tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post7694394464387534467..comments2024-03-18T16:51:10.406-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Legislatively SpeakingMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81731386894620373282010-02-22T11:33:26.833-08:002010-02-22T11:33:26.833-08:00"A teacher never puts a test in front of a st..."A teacher never puts a test in front of a student that is beyond his/her skill level and tells them to "guess." And yet, SPS asks students to do exactly that three times per year."<br /><br />Because MAP is not a classroom-based assessment. Anyway, it's not as if it had *nothing* except beyond-level material. The MAP contains below-level, on-level, and above-level material. Students who aren't doing well won't even *see* the above-level stuff for more than a few questions! The only students who get a lot of above-level questions are those who have already answered most of the on-level ones correctly, and answer quite a lot of the above-level ones right as well. What in heaven's name is wrong with that? And why are you not equally upset that students who do poorly are assessed chiefly on material that was taught in previous years, rather than what is being taught them this year? <br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54337770018257275692010-02-22T09:16:43.865-08:002010-02-22T09:16:43.865-08:00To extend my homework analogy - a little more thou...To extend my homework analogy - a little more thoughtfully:<br /><br />The judge did not say "you got the wrong answer." What she said was that they should read the whole question and show their work to get credit.Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73125833033095909462010-02-22T07:50:02.577-08:002010-02-22T07:50:02.577-08:00Wseadawg,
Here is the latest
on Harium's Blo...Wseadawg,<br /><br />Here is the latest<br /><br />on Harium's Blog<br /><br /><a href="http://harium.blogspot.com/2010/02/stem-at-cleveland.html" rel="nofollow">READ THIS.</a>dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4090079155371537592010-02-22T07:47:14.698-08:002010-02-22T07:47:14.698-08:00none1111, you write that
"Whether or not a to...none1111, you write that<br />"Whether or not a topic topic has been covered in class, you cannot presume that students are guessing. "<br />But we can't know if they guessed. They have a one-in-four chance of getting ir correct.<br />A high MAP score might indicate high levels (less chance of guess work leading to high score) but a low MAP score tells us little or nothing - student could have just hit keys.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41772217798871393832010-02-22T03:29:06.582-08:002010-02-22T03:29:06.582-08:00grousefinder said: "If the exam is ever used ...grousefinder said: "If the exam is ever used to evaluate teachers, then they can easily teach old-fasioned problem solving skills after the first test to demonstrate significant growth between Fall and Spring.<br /><br />I believe that the MAP test could possibly be the undoing of EDM in Seattle." <br /><br />Interesting analysis. I certainly would not advocate for evaluating teachers based solely on test scores, but anything that might encourage teachers to use better materials and methods than EDM might not be all bad. Of course most teachers are not willing or even capable of veering far from the official path (and might be strongly discouraged from doing so), which would leave us with a similar state of haves and have nots that exists now. But over time, I agree that it could help poke (more) holes in EDM.<br /><br /> grousefinder contined "On a final note...the MAP test pushes above-grade-level mathematical problems at test takers. Of course this promotes guess work, which is counter to all best practices. A teacher examines only that which has been taught or expected. A teacher never puts a test in front of a student that is beyond his/her skill level and tells them to "guess." And yet, SPS asks students to do exactly that three times per year."<br /><br />It seems like you're missing the entire point of this type of test. Whether or not a topic topic has been covered in class, you cannot presume that students are guessing. There are lots of students, especially in a sequential topic like math, who are far ahead and far behind the others. And this is crucial information.<br /><br />To accurately understand kids' true achievement levels, and following directly from that, <i>whether or not they are learning anything in class</i>, you need to use a norm-referenced assessment like the MAP. Criterion-referenced assessments, like the WASL are useless for this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39415469726261599842010-02-21T23:09:08.381-08:002010-02-21T23:09:08.381-08:00Does Harium read his own blog for God's sake? ...Does Harium read his own blog for God's sake? <br /><br />The anti EDM/Discovery comments are like 99% to 1%. Anything possible to toss that crap is what he should be embracing if he truly cares about the needs and desires of the people he supposedly represents. <br /><br />But, maybe he's an insider now, has learned the ropes, and likes the privileges of incumbancy, so he'll go along with the Board more often. Sure seems like he's becoming more like the others instead of the other way around. Sad.wseadawghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08750439461734046035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88556946578275143642010-02-21T21:39:10.089-08:002010-02-21T21:39:10.089-08:00Charlie - the "official truth" is you ca...Charlie - the "official truth" is you can't qualify for language arts spectrum unless your math scores (both on the WASL and SPS administered advanced placement test) are also spectrum level. <br /><br />They are clear on this policy. Whether you think it makes sense or not is an entirely different question.GreyWatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15177134279070087546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11437009688351725332010-02-21T20:04:03.220-08:002010-02-21T20:04:03.220-08:00StepJ ... try this thought....
