tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post7466547875790725649..comments2024-03-28T23:38:22.511-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: DiversityMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28558099834887173272011-09-15T01:55:19.600-07:002011-09-15T01:55:19.600-07:00Nick -- I felt that I followed your post above rig...Nick -- I felt that I followed your post above right to the last sentence, and then was lost. What balkanizes? It sounded to me like you thought a P3 program sited somewhere in South Seattle was a good idea? Did I misread you?Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55075002854950932042011-09-13T22:50:59.291-07:002011-09-13T22:50:59.291-07:00Ben, you seem to be making the error in logic that...Ben, you seem to be making the error in logic that equates low test scores with low school quality. They are not synonymous and may not even be associated. The schools have no control over the level of preparedness of the students who enroll.<br /><br />School quality is a function of how well the school serves the students who enroll. It is not a function of the share of students who demonstrate proficiency on standardized tests. Of the factors that lead to that outcome, the school-based factors are overwhelmed by the home-based factors.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9806173664021198232011-09-13T20:41:11.399-07:002011-09-13T20:41:11.399-07:00In this state it is possible to set up program tha...In this state it is possible to set up program that is state funded, insists on a direct parent involvement, and offers classes that are small and responsive to individual student needs. These programs, where they exist are usually very diverse (in every way) and are ideally suited to situations where industrial type education usually fails. They go buy the name Parent Partnership Programs (P^3) and are covered by a very innovative state law WAC 392-121-188 and RCW 28A.150.305. I do not know of all the reasons why we do not have such a program in south Seattle, but one is that the administration fears that it will result in an exodus from already under enrolled schools. This type of leadership Balkanizes.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290974805669189652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22577916539676587042011-09-13T19:58:11.288-07:002011-09-13T19:58:11.288-07:00SST: the arrangement you propose -- of two progra...SST: the arrangement you propose -- of two programs, split about 50 50 in the school is what I would love to see -- but I agree that it will take an administration committed to serving BOTH programs well -- AND creating cohesion in the entire student body (not an easy task, perhaps) to have even a chance of making it work.<br /><br />And "another parent" -- you said: "But on this blog, there is a repeated refrain: 'I love diversity but I hate to go to school with it. My kids are too good for it, but I like the food.'"<br /><br />could you point me to a post on this blog that holds this position? -- much less repeated ones? Most people I know would love to have their kids in diverse schools -- but only if the academic quality of the school, the course offerings, schools activities, etc. work.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14627087224748737562011-09-13T18:32:47.647-07:002011-09-13T18:32:47.647-07:00Actually South-end-parent, my kids now attend ver...Actually South-end-parent, my kids now attend very diverse schools and you have no idea the area I live in. And yes, I know tons of S and SE families. But on this blog, there is a repeated refrain: "I love diversity but I hate to go to school with it. My kids are too good for it, but I like the food."<br /><br />-another parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7814893959531489982011-09-13T18:23:53.984-07:002011-09-13T18:23:53.984-07:00Well yes Jan of course we "want" all sch...Well yes Jan of course we "want" all school to serve all kids in their neighborhood. That would be ideal and as I posted earlier it is a very realistic and attainable goal in homogeneous suburban neighborhoods where everyone is pretty much the same. But in the very diverse SE Seattle schools that has not been the case. RBHS serves a majority of low income, minority students so that's what they focus on. Advanced and motivated students have not, understandably, been well served at RBHS because the school focuses on the serving the majority. Could that change? Could RBHS meet everyone's needs? Maybe? If the administration were willing to do it and if, say, 1/2 the school were IB, and the other 1/2 a traditional comprehensive HS with a focus on intervention and support services. Thou I'm not sure how the average (at grade level but not IN or remedial or IB) student would fare? <br /><br />Personally, I like the idea of the STEM school serving the motivated and advanced and RBHS focusing more on serving struggling students. I would outright oppose that though if students were tracked and assigned to one school or the other, but that is not the case. SE Seattle students have the choice of attending STEM or RBHS. It's all up to them and I like that.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13209088171515876792011-09-13T18:19:00.877-07:002011-09-13T18:19:00.877-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73159280011008438022011-09-13T16:25:17.854-07:002011-09-13T16:25:17.854-07:00Ben,
