tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post803117507293664007..comments2024-03-28T23:38:22.511-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: The Board is Afraid of Advanced LearningMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82247732214765977602013-11-20T09:11:50.758-08:002013-11-20T09:11:50.758-08:00Spectrum Environmental Services, Inc. is a multifa...Spectrum Environmental Services, Inc. is a multifaceted family of companies <br />offering environmental consulting, industrial services and environmental products. <br />With headquarters in Alabaster, Alabama, near Birmingham, the Spectrum group of companies <br />brings a high level of commitment toward quality and professionalism to every aspect of your project. <br />Hydroblasting services, vacuum truck services, industrial spill products, and more - <br />as the name “Spectrum” suggests, we offer a complete and comprehensive array of products and services <br />including industrial, waste management, consulting, and remediation services. With Spectrum, your <br />company can access one full-service, integrated source <br />that is designed to help manage your company’s relationship with the environment.<br /><a href="http://www.specenviro.com" rel="nofollow">Remediation services alabama</a><br /><br />bogra420https://www.blogger.com/profile/03155278637009068121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8722227582793116512013-10-26T23:00:48.545-07:002013-10-26T23:00:48.545-07:00When you tell me it's better for my kids to re...When you tell me it's better for my kids to remove yours from their classrooms, I can't agree with you. It really wasn't better for my daughter to have all her same age/gender peers in another classroom and be assigned the role of balancing gender in a class of kids who were one to two years older than her. It was NOT better for her to be labeled "not Spectrum qualified". She knows she sometimes takes longer to learn math concepts than her peers, so she welcomes extra help in Math. She excels in reading so being labeled "at the bottom" until her MAP scores proved otherwise was really discouraging for her. A walk to program tailored to her strengths and weaknesses would have served her best. If you need to remove your children from the general education classroom so that they can learn in a way that's best for them, it's OK with me. But please don't say you are doing that out of consideration for my kids. Once you do that, the "middle" the teaching is geared to moves down a bit. Then, it's my problem to get the rigor up in my child's classroom and work with her teachers to see that she is challenged. Again, I respectfully ask you not present your child's program as being structured out of consideration for my child. Gen Ed in Seattle universally needs more rigor not less, so please don't worry that the standards in Gen Ed will rise too high if your kid gets near mine. Do what you need to do, but be honest, you're fighting for your kid, not mine. Thank you.<br /><br />Gen Ed MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43460006596267012882013-10-25T08:47:44.133-07:002013-10-25T08:47:44.133-07:00I'd like to see something like this. If an Ari...I'd like to see something like <a href="http://www.pvschools.net/gifted/pdfs/GiftedScope&Sequence.pdf" rel="nofollow">this</a>. If an Arizona district with 33,000 students can come up with this, why can't Seattle? We could drop the task forces, pay their gifted education director a consulting fee to set it up, and be so much better off.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83147367571127574952013-10-25T06:08:07.047-07:002013-10-25T06:08:07.047-07:00Lynn, the only way that it could happen would be i...Lynn, the only way that it could happen would be if they would drop their inexplicable obsession with acceleration.<br /><br />So, no. Ain't gonna happen.<br /><br />They prefer acceleration to depth and breadth because it is dead simple to measure. The other two, the two that people really care the most about, are difficult (if not impossible) to measure. Can you imagine Ms Heath telling the Board that APP is successful because the students are learning the concepts of the grade level Standards 245% more deeply than typical students and can apply those concepts in 375% more contexts. Yeah. Neither can I.<br /><br />But speaking as a parent of two APP-eligible and participating students, I cared more about them learning the concepts more deeply and applying them more broadly than I ever cared about them learning the topics faster or sooner. They will get to long division. It doesn't matter if they learn it in the third grade or the fifth grade or the seventh grade. They will learn it. What matters is how well they really understand it and how and why it works.<br /><br />Unfortunately, thanks to the Seattle math curriculum, they never learned it at all.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50207843658179289262013-10-24T20:03:46.518-07:002013-10-24T20:03:46.518-07:00Do you think the AL office will ever come up with ...Do you think the AL office will ever come up with a curriculum that takes that into account? At this point, I can't imagine it happening.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13212320681759064032013-10-24T18:19:24.306-07:002013-10-24T18:19:24.306-07:00The research says that highly capable children thi...The research says that highly capable children think differently and should be taught differently.