The board does not...StepJ ... try this thought....<br /><br />The board does not wish to re-vote and consider all the evidence with the public watching. Last year 2009 the combined math achievement gaps for 4, 7, 10th grade Black students averaged 51.5% a new high. If they vote again how can anyone fake it this time, with the entire city watching for who will cast the 4th vote to shoot this sorry proposal down?<br /><br />How many will vote for a high school program that is said to be vertically aligned with the k-8 program that helped produce the largest average math gap for Black students ever at <b><i>51.5% </i></b>...?<br /><br /><a href="http://soundmath.wetpaint.com/page/Results" rel="nofollow">CHECK Scores for Seattle and Bethel</a><br />both adopted EDM in 2007, both use Connected for middle school but Bethel started using Discovering in 2006 for High school.<br /><br />The solution for the board seems to be come-up with the latest fairy-tale reason not to vote.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2669234433253484462010-02-21T20:03:48.549-08:002010-02-21T20:03:48.549-08:00Another reason not to appeal: set a good example f...Another reason not to appeal: set a good example for the children.<br /><br />DO YER BLEEPIN' HOMEWORK!Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8014155275305765172010-02-21T19:56:22.894-08:002010-02-21T19:56:22.894-08:00Hey, I was going to post the chance for seattle to...Hey, I was going to post the chance for seattle to learn a great new word, REMAND but I see Dan beat me to it.<br /><br />I can add that Harium's was the third community meeting I have attended since the math verdict, and that he was the first to actually answer some questions about the case. Carr and Maier (yes, professional legal expertise) simply refused to discuss it. This probably has less to do with Harium's bravery (or his original no vote on Discovery, which BTW he CLEARLY backed away from) than the occurrence of the executive session in which they were undoubtedly given their talking points.<br /><br />OOOOHH, WV: repideny<br />...we followed the process...<br />...we followed the process...<br />...we followed the process...Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67774667397607596062010-02-21T19:40:10.854-08:002010-02-21T19:40:10.854-08:00Overall, it doesn't make sense.
You have Boar...Overall, it doesn't make sense.<br /><br />You have Board Directors with some very impressive professional success (as in you could not succeed without some smarts) that claim bafflement at the ruling of the Judge.<br /><br />The ruling seems pretty straight to the point that more personal whim than data was considered in making the decision. It can not be compared to Bellevue that has taken nearly a year of testing texts with a sample of their student population or Issaquah that has taken nearly the same period of time to do inquiry and comparison. The same case would be difficult to show that they have been arbitrary or capricious in their decision.<br /><br />So what is the truth of a seemingly intelligent and professionally successful BOD not understanding the Discovry ruling?StepJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11375599834945035820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13167736120421871872010-02-21T19:06:57.776-08:002010-02-21T19:06:57.776-08:00Melissa, Here is the real irony about the MAP Tes...Melissa, Here is the real irony about the MAP Test. It is primarily a skills test that students trained in the EDM program are not likely to do well on, given the emphasis on group work, manipulatives, etc. I have seen the 5th grade test administered (even found errors) and noted that the exam is basically an old-fashioned "plug and chug" math exam...up pop the equations or word problems...then solve with standard algorithms. It is really not designed to test an EDM student, which would explain the dismal district-wide scores. The more MAP is used, the worse EDM will look.<br /><br />If the exam is ever used to evaluate teachers, then they can easily teach old-fasioned problem solving skills after the first test to demonstrate significant growth between Fall and Spring. <br /><br />I believe that the MAP test could possibly be the undoing of EDM in Seattle.<br /><br />On a final note...the MAP test pushes above-grade-level mathematical problems at test takers. Of course this promotes guess work, which is counter to all best practices. A teacher examines only that which has been taught or expected. A teacher never puts a test in front of a student that is beyond his/her skill level and tells them to "guess." And yet, SPS asks students to do exactly that three times per year.grousefinderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01396904078230280660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39166518421549564882010-02-21T18:52:53.032-08:002010-02-21T18:52:53.032-08:00There appear to be a number of instances now when ...There appear to be a number of instances now when the "official truth" is diverging from the actual truth.<br /><br />The "official truth" is that the District and the Board seriously consider public input. The actual truth is that they do not. The question for Harium - and the other Board Directors - is why no public input was included in the package provided to the Court that contained everything the Board considered when making their decision.