tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8111909274023728349..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: "De-Tracking" on Track in SPSMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger303125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74366101867158005102016-07-18T20:09:04.124-07:002016-07-18T20:09:04.124-07:00Another Garfield teacher talks about the change to...Another Garfield teacher talks about the change to Honors for All: https://mobile.twitter.com/JessedHagopian/status/753700886698860544Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3623133857821852082016-07-18T16:38:14.764-07:002016-07-18T16:38:14.764-07:00Reposting for Anonymous at 11:43am 7/18/16:
Anony...Reposting for Anonymous at 11:43am 7/18/16:<br /> Anonymous said...<br />@ Charlie Mas, absolutely, "desegregation" is the primary goal for the teachers. If this was a homogeneous school, we aren't even having this conversation. <br /><br />This is part of a bigger issue with the faculty at Garfield - they see themselves as the vanguard of a social justice movement first and as educators second. Parents are a nuisance, particularly the "elitist, obnoxious, racist" HCC parents. Carol Burton decided the district's field trip processes were not sufficiently progressive and decided to just let students do whatever they wanted while she partied. These teachers didn't feel it necessary to do any community engagement or follow any kind of process in making a huge change.<br /><br />The teaching quality at Garfield is uneven at best and highly suspect in many areas. The administration randomly veers from one initiative (restorative justice) to another (detracking) without any semblance of a longer term plan. Classrooms are staffed by long term subs (Spanish as an example) who can't teach their class.<br /><br />There is no accountability at all. Lack of accountability is endemic in Seattle Public Schools - this is why so many families just opt out.<br /><br />7/18/16, 11:43 AM<br /><br />++++<br /><br />This has also been our experience.<br /><br />-more GarfieldAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27264845055740723172016-07-18T11:43:40.446-07:002016-07-18T11:43:40.446-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25973328767734455372016-07-18T08:38:41.113-07:002016-07-18T08:38:41.113-07:00Charlie, I have now heard two teachers say (the on...Charlie, I have now heard two teachers say (the one at Facebook and another I spoke with) that the ending of segregation of races is a big reason this is happening. I suspect that Lynn is right.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85631570037714991302016-07-18T08:01:31.312-07:002016-07-18T08:01:31.312-07:00Wow, Lynn. You write with such authority and convi...Wow, Lynn. You write with such authority and conviction about what is in the minds of the Garfield teachers. Can you read my mind as well? What number am I thinking of?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32688451110060948502016-07-16T15:27:32.920-07:002016-07-16T15:27:32.920-07:00P.S. Median household income in Rockville center i...P.S. Median household income in Rockville center is 112,000 (Seattle is $63,000, Ballard $84,000),but median family income is actually $150,000 (Seattle is 94,000 Ballard is 107,000). It is more similar to stats of Mercer Island than Ballard or Seattle.<br />-Theresa Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37559992893985309262016-07-16T12:35:24.109-07:002016-07-16T12:35:24.109-07:00Growing Skeptic-- I am from LI and have a relative...Growing Skeptic-- I am from LI and have a relative who lives in Rockville center. The town is NOT equivalent to Ballard area of Seattle in terms of income. I chuckled when I saw that comparison! My relative pays $16,000 in property taxes per year for a 2300 square foot house & they have a state income tax as well. The majority of taxes are school related & one can see this info on the tax bill. Not only are high school class sizes below 20, they often ALSO have instructional assistants in the classrooms. I grew up on LI, much of it is VERY affluent and the school that reminded me most of my own LI high school is Lakeside. Rockville Center district is super small (like many on LI) & Southside is the only high school. Very small, focused on serving a mostly homogenous pop and very, very well resourced. Per pupil spending on LI last time I checked was close to $28,000 per student. 10% free & reduced lunch at Southside. <br />-Theresa Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13658532455919028072016-07-14T23:23:43.640-07:002016-07-14T23:23:43.640-07:00I expect you're right NJP. I also expect that ...I expect you're right NJP. I also expect that the teachers don't care even a little bit about the effect this will have on selective college admissions for Garfield's "privileged" students. The staff feel they have the moral high ground - in their minds they're dismantling segregation and institutional racism. <br /><br />Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82050088608030326002016-07-14T18:03:53.720-07:002016-07-14T18:03:53.720-07:00I asked a friend in college admissions about that ...I asked a friend in college admissions about that last scenario, and he said without different designations, colleges would quickly come to view all honors classes at the school as regular, an attempt by the school to "Lake Woebegone" itself. Frowned upon. Colleges want to know that a course description has an approximate meaning, that getting an A means a particular standard of work completed.