<br /><br />Not sooner - differently. Putting them in a regular class intended for older students only teaches them sooner, not differently.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74969004531129336902013-10-24T13:29:15.938-07:002013-10-24T13:29:15.938-07:00I wasn't saying that it was a problem to have ...I wasn't saying that it was a problem to have one - or a few - very bright 6th graders in the math class. However, when the class is all three grades, with the huge developmental changes that occur across those 3 years there's a problem when the group of much smaller kids is clearly ahead of the group of older kids.<br />Doing Algebra 1 in 8th grade is actually an accomplishment, but it wouldn't feel like it when most of the kids in your class are younger and are whipping through the material much faster and easier than you are.<br />Momof2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39286463801281839662013-10-23T11:34:01.167-07:002013-10-23T11:34:01.167-07:00Independent study math classes for middle school s...Independent study math classes for middle school students are more likely to be taught at an honors level. Advanced math classes in middle school, even when including a majority APP or Spectrum students, are not necessarily taught at an honors level. It depends on the teacher. Perhaps <b>puzzled's</b> child has been placed in a more rigorous class. This is something I don't understand. If students test into a program that states the students need "comprehensive and substantial modification to the general education curriculum," why are classes not taught at an honors level? For math, I have no problem with a 6th grader taking a class with an 8th grader. What I can't understand is why the expectations aren't substantially (and consistently) higher for high school classes taken in middle school.<br /><br />This whole discussion goes back to how APP/Spectrum are defined. If it's only "2 years ahead" or "1 year ahead" then it's not consistent with what is written on their website. Why?<br /><br />-fsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62755140578925307502013-10-23T10:11:39.652-07:002013-10-23T10:11:39.652-07:00puzzled parent,
It's not embarrassing for the ...<b>puzzled parent</b>,<br />It's not embarrassing for the other APP kids because the class is paced appropriately for them. Your son is the one whose needs aren't being met. Isn't he miserable? If there were a few children with his ability and the class was taught to them, the other students would likely find that embarrassing. <br />Your son is an example of what APP is missing - individualized instruction for kids who are outliers even there. It does a nice job though of finding a peer group for most of the kids who were outliers in their neighborhood schools.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83389233312529085812013-10-23T10:09:29.527-07:002013-10-23T10:09:29.527-07:00@ puzzled parent, your comment doesn't make se...@ puzzled parent, your comment doesn't make sense to me. Middle school math classes are NOT APP-specific, so there are most likely non-APP students in your child's class. When you combine lower grade APP students with upper grade non-APP students just because they are technically at the same math level, you end up with courses that move too slowly and lack sufficient rigor for those highly capable learners. This seems to be what you are experiencing, so I'm not clear on why you think it doesn't matter who is in the class. Do you think math classes offered at school will always be too easy for your student? If so, I recommend you look into independent study to move beyond what the school can offer (unless your kid is happy with the easy A, that is). <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34256521044573478802013-10-23T09:27:29.039-07:002013-10-23T09:27:29.039-07:00My kid sits in an APP math class in the highest pl...My kid sits in an APP math class in the highest placement available. He finishes the whole week's work in the first class period while the other kids take the whole week & complain about the hours at home they work on it and then have the deadline extended for several more days the following week. He has not lost one point on classwork or tests. He has never done this math level before. <br /><br />Does that embarrass the other APP kids? Do they learn differently? Is it any worse than being the gen ed 8th grader with an APP 6th grader in your class? How are you going to have any class with no differences in abilities even in APP? It doesn't make any difference to my kid whether the other kids in class are APP or remedial math.<br /><br />-puzzled parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4669898966744509502013-10-23T07:31:39.598-07:002013-10-23T07:31:39.598-07:00Yet, this is what the district website states:
St...Yet, this is what the district website states:<br /><br /><i>Students who are academically highly gifted present significantly different learning styles, learning pace, and curricular needs that require comprehensive and substantial modification to the general education curriculum and classroom experience to achieve educational benefit.</i><br /><br />Both Spectrum and APP have as a stated principle to <i>4) Provide instruction by teachers familiar with the needs of students who are academically gifted/highly gifted.</i><br /><br />disillusionedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-531431369507651672013-10-23T07:02:18.852-07:002013-10-23T07:02:18.852-07:00The issues are clarifying.