<br /><br />The "official truth" is that MAP will not be used for placement. The actual truth is that it will.<br /><br />The "official truth" is that middle school students can qualify for Language Arts Spectrum without qualifying for Math Spectrum. Apparently the actual truth is that they cannot.<br /><br />Someone needs to answer for and reconcile each of these gaps between the "official truth" and the actual truth.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19274939665103580252010-02-21T18:47:20.323-08:002010-02-21T18:47:20.323-08:00"He said the issue was that there are statewi..."He said the issue was that there are statewide consequences to this ruling and that Issaquah and Bellevue (or Lake Washington?) are doing math adoptions and this ruling is troubling." <br /> What? He was elected by Seattle voters to serve students in Seattle. What does other districts have to do with it? Does this give the impression that people, entities outside of Seattle are influencing our board? I'm seeing red flags here.udubgradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396977601578114190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33149431350496887352010-02-21T18:41:12.089-08:002010-02-21T18:41:12.089-08:00Ah, I see.
A teacher told me recently that his/he...Ah, I see.<br /><br />A teacher told me recently that his/her second grader had to do a math problem about one billion. One billion. He/She said, "I was really startled because my kids are at hundreds and I couldn't understand what she was to do." He/She said that there is a lot of guessing going on with MAP. Needless to say, this teacher is not feeling that the feedback from MAP is helping.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45784457580990024052010-02-21T18:41:04.905-08:002010-02-21T18:41:04.905-08:00Ah, I see.
A teacher told me recently that his/he...Ah, I see.<br /><br />A teacher told me recently that his/her second grader had to do a math problem about one billion. One billion. He/She said, "I was really startled because my kids are at hundreds and I couldn't understand what she was to do." He/She said that there is a lot of guessing going on with MAP. Needless to say, this teacher is not feeling that the feedback from MAP is helping.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18806192185608531272010-02-21T18:36:55.580-08:002010-02-21T18:36:55.580-08:00Melissa, I know the answer to this:
"Also a...Melissa, I know the answer to this: <br /><br />"Also about math, apparently at least some schools are NOT doing 6th grade math placement tests for 5th graders."<br /><br />Some middle schools are going to use the MAP scores. This is contrary to the MGJ's explicit statement that the MAP would not be used for placement. The score for honors placement will likely be 230 (8th grade on a nationally-normed scale).grousefinderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01396904078230280660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69736176173266258242010-02-21T17:21:24.913-08:002010-02-21T17:21:24.913-08:00Regarding 6th grade math placement, I recall getti...Regarding 6th grade math placement, I recall getting something from either our elementary school (or maybe it was at the Hamilton middle school tour) along the lines of "things will be different this year, but we can't tell you how." <br /><br />We were told it wouldn't be the same test as last year, but there would be some combination of yet to be determined testing/score evaluation to determine 6th grade math placement. I assumed they want to use MAP scores but don't have it entirely figured out yet.<br /><br />Also interesting, even though math is no longer part of middle school spectrum (it's just SS/LA), math WASL scores are still part of the criteria for admission to the program.GreyWatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15177134279070087546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16012581603189185372010-02-21T16:55:27.567-08:002010-02-21T16:55:27.567-08:00The following is truly unbelievable as I had no id...The following is truly unbelievable as I had no idea that:<br /><i><b>"He stated that the Board had met in Executive Session on the issue and would make an announcement on Tuesday or Wednesday as to what they would do."</b></i><br /><br />Because I was at DeBell's meeting on Saturday from 9 AM to 11 AM and he had very little understanding of what the judge's ruling entailed. <br /><br />What goes on in an executive session?<br /><br />Harium does not understand the ruling, DeBell does not understand the ruling.... who presents the board with what is happening .. Howdy Doody?<br /><br />Unbelievable .. They get a one sentence order and they can't figure it out.<br /><br />ORDER ... IT IS HEREBY ORDERED:<br /><br />The decision of the Board to adopt the Discovering Series is remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.<br /><br />Dated this 4th day of February, 2010.<br /><br />How difficult is this to figure out?<br /><br />Try deliberating about the approval again using all the evidence and re-vote. (probably a first time event in recent board history having each and every director using all the evidence).