Thanks for making your points. I would care...Ben,<br /><br />Thanks for making your points. I would care to state that what is taking place in classrooms is also influenced by administration and this can have a powerful effect.<br /><br />Seattle's failings for SE schools:<br /><br />#1 Refusal to follow policy and provide effective interventions for struggling students. Instead the Board changed the policy to one Holly Ferguson wrote, which is meaningless.<br /><br />#2 Failure to allow teachers to use the Classroom Disruption law. RCW 28A 600.020 part 2=<br /><i><b>Any student who creates a disruption of the educational process in violation of the building disciplinary standards while under a teacher's immediate supervision may be excluded by the teacher from his or her individual classroom and instructional or activity area for all or any portion of the balance of the school day, or up to the following two days,</b> or until the principal or designee and teacher have conferred, whichever occurs first. Except in emergency circumstances, the teacher first must attempt one or more alternative forms of corrective action. In no event without the consent of the teacher may an excluded student return to the class during the balance of that class or activity period or up to the following two days, or until the principal or his or her designee and the teacher have conferred.</i><br /><br />#3 Failure to allow schools to openly use effective materials. The board approved math materials that do not have enough practice or much explicit instruction. Readers Workshop and Writers Workshop are also not doing the job but are better than the math situation.<br /><br />In regard to SPS ... and EDM: there are lots of coaches in a system that produces very poor results.<br /><br />Auburn School District also uses EDM but allows schools to get waivers to use other materials.<br /><br />Auburn's demographics are very similar to Seattle's and yet in the last 4 years Auburn has made great growth in Math and Reading while Seattle has not.<br /><br />For examples of two schools with very high poverty in Auburn that produce great results see Gildo Rey and Pioneer elementary schools.<br /><br />#4 Carla Santorno and Susan Enfield were completely ineffective CAO's. If only they had been paid based on performance.<br /><br />==========<br /><br />Gildo Rey uses the latest version of Singapore Math - "Math in Focus" and has for the last two years.<br />See their <a href="http://reportcard.ospi.k12.wa.us/wasltrend.aspx?groupLevel=District&schoolId=1404&reportLevel=School&orgLinkId=1404&yrs=&gradeLevelId=5&waslCategory=18&chartType=1" rel="nofollow">MSP scores HERE</a> for grade 5 Low Income students.<br /><br />Here is Gildo Rey's :<br /><a href="http://reportcard.ospi.k12.wa.us/Summary.aspx?groupLevel=District&schoolId=1404&reportLevel=School&orgLinkId=1404&yrs=2010-11&gradeLevelId=5&waslCategory=18&chartType=1&year=2010-11" rel="nofollow">demographic profile </a><br />80.4% Low Income<br />42.7% Hispanic<br />33.3% White<br />35.3% Transitional Bilingualdan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2433036917763744652011-09-13T15:09:55.847-07:002011-09-13T15:09:55.847-07:00Although I usually agree with you Charlie, I have ...Although I usually agree with you Charlie, I have to pushback on the first 3 points of your last post.<br /><br />1) the mistaken belief that there is something wrong with these schools<br /><br />Do you really think everything is OK in the SE quadrant? It seems to me based on any reasonable measure test scores, graduation rates, local enrollment etc. they are not serving their current population. You can argue about the solution to the issue but there is definitely a problem.<br /><br />2) the mistaken belief that the mere presence of these families will improve the schools (through some un-explained magical process)<br /><br />I'll throw out one hypothesis. Affluent children tend to do better in school. If you throw enough of them into the building you'll raise the buildings overall score regardless of whether the prior population is affected. But on top of that, affluent families donate more money and volunteer time to their schools. I'd also argue that its possible you can change the environment of the classes with enough of a new population. BUT based on my experiences growing up in a much more integrated school system than Seattle's all of those effects don't necessarily translate to better outcomes for minority/lower income students.