tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post7483923247120675921..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Criticize Privately, Praise PubliclyMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51673128187468563432011-03-24T12:29:25.477-07:002011-03-24T12:29:25.477-07:00I hate to say it -- but Joanna is right. When the ...I hate to say it -- but Joanna is right. When the Board extends contracts, compliments the Superintendent in public, approves everything she asks for and is doing -- there is no other conclusion that can be drawn, other than that the Superintendent is doing what the Board wants. And it makes it darn hard then to pull off a firing "for cause" -- which is part of the reason we couldn't, and didn't. <br /><br />Some of the Board has never seemed enthusiastic about the last administration (Kay and Betty). A couple seem to have come around, or are doing do (Michael and Sherry). <br /><br />Steve seems clueless to me, and Harium's new total silence leads me to believe that MGJ must have taken the remote control for his unit with her when she left -- or maybe she was in such a hurry that she just didn't teach anyone else how to use it.<br /><br />We maybe now have a "working" coalition of 4 directors -- 3 of whom are not up for election, and thus are clearly not "reformed" only for the campaign period. <br /><br />Let's hope they can get something accomplished.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3812436344334859532011-03-24T10:13:56.354-07:002011-03-24T10:13:56.354-07:00Ok, yes the Board should ask questions and if ther...Ok, yes the Board should ask questions and if there are math errors they can certainly point it out. Again, after a staff presentation they certainly can in public direct the Superintendent to provide additional follow up material to them and to the public and express their expectations for the future. Remarks should be directed at the Superintendent. <br /><br />But if, in fact, staff continue to fail to provide the information in a timely matter, and the Board gives the Superintendent good to great marks, then all are acting in accordance with the Board's desires. Again, in the case of Potter, the Board did not want to hear or see what was happening. And, when Potter was directly testifying to misdeeds in their face, they smiled and praised the man. I'm not saying that there are not sometimes incompetent staff, but I think often hard-working and smart staff are doing their best to present the material in a way that they have been directed, not necessarily in the manner they would present it. Often this is due to both the politics of the Board, their relationship with the Superintendent, and the agenda of the Superintendent. <br /><br />Don't let the Board off here. They have the power to insist on a certain level of performance by the Superintendent and the Superintendent's staff. They hire and evaluate the Superintendent. If the Board is doing their job well and in a meaningful way for the public good, what I would consider real public criticism of staff beyond requesting more information should not occur. The recent ratings of the now-gone Superintendent reveal that she was accomplishing the goals that were important to the Board.joannanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67825858604517049952011-03-23T21:54:10.615-07:002011-03-23T21:54:10.615-07:00I heard some constructive criticism from DeBelle t...I heard some constructive criticism from DeBelle tonight. Nobody ran crying to the little boy's room.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85045779110731861032011-03-23T21:31:44.112-07:002011-03-23T21:31:44.112-07:00I spoke to Director DeBell about this tonight and ...I spoke to Director DeBell about this tonight and he saw it the same way I did. I think that language will be dropped from the final policy.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26527009797624288722011-03-23T19:57:18.670-07:002011-03-23T19:57:18.670-07:00Duggan Harman is a good example of "I do not ...Duggan Harman is a good example of "I do not have the data at this time". Though we should feel good that Bob Boesche has great confidence in him and respects him.<br />Also good to know that after 2 or 3 minutes Sherri Carr and Debell were smitten with Boesche. What a bunch of Bolongna. Boesche Respects Duggan for not knowing the data that he his hiding? It looks like more of the same.KGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120359550438503094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89034307008490751972011-03-23T17:01:51.384-07:002011-03-23T17:01:51.384-07:00Grace, it appears that we have different definitio...Grace, it appears that we have different definitions for the word "criticism".<br /><br />You wrote: "<i>People, Criticism and Honest Feedback are not the same. Honest feedback do Publicly (can be straightforweard, blunt, real, but still respectful), Praise Publicly, Criticism (in its true meaning) Private.</i>"<br /><br />If criticism - in what you believe its true meaning to be - is something other than honest feedback, then I don't think it is appropriate in private either.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55900354033514725262011-03-23T15:52:08.452-07:002011-03-23T15:52:08.452-07:00Ok, no public criticism. Let's call it public...Ok, no public criticism. Let's call it public constructive feedback. I still don't think the board is capable of doing any of this publicly or privately with any effectivenes even if we built a $100+ million (think JSCEE) woodshed at taxpayer's expense.