<br /><br />NJPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27325566508922241812016-07-14T17:46:05.049-07:002016-07-14T17:46:05.049-07:00Since the Honors class has a defined and more rigo...<i>Since the Honors class has a defined and more rigorous set of Standards,</i><br /><br /><b>Charlie, </b> Do we know that this is true? <br /><br />If so, do the standards cover what the teacher presents or what the student is expected to learn? I can imagine that it is often true that the standards for a class are rigorous, but not every student meets those standards. Does that mean the course does not meet the standard? Or is this where grades come in? So rigorous standards would lead to students who don't meet the standard necessarily receiving bad grades in the course?<br /><br />Could a course be rigorous, but some students be graded on a less than rigorous standard than others so they can still do well (grade wise) in the class? Maureennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86008938451283250632016-07-14T14:49:28.756-07:002016-07-14T14:49:28.756-07:00@ Theresa, another interesting thing about Rockvil...@ Theresa, another interesting thing about Rockville Centre's South Side High School is how few National Merit semifinalists they typically have, especially given the affluence, heterogeneity, and small class size.<br /><br />StunnedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90741735131657950162016-07-14T14:44:20.281-07:002016-07-14T14:44:20.281-07:00@ z, several commenters have already noted that Ga...@ z, several commenters have already noted that Garfield's classes weren't tracked in the first place, but GHS staff keep using that language regardless. It fits their narrative better.<br /><br />StunnedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90524938352044267402016-07-14T13:26:30.315-07:002016-07-14T13:26:30.315-07:00I also want to highlight the fact that Garfield cl...I also want to highlight the fact that Garfield classes are not tracked, unlike the Rockville center school was on LI. Garfield offers opt in honors classes for all.<br />-Theresa.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8708057373829040742016-07-14T13:11:59.380-07:002016-07-14T13:11:59.380-07:00I read the article with great interest. You cannot...I read the article with great interest. You cannot compare Garfield to South Side in Rockville center or compare resources in the districts. My cousin sends her kids to school in Rockville center. I am from LI. It is very low free & reduced lunch (10%) and is mostly white. The school district (like many on LI) is small, only one high school for example. Class sizes are half Seattle class sizes. Her kids have 17-22 in their classes. Property taxes for her 2200 square foot house are 16000 per year, majority goes toward school taxes. There is also a state income tax in NY state. In contrast to Garfield, their honors classes previously were not opt in. Garfield allows kids to choose between honors & general ed. Standford research indicates class is the main factor in the achievement gap, not race. Standford Research indicates the achievement gap between blacks and whites has narrowed greatly past 30-50 years, while between classes has doubled in the past 30-50 years. Research indicates income inequality is the main issue causing the gap and African Americans are over represented in lower socio classes. <br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/economy/education-gap-between-rich-and-poor-is-growing-wider.html?_r=0 <br />- Theresa Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71572651043668390912016-07-14T12:46:28.924-07:002016-07-14T12:46:28.924-07:00I read this with great interest. I am from LI. My ...I read this with great interest. I am from LI. My cousin sends her kids to school in Rockville center. Sorry, but you cannot compare the school demographics, size of district, taxes or class sizes to Seattle Public Schools!! My cousin pays 16000 per year in property taxes for a 2200 square foot house. The class sizes for her kids are 18-22 students per class. The districts on LI are very small. Rockville center has one high school for example. The free & reduced lunch population at the high school for example, is very low (10% last time I checked). It is very expensive to live in Rockville center. <br /><br />Standford and other Educational research has demonstrated that the achievement gap has been narrowed greatly between blacks & whites past 30 years, but during the same period has doubled between classes. Research indicates income is the strongest factor in the achievement gap, not race. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/economy/education-gap-between-rich-and-poor-is-growing-wider.html?_r=0 <br />-JeannieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72294319974369434002016-07-14T12:10:49.205-07:002016-07-14T12:10:49.205-07:00FWIW wrote:
"The discussion about pathways,et...FWIW wrote:<br />"<i>The discussion about pathways,etc. is now moot, folks. Your child's score for entrance into the program was invalid because the district doesn't follow the author of the test's scoring guidelines.</i>"<br /><br />Whether the District's process is optimal or not, it is the District's process. In that context (that context being the one in which we find ourselves, you know, reality) the discussion is not moot at all and it's just goofy to suggest that it is.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71187177303294823422016-07-14T12:06:48.688-07:002016-07-14T12:06:48.688-07:00FWIW, you could say nearly the same about using th...FWIW, you could say nearly the same about using the SBAC because it is not statistically valid (at least not according to a national group.) <br /><br />HP, thank you for that input for Hale. Very helpful.<br /><br />FWIW, then your argument is with the district, not the parents. They are following the procedure the district uses for their program. Is it the right instrument for all students? Probably not and that's where advocacy comes in.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55998068054709286502016-07-14T09:50:21.223-07:002016-07-14T09:50:21.223-07:00Alternative universe: https://faculty.education.u...Alternative universe: https://faculty.education.uiowa.edu/david-lohman/home<br /><br />Using the discrepancy model is not a choice for cases to promote affirmative action; it is for designated scoring model in order to control for baises. The district has chosen CogAT as the gatekeeper test but producing using invalid scores and using them as qualification for HCC.<br /><br />This is certainly not irrelevant to this topic or thread, but is the foundation of the discussion. Denying the origins is like a creationist arguing against evolution.<br /><br />FWIW<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57306731032974453112016-07-14T09:36:48.347-07:002016-07-14T09:36:48.347-07:00The page count and book reading is in regards to t...The page count and book reading is in regards to the summer reading at Hale. They have to read at least one book over the summer from the list for their grade. In order to get honors for that part of the LA requirement, the book has to be longer. During the rest of LA, there are assigned books to read. For Honors designation, you have to opt in and you get graded on a different scale and have more requirements. Your report card comes with your grade and an H behind it. The GPA gets weighted for class rank but not for the cumulative GPA. It is to be noted that you don't get to wear the 4.0 sash at graduation unless you have a 4.0 cumulative GPA so a 3.8 H is weighted more and indicates it is honors but it ruins your 4.0 cumulative and you don't get to wear the sash.<br /><br />Honestly, it reminds me of high school gymnastics where it might be in your best interest to do a lower level stunt perfectly rather than a more difficult stunt less than perfectly. It is a numbers game.<br /><br />Universities do look at the level of difficulty of classes, GPAs, class rank, test scores, etc. So you can have a lower GPA but if they see that H or AP listed, they give you a boost for that meaning a 4.0 with no honors or AP may very well be ranked lower than a 3.8 with H's and AP classes mixed in.<br /><br />HP<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74055405245112666112016-07-14T09:31:01.803-07:002016-07-14T09:31:01.803-07:00FWIW,
Oh sweetie, you're so excited to have ...FWIW, <br /><br />Oh sweetie, you're so excited to have this new point to argue. It's cute but sad. Lohman's point is that you look at the discrepancy model if you want to find the top 2% or 5% or 10% of students in each group. That gives you gifted classes that look like the rest of the district. The trouble is that those students aren't necessarily gifted. If you want to find and serve gifted students you have to use IQ tests and those are not normed by race or ELL status or income level. Only these ridiculous teachers at Marshall and Washington and Garfield care more about the color of the kids in advanced classes than whether students are being challenged in school.<br /><br />Moving OnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62126016245384383852016-07-14T09:28:31.851-07:002016-07-14T09:28:31.851-07:00-now what? writes: "The Garfield pathway is s...-now what? writes: "<i>The Garfield pathway is supposed to provide the continuum, but at the same time, the district is eliminating some of the acceleration (in the name of equity?).</i>" The teachers at Garfield have been very clear that they will not eliminate the acceleration, and that the Honors classes will be as rigorous as ever.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86923473797441278212016-07-14T09:26:17.935-07:002016-07-14T09:26:17.935-07:00FWIW, if this is supposed to mean "for what i...FWIW, if this is supposed to mean "for what it's worth" then let me tell you that it isn't worth a thing. If you want to argue the eligibility criteria for Advanced Learning then you'll have to do it in another thread. For this thread it is completely off-topic. I'm sure there are lots of alternative universes with a different set of realities, but in this reality, the discussion about pathways is not moot and the children in the programs are the children in the programs. It's time for you to become reality-based and deal with it.<br /><br />And we all have an interest in public education - whether or not we have a child in the program or at Garfield.