<br /><br />3) the mistaken belief that school quality is determined by the demographics of the enrollment<br /><br />In general doesn't the data directly support this? Wealthy school districts have better outcomes. <br /><br />BenBenjamin Leishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10974191081762367425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4643433216346445842011-09-13T14:45:08.868-07:002011-09-13T14:45:08.868-07:00Careful there, another parent, you sound like you ...Careful there, another parent, you sound like you are both broad brushing south end parents and that you know some (any?) of us. I could just as easily surmise that you don’t value diversity by the area YOU are living, and don’t know much about it if your school has so few non-white children that they can keep them in a single class.another south end parentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88339771236687812072011-09-13T13:46:01.491-07:002011-09-13T13:46:01.491-07:00At my kid's school, mostly white, the few mi...At my kid's school, mostly white, the few minority students are always placed in the same class. It is the placement policy of the school, and everybody likes it. Minority students are never the ONLY minority student in their class, they get to see other kids like themselves and not be singled out. There's no special tracking of the other "majority" students, so it has always been a good mix of kids. Sometimes a minority parent has a reason for a different placement, that too is honered. The problem with the southend parents is that they see no value in diversity and do not see how their child could ever be taught in a diverse environment. They think their kids are too good for it. What they would like is a segregated class at a minority school, one dedicated to advancement for their child only. That ain't going to happen, get out your pens to write that big, fat check to the private school. Good riddance.<br /><br />-another parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84519189368495632762011-09-13T13:37:07.951-07:002011-09-13T13:37:07.951-07:00I don't know, SST. On the one hand, I think y...I don't know, SST. On the one hand, I think you correctly identify that it can be/is difficult to meet the needs of two very diverse demographics in one school -- but in the end, isn't that what we want? Don't we want the same proportion of SE kids (ALL SE kids -- not just those who come in at high levels) in programs like IB -- regardless of whether they then go on to Yale or South Seattle Community College? <br /><br />Frankly, I wonder if Franklin isn't the model here (because based on the August state figures, I think they may be materially more successful than Garfield with black and FRL kids on EOC tests. <br /><br />The good thing (at least I think it is good, but I have no actual experiance with IB) about IB is that it provides instant credibility in terms of course content and rigor -- to a school where, because of low attendance and test scores, things like "honors" designation -- or even AP courses -- might not have the same weight. <br /><br />But -- I agree that since IB doesn't start until 11th grade, the focus for the first two years at RBHS needs to be on getting kids in a position where they can succeed in IB classes when they get there -- and if that takes WAY more staff, smaller classes, extra school hours, weekends, summers, starting at Aki in 8th grade, whatever -- then we should be doing that. Not all RBHS kids may want to be in IB, just like not all Ingraham kids do. But many will, or should. I just don't want to turn RBHS into a totally "remedial" school. That would be an unfair "program" for an attendance school -- unless we are going to give up on RBHS as a comprehensive high school altogether, assign ALL of its kids to Franklin -- and make it an option school, and to me, that seems like a big loss, a big defeat.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58999760756543890082011-09-13T09:20:55.091-07:002011-09-13T09:20:55.091-07:00I like where Nick is going with schools meeting th...I like where Nick is going with schools meeting the needs of the local families, and I think in homogeneous suburban communities that's a realistic and attainable expectation. However, I think it would be most difficult to do in a neighborhood such as SE Seattle where there is such a great amount of ethnic and cultural diversity, a huge disparity in socio economic levels, in student ability levels, and so on.<br /><br />I think that is part of the reason that the district opened the STEM school at Cleveland (which BTW now has a waitlist). SE Seattle families complained for years that none of the schools in SE Seattle were able to meet the needs of advanced or motivated students. Now, finally, there is a viable school option for these students in SE Seattle.