The ratio of Bill's money to Henry's money was 5:6. After Bill spent $800 on a TV set, the ratio became 1:2. How much money did Henry have at first?<br /><br />Please do share with us if you can find more rigorous word problems in a 5th grade US math textbook.Linh-Conoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25787474719439716882014-05-22T09:29:20.247-07:002014-05-22T09:29:20.247-07:00Kathleen V., thank you very much for the comprehen...Kathleen V., thank you very much for the comprehensive post.<br />Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30498122363926427922014-05-22T09:26:20.020-07:002014-05-22T09:26:20.020-07:00"Peaslee, as well, is justifiably incensed at..."Peaslee, as well, is justifiably incensed at the way that community input was set-up to be roundly dismissed if it didn't agree with the staff recommendations."<br /><br />I will have to watch the tape because I left after the Board Comments. I missed Peaslee at the last Board meeting but apparently she was quite tart from the dais. Last night was no exception during her Board comments on Wilson-Pacific. <br /><br />One speaker, a teacher on the MAC, said she thought a "vocal minority" on the committee might have coached some comments sent in because they "sounded the same." Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49480716212586915372014-05-22T09:17:23.845-07:002014-05-22T09:17:23.845-07:00@another opinion
You obviously are not familiar w...@another opinion<br /><br />You obviously are not familiar with Singapore Math. Its complex multi-step problems are more rigorous than any problems in the US math textbooks. This is why Singapore is especially popular with our APP parents.Linh-Conoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32131633400769668822014-05-22T09:06:53.609-07:002014-05-22T09:06:53.609-07:00I was at the meeting last night. I testified and s...I was at the meeting last night. I testified and stayed 'til the bitter end of the Director comments/questions. If you were not able to be there or to stay until 8:00, here are some takeaways:<br /><br />1. Sue Peters is spot-on in her comments and detailed analysis of the BAR presented. She was deliberate in flushing out the red herrings, the inconsistencies, and the hypocrisy that was written into the process. (Carr can honestly complement them on their clear follow through on process but the issue is the process being flawed from the start). If you watch nothing else in the video of the meeting, watch Peters.<br /><br />2. McLaren has seen, firsthand, what a difference Singapore has made to schools in her region. I am eager to send off the newest data from K-5 STEM @ Boren which will offer a much needed additional piece of info on how well Singapore has closed achievement gaps in diverse populations. Granted, it is only 2 years of data but it is impressive.<br /><br />3. Peaslee, as well, is justifiably incensed at the way that community input was set-up to be roundly dismissed if it didn't agree with the staff recommendations.<br /><br />4. The district attempted to mandate its desires into every school in the district with EDM. Look how that turned out.<br /><br />5. Dual adoption eliminates the inequity caused by schools, unfunded by the district, making up the difference through PTAs. Schools, principals, and communities decide which approach works best for their community and population and the district funds the decision. Period. Equality in access to the highest quality programs -- whether you believe this is MiF or enVison.<br /><br />6. It was interesting to note the lack of specific financial data on a lot of the questions posed about enVision adoption. In contrast, they seemed to have every damning number against MiF on the tips of their tongues. Too bad their numbers were easily rebuffed by better researched reality.<br /><br />7. Schmitz Park will need to put together their own comprehensive information on the status of Singapore and their community over the past years. Staff is anxious to only include the last 3 years (stated by them) because the data is impacted by the fact that nearly 600 students are now crammed onto a campus designed for 217. They seem very excited to play off any plateau or decline on Singapore and not the outrageous conditions under which students are being asked to learn. They say they will have apples to apples comparisons to other schools and their numbers. I have a hard time believing that they will find another school with 3x as many students as the school was designed for with, what 50% of students operating out of portables for years. Entire cohorts whose whole elementary experience has been in portables? Whatever they submit will need to be closely scrutinized for bias. Seriously.<br /><br />8. Apparently, $1M of the cost of MiF can be easily cut due to the fact that the district already owns 95%+ of the manipulatives needed for MiF.<br /><br />9. So, the MAC was told the cost (incorrectly apparently) but then told to not consider it. Perhaps I watch a few too many law shows on TV but this seems to clearly be a way to influence the committee while still being able to say that they didn't. <br /><br />10. The district, at the start of this process stated that they didn't want cost to be a factor in selection. Yet, here we are, arguing cost as justification to dismiss a reasonable compromise.<br /><br />OK, I've gone on long enough. I do want to say that I honestly respect all of the work that the MAC put in. They did the best they could with what they were given. Unfortunately, what they were given (60% weight on strict CCSS alignment) is misguided.<br /><br />Bravo if you got to the end of this ridiculously long post.Kathleen V.