If the District define...The issues are clarifying.<br /><br />If the District defines Spectrum and APP as "one year ahead" and "two years ahead", as Ms Heath defined them to me, then they will dismantle the programs and just place 6th and 7th graders in Algebra classes with 8th graders. Let's bear in mind that, strictly speaking, Algebra is a 9th grade class.<br /><br />The District's narrow definition of the programs will reduce them to nothing more than grade skipping in middle and high school. This isn't developmentally appropriate. Not at all.<br /><br />Children go through a lot of change and rapid growth during middle school. There are big developmental differences between a 6th grader and an 8th grader regardless of their exposure to sophisticated ideas or advanced materials. And there are big developmental differences between 9th graders and 12th graders as well. It's probably not a good idea for any of them to be in the same classes together.<br /><br />But that is the inevitable result of these narrow definitions of the programs. If the programs are re-defined to nothing but grade-skipping then they will be replaced with grade-skipping.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5270158473826040372013-10-22T21:28:24.694-07:002013-10-22T21:28:24.694-07:00Regarding APP and Spectrum in middle school:
At mi...Regarding APP and Spectrum in middle school:<br />At middle school, my son is in an Algebra 1 class with 6th, 7th and 8th graders. The 6th and 7th graders, who are mostly APP, catch on to the material much faster than the 8th graders. It's awkward and causes problems for the 8th graders, who are struggling to keep up, even while many of them are a foot taller than the 6th graders:-). <br />There are good reasons for separate APP classes, and some of them are especially beneficial for the non-APP students.<br />Momof2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16235054977555717892013-10-22T17:26:04.810-07:002013-10-22T17:26:04.810-07:00Charlie,
I understand what you're saying - bu...Charlie,<br /><br />I understand what you're saying - but these kids learn differently (and definitely faster) than most. Too many schools offer honors credit for extra work done in general education classes and AP classes that are required rather than opt-in. Those classes would not be rigorous enough for most APP students. Even the 9th and 10th grade honors english classes are not very rigorous. While there are no APP-only classes, if APP students are concentrated in one or two schools, there's a good change kids will find a peer group in every class. That makes classroom discussions more engaging. <br /><br />Middle school and high school can be challenging socially - and returning these kids to their neighborhood schools where they are outliers is asking for trouble. I just don't see the point. They don't have to all be in one school - but they should be deliberately grouped at just a few schools. 75 students per grade might be a good goal. <br /><br />If you want to spread these kids out without diluting the (already not very rigorous) program, the schools you send them to would have to offer Biology and World History in middle school and three years of history/government after AP World History in high school.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38070789326762111872013-10-22T15:42:07.594-07:002013-10-22T15:42:07.594-07:00With the standardization of curriculum (and no cur...With the standardization of curriculum (and no curriculum specifically designed for APP), APP has lost rigor, so take Charlie's post with a grain of salt. The program has lost some of the challenge and depth and has devolved into little more than acceleration for several classes (like a grade skip without skipping a grade). It's better than nothing, but not how the program was originally designed and implemented.<br /><br />-disillusionedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61991649350762394792013-10-22T14:22:18.155-07:002013-10-22T14:22:18.155-07:00Cathy,