<br /><br />RBHS however still serves the same demographic it always has, which includes a majority of low income, struggling students. Instead of turning RBHS into an IB school, which will further marginalize these students, I think they should embrace them and focus on meeting their specific needs. They should provide plenty of intervention and support services -like extra class time, smaller class size, homework clubs, tutors, etc. They should focus on increasing their graduation rate, bringing down their suspension rates, and preparing kids for life after high school (career and college).<br /><br />I think having the two schools serving such different demographics, while somewhat divisive, is probably more effective at meeting student needs. They can focus on their "type" of student, and provide what is needed for them, which I doubt would happen (at least effectively)if all schools had to be all things to all people. We tried this experiment with Special ed inclusion (all schools serve all sped kids no matter their needs) and it has been a total disaster.<br /><br />For those who want a more middle of the road, comprehensive high school experience, their is always Franklin in S. Seattle. They seem to be doing well by most accounts (though not sure how easy it is to get into Franklin if it's not your "neighborhood" designated school).anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69099727340479030992011-09-13T08:27:09.562-07:002011-09-13T08:27:09.562-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24447729000744929732011-09-13T07:50:02.338-07:002011-09-13T07:50:02.338-07:00Charlie, you wrote "Can you imagine how it wo...Charlie, you wrote "Can you imagine how it would be recieved if a cadre of eight middle-class White moms enrolled their children in the kindergarten at Emerson and expected the school to change to accomodate their image of how the school should be? I think it would be perceived as arrogance and it would be perceived as insulting."<br /><br />What message gets sent out in predominantly white schools where well meaning principals and teachers spread a very small group of minority kids and FRL kids among the classroms in each grade to provide "balance" and "diversity" in the classroom? So a child who is darker than most may have certain needs (more academic rigor, teacher-student personality match, etc.), but that child's individual needs get trumped by the fact that we need "diversity" in the classroom, so the only thing that is considered is the color of his/her skin, FRL status, etc. for placement year after year.<br /><br />-parent of place holdersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10963106141826992222011-09-12T22:44:09.778-07:002011-09-12T22:44:09.778-07:00Syd, I think you're referring to All Together ...<b>Syd,</b> I think you're referring to <a href="http://books.google.com/books/about/All_together_now.html?id=9GwxXpOP738C" rel="nofollow">All Together Now</a> by Richard Kahlenberg. He says that schools with FRL rate less than about 40% improves results for poor kids without harming results for middle class kids.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47017812297320617702011-09-12T22:42:59.984-07:002011-09-12T22:42:59.984-07:00Nick is right on the point of including community ...Nick is right on the point of including community in the direction a school should take especially if it is not working well. This, however, is a big sentence:<br /><br />"If it cannot meet the needs of the local students, a new school that does needs to be established."<br /><br />How do we do that? How do we decide what works for the most students? Is a focus that important or solid academics and support for the school?Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88267818521575885842011-09-12T22:24:29.351-07:002011-09-12T22:24:29.351-07:00I am very encouraged that we are still concerned a...I am very encouraged that we are still concerned about diversity in south Seattle schools. If Rainer Beach HS and other schools in the SE want to reflect the diversity of the 98118 zip code a great deal will have to change. At the present time most of the families in my neighborhood simply do not even think about public schools. If this is to change, it would require leadership that will strive to an honest and open discussion. At the present time the school administration seem to be more interested in dictating “solutions’, while no attempt is made to reach out. As a starting point, I would suggest that the success of a school be measured at how well it reflects the neighborhood it is in. If it cannot meet the needs of the local students, a new school that does needs to be established.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16290974805669189652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71741629581456891022011-09-12T21:39:30.938-07:002011-09-12T21:39:30.938-07:00I second the notion of including disability in the...I second the notion of including disability in the count of diversity. Currently, disabled students continued to be shipped to everywhere. Garfield exports nearly all its students with disabilities somewhere else. Secondary students with autism, mild or severe, are not served at Washington nor anywhere in the south end. Highest priority seems to be other students. And diversity is reduced.