<br /><br />If the business of Silas Potter didn't see the light of day and was not displayed so very publicly, our former Super would still reign. <br /><br />In all seriousness, there is something wrong about the Board avoiding confrontation and playing nice instead of applying due diligence and doing its job. How long do we sit on something not quite right? Until we have a corpse that stinks before we out it publicly? Does it make better to watch the public umbrage and flogging of our ex Super then? Was it better for her? I may not like her policies, but I did not want her humiliated like that. If transparency means a bit of public criticism or constructive feedback to save our next Super, I am all for it. <br /><br />- The way we go on, NIxon would have finished his 2nd termAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59263157168224471572011-03-23T14:17:33.108-07:002011-03-23T14:17:33.108-07:00People, Criticism and Honest Feedback are not the ...People, Criticism and Honest Feedback are not the same. Honest feedback do Publicly (can be straightforweard, blunt, real, but still respectful), Praise Publicly, Criticism (in its true meaning) Private.Gracenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82011400243849362952011-03-23T12:15:07.902-07:002011-03-23T12:15:07.902-07:00We need people in charge who are competent, honest...We need people in charge who are competent, honest and responsive to students, parents & teachers and a board that keeps them that way. Then everyone gets along. <br /><br />Organizationally, if a board and a CEO are not in agreement, then changes usually occur until they are in agreement. If they fall out of agreement again, then, again, changes will occur in the composition until there is agreement. Sometimes that agreement manifests itself in a culture where oversight boards fail to due their due diligence and rubber stamp everything, follow up on nothing, and screw the "shareholders". <br /><br />As soon as someone starts talking trash - and yes that includes politely chastising folks in public about being late with deliverables - or whatever the nature of the issue, then unless there are 4 votes behind that methodology at a time when leadership can change by that vote or the voters boot the board out and try to get 4 votes in their favor, it's not going to be seen as productive to make criticisms in public thereby self-marginalizing. <br /><br />Usually that person or those people will be elected out of office as being out of line and that is whether they are right or wrong. <br /><br />It's quite a conundrum. <br /><br />I think more audits would be more productive than hoping the board or admin are going to become transparent to benefit the consituency. For one, their constituents are not necessarily the schools, students, parents, teachers or whoever. It's more often the campaign donors and their agendas. <br /><br />The advocacy and activist groups could perhaps band together to organize and fund more audits and perhaps leave the puff pieces and all lightweight stuff to others who want to make sure the outward appearances are good no matter what is actually happening internally.Kate Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00850521672242690825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6483476167729094702011-03-23T10:48:21.817-07:002011-03-23T10:48:21.817-07:00I had seen both Darlene Flynn and Irene Stewart sp...I had seen both Darlene Flynn and Irene Stewart speak pretty sharply to staff about the quality of their work and their missed deadlines. Their demeanor struck me as unprofessional and harsh. They didn't start out that way, but after the staff bumbled and stumbled everything for years it became exasperating.<br /><br />More often then not Director Stewart would just do things for herself.<br /><br />Seriously, the staff couldn't add a column of numbers and get the right sum. Examples abound. Checking their math almost always revealed an error.<br /><br />I remember when the Student Learning Committee had to review the decision to split middle school APP the review had to be extended over a number of meetings and several months because the staff wouldn't show up with the promised data. When the staff finally did produce the data it didn't support the decision. Out of simple frustration with the staff's incompetency - as much as anything else, the decision was turned back.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39471417888809882002011-03-23T10:03:50.930-07:002011-03-23T10:03:50.930-07:00Anyone want an example to evaluate? Look at the Fe...Anyone want an example to evaluate? Look at the Feb 16th board meeting, at the Board comment part. (Let's see, public testimony, then superintendent update and then board comments?) Peter has strong words and calls out both MGJ and DK for not providing the board with the Capacity Management report they expected in January. Don actually hustled up to the podium to address him (in Don's typical convoluted style). Sherry backed Peter up and pointed out that there are more critical capacity issues coming. <br /><br />Unfortunately, the delay of the report meant that the transition plan vote in January was not informed by all the data. So at some level, this was too late. But at another level? I thought was well spoken. What do you think? He called out both top execs by name, but was concentrating on issues and performance, not personality. <br /><br />Outcome? Well, both Maria and Don were fired two weeks later. How's that for accountability? (ok, a little joshing, but anyone who thinks the firing was