I understand your question. The programmin...Cathy,<br /><br />I understand your question. The programming is practically non-existent, so why bother to have the programs? There are no ALOs in middle school and no Spectrum in high schools. It could be argued that there is no specific programming or classes in high school for APP either - the students just take more AP or IB classes and take them sooner than other students. There's no programming, so why bother to have programs? Or, more precisely, why bother to claim to have programs?<br /><br />The answer is historical. Back in the Dark Ages - eight years ago - the class offerings at middle and high schools varied dramatically from school to school. Garfield has a large number and variety of AP classes. Roosevelt had only a few less, but Cleveland had none. That's right: zero. Rainier Beach had only three.<br /><br />The range of class offerings at middle school were just as broad. Families touring Mercer who asked about advanced math classes were told - by the principal at a school tour - that they should send their children to Washington if that's what they wanted.<br /><br />There has been a lot of change since then. Now every middle school offers advanced math classes and every high school has a good number and variety of AP or IB classes available. These classes are available to all students regardless of program membership. So program membership means less, so why even have programs? I get it. It's a good question.<br /><br />To be clear: there is no APP specific classes or programming at the high school level. The only advanced learning classes or programming at the middle school level are APP and Spectrum Language Arts/Social Studies blocks and APP science classes. The District may claim that the language arts classes are one or two grade levels ahead, but I don't know if they would award high school credit for them. Same for the social studies.<br /><br />There is no reason that placement in these classes could not be done like the placement for math classes instead of following program membership lines. Honors classes are available for students who are not in Spectrum or APP. I'm not sure how 6th grade LA is different from 6th grade honors LA, 6th grade Spectrum LA, or 6th grade APP LA. I'm not sure that Ms Heath could describe the differences among them.<br /><br />All of the folks who talk about additional rigor in the general education programs should acknowledge this progress and take it as evidence that the district can make this happen.<br /><br />This rise in rigor available to all students in every school does make Cathy's question possible and, in fact, reasonable.<br /><br />We should acknowledge that APP and Spectrum are, in truth, 1-5 programs like ALOs, except that ALOs are, for the most part, nothing at all.<br /><br />It makes you wonder if someone won't be asking that same question about Spectrum and APP in elementary school if the rigor available in the general education classes at that level get the needed improvement.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59947921230694108902013-10-22T12:59:06.323-07:002013-10-22T12:59:06.323-07:00I'd like to understand why parents feel so str...I'd like to understand why parents feel so strongly that there is a need for APP (or even Spectrum) for Middle School and High School. As far as I understand (and I was educated in a foreign school system), there are classes offered at different levels as well as honor classes and AP classes. Running Start and the early entrance program at the UW seem to be further options for advancement. <br /><br />CathyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79807104650390599452013-10-22T11:16:09.254-07:002013-10-22T11:16:09.254-07:00So, to bring this discussion back to where we star...So, to bring this discussion back to where we started, the Board has refused to move forward with an advanced learning policy because:<br /><br />1) The Board is not interested in policy and governance.<br /><br />2) The Board Directors are, at heart, politicians who do not want to make any potentially contentious decisions.<br /><br />3) The Board regards all of advanced learning as a swirling, sucking vortex of anger, accusations, and elitism. It is a no-win situation in which any statement or decision will alienate a large number of people.<br /><br />4) The Board doesn't support advanced learning in any form and wish it would just go away.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25683315726509745142013-10-22T10:35:50.224-07:002013-10-22T10:35:50.224-07:00"Why is early identification of gifted childr..."Why is early identification of gifted children most important for economically disadvantaged children?<br />"<br /><br /><br />Of course a big issue is that even identifying highly-capable children in a poor, non-supportive homelife situation still disadvantages the child. Especially compared to the Lake Woebegone kids of NE Seattle (everyone is highly capable ).<br /><br />Louisiana actually has a residence program at the high school level for highly capable students from poor areas.<br /><br />--SPSwearyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65833783867948178632013-10-22T10:17:06.317-07:002013-10-22T10:17:06.317-07:00Why is early identification of gifted children mos...Why is early identification of gifted children most important for economically disadvantaged children?