<br /><br />-parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1989926493926403122011-09-12T21:32:08.323-07:002011-09-12T21:32:08.323-07:00How many levies in Seattle have ever failed? Darne...How many levies in Seattle have ever failed? Darned few, in my experience.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39038606923289317602011-09-12T19:56:11.780-07:002011-09-12T19:56:11.780-07:00Jon, I would hope that even parent/guardians with ...Jon, I would hope that even parent/guardians with all their kids in private schools would STILL fully support public schools. One can only hope...seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61914833878517918802011-09-12T19:46:12.857-07:002011-09-12T19:46:12.857-07:00Mostly agree with what you said, Charlie, but one ...Mostly agree with what you said, Charlie, but one thing to add. I do think that, if we could attract some of the kids back from private school back into the public school system, that probably would help all the schools in Seattle. Not only would some of the money those parents currently spend on private school tuition go to the public schools in the form of donations, but also there would be more political support for levies and other sources of additional funding for Seattle's public schools.Jonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60115380442536199092011-09-12T19:12:15.839-07:002011-09-12T19:12:15.839-07:00Another fun fact , or maybe an opinion masqueradin...Another fun fact , or maybe an opinion masquerading as fact, I don't know - 40% of teacher don't plan to teach more than 5 years. <br /><br />fsuspc.fsu.edu/media/trends_in_higher_educ.pdfSydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08715140880268606856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58669497765444920372011-09-12T19:06:23.131-07:002011-09-12T19:06:23.131-07:00Charlie,
I do agree that schools that typically se...Charlie,<br />I do agree that schools that typically serve low income students have a hard time accepting the advocacy of more affluent families. In fact, given my experience at Graham Hill, I would say many of our families are if not encouraged to leave, not encouraged to stay. Fewer and fewer middle income families return each year. <br /><br />On the other hand, I think I have seen some studies that showed having a maximum set percentage of low income children in a school does increase the success of those low income students. In other words, not having a majority of low income students. I'll have to look for that again. <br /><br />I thought the minority to majority bias of the old system was a good strategy. <br /><br />WV: fackfun- I love fun facts, like telomeres get shorter as you age.Sydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08715140880268606856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73611723664804591372011-09-12T17:59:24.328-07:002011-09-12T17:59:24.328-07:00I think I know what Nick was writing about.
There...I think I know what Nick was writing about.<br /><br />There is a strong belief - I don't have the data to either support it or refute it - that White, Asian, and affluent Black families in Southeast Seattle commonly choose schools other than their neighborhood attendance area schools. Consequently, the enrollment at the neighborhood schools in that part of town are not representative of the community but over-represent <br />African-American and Latino students and students from low-income families.<br /><br />There is a strong myth that spreads the belief that if affluent and highly-involved families (the ones who don't enroll their children in these schools) would stop leaving the neighborhood schools, then the schools would *magically* improve. This myth is, of course, absurd and has no basis in reality or history. It presumes a number of things which simply are not in evidence, such as:<br /><br />1) the mistaken belief that there is something wrong with these schools<br /><br />2) the mistaken belief that the mere presence of these families will improve the schools (through some un-explained magical process)<br /><br />3) the mistaken belief that school quality is determined by the demographics of the enrollment<br /><br />4) the mistaken belief that these schools will welcome the constructive criticism of affluent families<br /><br />5) the mistaken belief that the schools would decide to provide new services to meet the academic needs of the high performing students if they would enroll<br /><br />Can you imagine how it would be recieved if a cadre of eight middle-class White moms enrolled their children in the kindergarten at Emerson and expected the school to change to accomodate their image of how the school should be? I think it would be perceived as arrogance and it would be perceived as insulting. I wouldn't expect them to be able to transform the school. Tell me where this has worked. Should we review the history at Madrona?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.com