simply because of Potter should watch this. It is clear the board was not happy with overall performance of MGJ or DK.) <br /><br />And the March 16th Capacity Management workshop: well, it seemed to me that there was a bit more of an attempt by staff to explain their figures. I still find their figures perplexing (as did the board) but was it a start? <br /><br />Other examples. Sherry said recently at a budget workshop -- "The way you drew this graph is misleading. It looks like X is held constant when it isn't. I will show you later how we present that sort of information at work." Public criticism? Appropriate or not? Effective? I haven't seen the follow-up graph to know for sure, but when and if we do see the follow-up we will have an indication. <br /><br />That is exactly the sort of public demeanor I expect from the board. I have heard stories of past board members berating staff in public. I never witnessed it, but I heard it from many different people. So that criticize vs praise line does seem a little too far. All the other guidelines put together imply "Don't belittle people, either in private or public." So I am not sure what the intent of that particular line about criticize privately means.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1029275090057563082011-03-23T10:01:29.999-07:002011-03-23T10:01:29.999-07:00I think Christopher's example is pretty good, ...I think Christopher's example is pretty good, although I would not have added the "I thought our request was clear." dig.<br /><br />Here's another example:<br />At the most recent quarterly Strategic Plan Update Mr. Bernatek made a presentation on the District Scorecard and the School Reports. In that presentation he said that the District would update the FAQs for the School Reports and make some other editorial changes to the explanation of the statistic "Students making gains on State tests". He also said that the District would correct the mis-count of advanced learners. That was in December. It's now March and the corrections have not been made. I think it would be perfectly appropriate for a Board Director to say: "We were told that these changes would be made promptly, but they have not been made yet after more than three months. That falls short of our expectations for action, candor, and follow through. When can we expect these promised changes?"<br /><br />That's criticism - it sure isn't praise - but it isn't abusive. It isn't a "dressing down". It isn't even a reprimand.<br /><br />Maybe I don't have the same sort of pride that other people have. I feel no shame about my failings. I don't enjoy talking about them, but the truth is the truth and everyone who needs to know when I have messed up probably already knows that I have messed up. It won't be news to them.<br /><br />Moreover, if others hear of my mistakes then they may learn from my failure and avoid the errors that I made. It can benefit the group.<br /><br />We are all struggling with similar challenges and none of us is always right.<br /><br />If Dr. Goodloe-Johnson's Seattle misadventure were made into an opera it would be a tragedy and her tragic flaw would undoubtedly be her hubris. She simply could never admit any failure or mistake. She insisted that the Southeast Education Initiative was a success. We cannot learn from our errors if we do not admit them.<br /><br />When a teacher engages students in discussion does the teacher never suggest that a student's reasoning was less than perfect or even tell a student that they are just plain wrong? Of course they do. And they do it right in front of the whole class. It's not traumatic. It's common. Are teachers supposed to publicly praise poor student work and then, privately, advise the student that four times two is eight, and not ten as the student stated in class?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69201007383697920142011-03-23T09:54:49.741-07:002011-03-23T09:54:49.741-07:00I think Charlie has hit the nail on the head with ...I think Charlie has hit the nail on the head with this statement:<br /><i> If the Board prohibits itself from making criticisms in public and requires only praise in public, then the Board will never be seen by the public as doing their job of holding the superintendent accountable.</i><br />That's exactly it, exactly what should happen.someonenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75767853208848574212011-03-23T09:39:46.396-07:002011-03-23T09:39:46.396-07:00Oh for gawd sake, the super manages a $500 million...Oh for gawd sake, the super manages a $500 million school budget. On her salary as a public employee, she can afford some big girl panties. Yes, that means she can face some constructive criticism publicly if earned. <br /><br />CEO gets taken to task by their shareholders when they perform poorly. I want a leader who can handle this difficult job and yes, deal with the slings and arrows pubicly and privately. I want her to walk into RBH and face the kids, students and their parents. I want her to listen to them and hear their voices. She is going need to some steel there.<br /><br />--wanted: some muscle not muffleAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83422480563423328532011-03-23T09:34:12.233-07:002011-03-23T09:34:12.233-07:00I concede. Christopher's example of criticism ...I concede. Christopher's example of criticism does seem like it would be appropriate in a public forum.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-23274725086350116652011-03-23T09:04:06.250-07:002011-03-23T09:04:06.250-07:00I agree with Charlie, absolutely.