<br /><br />Then there's the other off-topic issue, the one raised by GarfieldMom about less effective teachers. Variations in teacher effectiveness actually make the class Standards more of an issue. The academic standards for the class are enforceable and can form the basis for a legitimate complaint about a teacher. Since the Honors class has a defined and more rigorous set of Standards, families can compare student assignments to those Standards and make effective complaints based on objective facts. In the absence of specific Standards, such as in a class that only makes vague promises of acceleration, no legitimate complaint is possible.<br /><br />Finally, if you're going to say that a group is dysfunctional, then you better be ready to explain how they are dysfunctional. Since you have not been able to do so, we can now dismiss your statement as false and even further lower our judgement of your credibility.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67317080603251076762016-07-14T09:03:40.881-07:002016-07-14T09:03:40.881-07:00The process for testing students for HCC is invali...The process for testing students for HCC is invalid since they are over identifying students from higher educated demographics and under identifying students from lower SES. Many students whose parents are commenting on this topic would/should not be in HCC had the district followed the discrepancy model of the author of CogAT. Some students who these same parents fear are not up to par for honors would be in HCC if the district were not using a test that is not being scored accurately.<br /><br />The discussion about pathways,etc. is now moot, folks. Your child's score for entrance into the program was invalid because the district doesn't follow the author of the test's scoring guidelines.<br /><br />Those of you who are so worried about district procedures? Start with getting your student's test scores re-evaluated based on the school's demographics when your student took the test. You may not even have skin in this particular game.<br /><br />FWIWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79365316205969645642016-07-14T07:46:08.513-07:002016-07-14T07:46:08.513-07:00I think the issue distills to differing views with...I think the issue distills to differing views within the district on how to best serve Highly Capable students. <br /><br />Students are tested and grouped for instruction in order to more efficiently provide appropriately advanced work. Many bus out of their neighborhood to access a program that is supposed to provide the appropriate acceleration. The cohort provides the critical mass of students needed for schools to offer advanced courses ("high school" biology and geometry in 8th, for example). The program accelerates their coursework, and up until just a few years ago, LA/SS was part of that acceleration. The Garfield pathway allowed for a continuum of the acceleration that neighborhood schools couldn't offer. <br /><br />After years of this being the model, the district began to take away the acceleration. Spectrum self-contained is no more. Accelerated LA/SS courses were eliminated in most middle school APP/HCC schools as they were told to align to grade level standards. They are supposed to get differentiated assignments within the framework of grade level standards. In theory, that could work for LA/SS. But all students need to be taught, whether HCC or not. They all need some direct instruction in reading and writing and analysis, but the instruction for students working at grade level may be different from what's needed for those working above or below grade level. <br /><br />So the message is what? The Garfield pathway is supposed to provide the continuum, but at the same time, the district is eliminating some of the acceleration (in the name of equity?). It's like they can't decide what to do with the students. The cohort makes it easier for the district to manage capacity or balance school demographics, but at the same time there is some kind of resistance to providing the accelerated coursework. <br /><br />Meanwhile, HCC families are demonized for expecting the continuum that the district has set up. So now what? There is no clear vision for AL and the internal conflicts with HCC delivery continue. Students are caught in the middle. <br /><br />-now what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58243180392486393502016-07-14T01:01:40.285-07:002016-07-14T01:01:40.285-07:00confused, my son was responding to what I describe...confused, my son was responding to what I described hearing from parents here -- that the only way their HCC child can get an appropriate education is by being in a tracked class. He questioned that. In his experience, those classes don't necessarily end up being the classes in which students learn the most, so he was skeptical that tracked classes automatically end up meeting the needs of the HCC kids, and wondered what parents do when they don't. I told him I don't know -- I don't relate to parents who place such enormous value on high school academic achievement. So I threw his questions out here. <br /><br />And no, neither he nor I are equating Honors for All to a poorly taught AP or honors class. I'm not sure what gave that impression. More like the opposite, really. I'm probably not explaining his point well in trying to distill it for this forum. GarfieldMomnoreply@blogger.com