<br /><br />Article IX: It is the paramount duty of the state to make ample provision for the education of all children residing within its borders, without distinction or preference on account of race, color, caste, or sex. <br /><br />The district is still trying to win this with "correct form" trumps "outcome". It is a logical extension of the math programs the SPS adopts:<br /><br />Write a bunch of stuff down and don't worry the answer does not count.<br /><br />When your answer violates article IX, which it clearly does then you lose.<br /><br />And if you don't lose a whole lot of children will be losing for even more years.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22174118817609658062010-02-21T16:26:56.247-08:002010-02-21T16:26:56.247-08:00Here is another piece that misses the entire point...Here is another piece that misses the entire point:<br /><br />"He seems to feel the judge erred. He said they did follow the WAC rules which is what she should have been ruling on but didn't. I probably should go back and look at the complete ruling but it seems like not going by the WAC would open her decision up to be reversed so why would she have done it?"<br /><br />The Judge Remanded the approval of Discovering.<br /><br />The board did not use all the evidence available as they should have in making their approval decision.<br /><br />Appeal was filed on June 5, 2009 by RCW the board has 20 days to send in all the materials on which they based their decision. They sent in 1100 pages of material that included ZERO as in "0" pages from the public.<br /><br />The plaintiffs upon review of the 1100 pages, then provided the court with NMAP which they felt should be included since Sundquist referenced NMAP as a basis for his decision and might have read it.<br /><br />The plaintiffs also included over 200+ pages of letters and testimony sent or presented to the board.<br /><br />If you look up the <a href="http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/q030.htm" rel="nofollow">legal definition of remand here,</a> you will be seriously concerned about why there is any difficulty with Judge Spector's ruling.<br /><br />Look: If the appellate court decides that <i><b>the evidence should have been admitted </b></i>and that the exclusion of the evidence was prejudicial to the party offering it, the appellate court would likely <b><i>remand the case for new trial and order the evidence introduced.</i></b><br /><br />Let me get this straight.<br /><br />#1.. Board excludes evidence<br />#2.. Judge orders Board to deliberate again using all the evidence.<br />#3 District does not wish to do this. (So much for community engagement, public testimony and writing to the board).<br /><b><i><br />Just super to know that the Superintendent, her staff, and the school board are thinking that excluding evidence provided by the public might be a great course of action. </i></b><br /><br />I think they are just not happy that Judge Spector gave them a heads up that No reasonable director looking at all the evidence could have made an approval decision.<br /><br />That is a think ahead (heads up) for the district and thinking ahead has never been a strong point for the SPS and TEAM MGJ.<br /><br />This outfit has been violating Article IX for years. The Plaintiffs made that part of their case.<br /><br /><a href="http://soundmath.wetpaint.com/page/Results" rel="nofollow">Take a look here and see.</a><br /><br />WOW!!! what ever are these folks thinking. Can Harium or MGJ explain this one?<br /><br />Well now it all makes perfect sense the message is clear:<br /><br /><b><i>"We Don't Care and We think we will never ever need to care about public input unless we choose to."</i></b><br /><br />Folks NEWS FLASH !!! for MGJ<br /><br />The USA is a republic and citizens even the kids have rights under the constitutions like WA Const. Article IX. Even the oligarchical SPS can not violate them when someone or ones decide to put in thousands of hours and $13,140 in legal fees to protect the rights of the children from the oligarchy.<br /><br />Appeal away let the broader public know more about The Super.. the Staff .. and the Board.<br /><br />Hey is could be time to <a href="http://seattlemathgroup.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">make a donation here.</a> <br /><br />or <a href="http://mathunderground.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-shirt-arbitrary-capricious-in-seattle.html" rel="nofollow">think about a T-Shirt here.</a><br />=================<br /><br />Looking for role models for "Arbitrary and Capricious" visit Seattle. We know we have some we are just not sure how many.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37294172525271348822010-02-21T15:20:49.610-08:002010-02-21T15:20:49.610-08:00Melissa, after you left Mark-the-Math-guy showed u...Melissa, after you left Mark-the-Math-guy showed up and he had more up-to-date info: the principal who said they are are NOT doing 6th grade math placement tests for 5th graders was misinformed. No reason at this point to think they are doing anything different this year.Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.com