I also believe...I agree with Charlie, absolutely. <br /><br />I also believe that some of the problem with making "praise publically, criticize privately" is shown in this comment thread: no one is crystal-clear what exactly may constitute criticism. I do NOT want my elected Board erring on the side of not voicing a concern in case it may be construed as criticism.JvAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13300544674853649714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16204076877091118792011-03-23T08:35:28.421-07:002011-03-23T08:35:28.421-07:00I did and I will (again):
When a member of staff ...I did and I will (again):<br /><br />When a member of staff does not have data available that the Board has requested (in a timely manner), I believe it is ok to say:<br /><br />"I am disappointed that I do not have the data the Board requested in order for us to make informed decisions. I thought our request was clear."<br /><br />No finger pointing. No berating. Just a simple statement of fact. The message gets received and the public knows the Board is holding staff accountable.<br /><br />I don't see that as too hard to do instead of the Board shrugging it off or apologizing for asking questions (as Kay and Sherry are wont to do).Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10531605781215771027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79215826133088378462011-03-23T08:26:54.132-07:002011-03-23T08:26:54.132-07:00Sorry Charlie, you responded to a post I deleted, ...Sorry Charlie, you responded to a post I deleted, because I realized I just repeated the same thing I posted earlier.<br /><br />I understand what you are saying but I don't agree. Personally, I appreciate criticism, especially when constructive. It guides me in my work. However, I appreciate that criticism being delivered to me privately. I would not like it if my boss came to me in front of all of my co-workers and criticized my performance. No matter how constructive. Or polite. <br /><br />I think the superintendent, administration, JSCS staff, and teachers all deserve the respect of being reprimanded, or criticized privately. <br /><br />That does not mean they shouldn't be held accountable, publicly. That doesn't mean the board can't demand answers to their questions and that those answers be delivered publicly. That doesn't mean that they should quietly accept it when they are given the run around. What it means (at least to me) is that criticism should be done privately.<br /><br />Maybe I'm not truly understanding though. Can you give an example of when criticism, publicly, would be appropriate and effective?anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-799634342198805682011-03-23T08:19:40.657-07:002011-03-23T08:19:40.657-07:00I'm with Charlie on this one. The SI works fo...I'm with Charlie on this one. The SI works for the board and the board works for the public. the logical extension of this policy would be to only allow the public to praise, but not criticize the SI. How would the public testimony at board meetings look then?<br /><br />Like it or not, the SI is in a fairly visible an somewhat political position. I think the SI should expect to deal with a certain amount of second-guessing, armchair-quarterbacking, and GASP even criticism - just as any mayor/governor/president does.ArchStantonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10746480698492983438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53653534545178346222011-03-23T08:02:12.145-07:002011-03-23T08:02:12.145-07:00Peon, I don't think you are seeing this in the...Peon, I don't think you are seeing this in the same context as I see it. It is not comparable to a teacher being corrected in front of students. If the Board publicly expresses any disappointment with the performance of the superintendent and the staff, who, in that scenario, is analogous to the students? The public?<br /><br />The relationship between superintendent and the public is not analogous to the relationship between a teacher and the students. There is no hierarchy that would be subverted or discipline that would be undermined.<br /><br />Let's be very clear about these relationships:<br /><br />The superintendent works for the Board and the Board works for the public.<br /><br />The Board's job is to hold the superintendent accountable for his or her performance. That includes both praise for good work and criticism for poor work. Again, criticism is not abuse; it is merely an unfavorable evaluation. If the Board prohibits itself from making criticisms in public and requires only praise in public, then the Board will never be seen by the public as doing their job of holding the superintendent accountable.<br /><br />The public needs to be able to confirm that the Board is doing their job just as the Board needs to be able to confirm that the superintendent is doing his or her job. This rule would prevent that.<br /><br />Again, criticism is not abuse. It is not humiliating. It is not damaging to people's psyche or motivation. It is, rather, an integral part of improving performance.<br /><br />Where in the world did so many people get the idea that criticism is somehow necessarily abusive or humiliating? And, if it is, then the Board should not do it in private either. There is no call for abuse at any time.<br /><br />The public is entitled to know the Board's evaluation of the superintendent's work - whether is meets, exceeds, or does not meet their expectations.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-96096432204837962011-03-23T07:22:11.720-07:002011-03-23T07:22:11.720-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16064439609519576322011-03-23T06:26:46.842-07:002011-03-23T06:26:46.842-07:00This sounds an awful like the prescriptive cut and...This sounds an awful like the prescriptive cut and paste deformer handouts that have become the litanies of "teacher training".Salandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61655727610836629902011-03-22T23:46:58.110-07:002011-03-22T23:46:58.110-07:00No, but I will single out the over-priced part tim...No, but I will single out the over-priced part timer Holly Ferguson for perpetuating this dreck.<br /><br />grumpyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9350484838748292562011-03-22T23:27:44.488-07:002011-03-22T23:27:44.488-07:00Even if the Board decides they don't want to c...Even if the Board decides they don't want to criticize the Supe or staff in public (and in all fairness, that should be their call), it should <i>not</i> be codified into policy.<br /><br />As Charlie said, it basically amounts to censorship of the Board.none1111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81868154087179804972011-03-22T22:09:59.036-07:002011-03-22T22:09:59.036-07:00I think some of us here have lost it, as well.
I...I think some of us here have lost it, as well. <br /><br />I think points a through j are fantastic and exactly what they should have been doing all along.<br /><br />It is petty to single out one point for such ridicule. <br /><br />All strong and well functioning families, businesses, and organizations do this - it is just common sense.wsnorthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03795943009142572757noreply@blogger.com