<br /><br /><i>One of the most misguided notions in education is that high IQ scores in young children are simply an artifact of a good environment, that they can be artificially inflated by parents' reading to children or by the children attending a good preschool. Intelligence is certainly a combination of heredity and environment, but who has more environmental opportunities: the 4 year old or the 9 year old? Therefore, which score is likely to be the most influenced by a good environment? The impact of the environment on IQ increases with age; therefore, the scores of third graders are unquestionably more influenced by the environment than the scores of kindergarteners.</i><br /><br /><a href="http://www.positivedisintegration.com/Silverman1992b.pdf" rel="nofollow">Source</a>Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57758559254106776802013-10-22T07:58:37.797-07:002013-10-22T07:58:37.797-07:00AL services shouldn't be based on personal bel...AL services shouldn't be based on personal beliefs or anecdotes about gifted education. That is how Spectrum has been slowly dismantled. Hopefully the committees are balanced by those that look to professionals in the field of gifted education. Serving highly capable students does not prevent Teach38 from doing her job, and eliminating gifted education would not make her job any easier.<br /><br />If students were to self select for advanced coursework beginning in middle school (which they can do for math), there would still need to be entrance requirements and exit requirements. Whether it be grades (which can be even more biased than standardized testing) or another measure, you want some measure that will ensure a level of success for those students should they choose a more advanced class. <br /><br />How to help support students to get them up to standard is a different conversation. As others have repeatedly said, better content and curriculum across the grades would go a long way in serving all students.commenternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11934405376070739392013-10-21T23:21:42.850-07:002013-10-21T23:21:42.850-07:00Teach38,
Do you mean that you've administered...Teach38,<br /><br />Do you mean that you've administered something like the CogAT or have you administered actual IQ tests? Hasn't every teacher in Seattle Public Schools administered standardized achievement tests? I guess I'm trying to figure out what kind of professional training in the education and/or identification of gifted children has informed your opinions. <br /><br />If I can ask one more question, why did you choose to test your children for and enroll them in APP?<br /><br />If you want to start a discussion on how parent volunteers can get involved in schools they are not familiar with, I bet Melissa or Charlie would be happy to create a post for that.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39834088517684577792013-10-21T23:04:41.552-07:002013-10-21T23:04:41.552-07:00@ NE mom
Try united way KC volunteer site. They ha...@ NE mom<br />Try united way KC volunteer site. They have a volunteer program for preschool readers. Click on their volunteer site, put in tutoring and voila, you will have more opportunities than time! Earlier in the fall, they were looking for math volunteers in Seattle schools. Some of the tutoring are through non profits, I.e. Catholic services, others through SPS, and local community or SHA centers. Just tons of needs everywhere from preK to HS age.<br /><br />Try also our Seattle public library. They have an after school tutoring program at certain branches all over Seattle.<br /><br />Require a little training and serious commitment. From personal experience, I can tell you the little good you give will come back to you in spades.<br /><br />dejavuAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91617729968931675442013-10-21T22:32:10.089-07:002013-10-21T22:32:10.089-07:00WAC 392-170-010 Purpose.
The purpose of this cha...<b>WAC 392-170-010 Purpose.</b><br /> <br /><i>The purpose of this chapter is to establish policies and procedures for administration of programs for the education of <b>K-12 students</b> who are highly capable.</i><br /><br /><b>WAC 392-170-005 Authority</b><br /> <br /><i>The authority for this chapter is RCW 28A.150.290, 28A.185.030, and 28A.185.050, which authorize the superintendent of public instruction to adopt rules and regulations for the administration of a program for highly capable students in <b>kindergarten through twelfth grade</b>, including the nomination, assessment, and selection of such students.</i><br /><br />Thank goodness the WAC includes K and up. <br /><br />HMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com