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88040915529596937252014-05-22T08:57:27.833-07:002014-05-22T08:57:27.833-07:00And...2005-2006 was the first year Schmitz Park us...And...2005-2006 was the first year Schmitz Park used Singapore Math.<br /><br />Data Sorting Wonk<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7012064790372999742014-05-22T08:54:06.825-07:002014-05-22T08:54:06.825-07:00Below you can see the effect of increasing school ...Below you can see the effect of increasing school size on the data at Schmitz Park. 94.5% - 5th graders passed the MSP (Math) in the year 2010. After that the school had a huge influx of students that were new to Singapore Math. New teachers also arrived concurrently. So, sort your data by "continuing students."<br /><br />Grade 5 Schmitz Park<br />Year <br />2005-06 WASL <br />75.5% <br />2006-07 WASL <br />75.4% <br />2007-08 WASL <br />87.8% <br />2008-09 WASL <br />86.2% <br />2009-10 MSP <br />94.5% <br />2010-11 MSP <br />83.6% <br />2011-12 MSP <br />84.5% <br />2012-13 MSP <br />79.2% <br /><br />Data Sorting Wonk<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48532961242531813612014-05-22T08:46:40.643-07:002014-05-22T08:46:40.643-07:00The 'Where'sThe Math' crowd also incl...The 'Where'sThe Math' crowd also includes a very large number of university and college professors who have seen a decline in student math preparation for years now. The uncomfortable truth is that students are far less prepared for college level math than they used to be.<br /><br />SeenItAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24763036935644233842014-05-22T08:36:10.684-07:002014-05-22T08:36:10.684-07:00In the board meeting last night, McLaren mentioned...In the board meeting last night, McLaren mentioned that Schmitz Park has grown quite a bit in the past few years, with lots of new teachers. She wondered if an influx of new students and teachers could impact the data. Anyone have a comment about this? I don't know anything about Schmitz Park. <br /><br />Loved Sue Peters' remarks about the purpose of education. <br /><br />parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2180964302618583402014-05-22T07:51:36.398-07:002014-05-22T07:51:36.398-07:00The Schmitz Park math data is interesting. There i...The Schmitz Park math data is interesting. There is a low blip in 2011 for 3rd graders, then in 2012 for 4th graders, then slightly lower pass rates for 5th graders in 2013. It was as if one cohort of students was not doing as well on average. Not sure how to interpret the data...<br /><br />JMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48458322711595721672014-05-22T07:35:59.414-07:002014-05-22T07:35:59.414-07:00"Parents like it because they can understand ..."Parents like it because they can understand it, and it is not confusing. Wouldn't it be nice if the world of real problems were like that." <br /><br />Did you mean this to be condescending? Because it feels that way. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85085593207131527822014-05-22T06:26:29.694-07:002014-05-22T06:26:29.694-07:00@WallyMom
I was referring to the other article Me...@WallyMom<br /><br />I was referring to the other article Melissa posted about alignment (actually had Envision at 34%). I understand that the common core is not a curriculum.<br /><br />Standards set the learning targets and the Common Core also sets up progressions to theoretically sequence those targets. The CCSS-M also outline standards for mathematical practice which are more affective aspects of doing math outside of specific content objectives. There are a lot of opinions about the "best" way to teach math, and this blog seems heavily in favor of a Singapore approach. My point is that the students and teachers are going to be evaluated on a different set of content objectives than are covered in Singapore. <br /><br />My opinion is that math instruction needs to give teachers an opportunity to guide students to an understanding of those objectives (not all that different from current Wa. State standards actually, in terms of content with some things moved and others de-emphasised)- more importantly to becoming mathematically literate is the practice of doing math. <br /><br />The Singapore approach, and others that are favored by the "Where's the Math" crowd don't align not only in content but in rigor. Parents like it because they can understand it, and it is not confusing. Wouldn't it be nice if the world of real problems were like that. The last 15 years of what is called derogatively "reform math" has actually improved our performance in the international and national assessments (all be it incrementally). I don't understand the logic of moving backwards so problems are simple to solve in textbooks, more like "when we were kids." <br /><br />The data on Schmitz Park, and Alki (which also uses Singapore) both show a downward trend over the years since they were adopted. Highline has an uptick but there is not enough data to establish a trend, and they also have a different population that started quite a bit lower; perhaps all they needed was 5 days of professional development?<br /><br />Some people just get math, many more need conceptual development and time to work on novel and engaging application problems. And yes, they do need to be fluent in the basic facts to do that, but math can be so much more than just that.<br /><br />-another opinionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82261378081865326772014-05-21T23:37:54.652-07:002014-05-21T23:37:54.652-07:00Actually I think Banda set the right tone at the e...Actually I think Banda set the right tone at the end of the discussion, acknowledging the work of staff AND board members. And stressing the most important end result is what is best for students. He's not my way or the highway. Neither is he Caspar the friendly ghost.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.com