tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8140382957313085955..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: How Representative Eric Pettigrew is Wrong with HB1497 Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58955298044131159932015-02-26T06:04:41.810-08:002015-02-26T06:04:41.810-08:00Okay. So no one wants to argue on behalf of the bi...Okay. So no one wants to argue on behalf of the bill. How about this:<br /><br />Does anyone want to have a civil and fact-based discussion about whether Representative Pettigrew is well-informed on the issue? How about whether or not his submission of this bill was an act of arrogance? How about whether his submission of this bill - and subsequent mis-informed talk about it - was an act of idiocy?<br /><br />Any takers on that?<br /><br />Here's the thing. If Mr. Pettigrew is arrogant, then there is nothing wrong with calling him arrogant. If he acts like an idiot, then there is nothing wrong with calling him an idiot. I have yet to hear from anyone who actually wants to dispute those truths, they only want me to keep quiet about them because it is somehow rude to announce that the Emperor has no clothes.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40147145580812810022015-02-24T21:07:00.507-08:002015-02-24T21:07:00.507-08:00Still listening. Still no rationale to support thi...Still listening. Still no rationale to support this idea.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86670570667026635212015-02-17T09:58:08.806-08:002015-02-17T09:58:08.806-08:00Still listening, but I don't hear anything. Is...Still listening, but I don't hear anything. Is there no one to make the argument for the other side?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66969745218315225212015-02-12T07:09:27.308-08:002015-02-12T07:09:27.308-08:00I am happy, hell, I'm DELIGHTED to discuss and...I am happy, hell, I'm DELIGHTED to discuss and debate the issues.<br /><br />Let's do that instead of debating my tone or rhetoric, okay.<br /><br />Were is the case that Representative Pettigrew is informed and his bill will be effective?<br /><br />I'm listening.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49804764170328489012015-02-10T12:43:23.552-08:002015-02-10T12:43:23.552-08:00I find that Charlie and Melissa appear on this blo...I find that Charlie and Melissa appear on this blog as very real and concerned people, not as polished personas. <br>That said, I have to respectfully disagree with what Charlie said. It seems to me that the reformers are not idiots, they know what they are doing and they are evil. Charlie can't go flinging around names like that, but I can because I am<br><br />A LurkerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1980805285784710112015-02-10T11:11:32.145-08:002015-02-10T11:11:32.145-08:00I'm pleased to report that an SCPTSA represent...I'm pleased to report that an SCPTSA representative will testify in Olympia today <b>against</b> the bill to split the district. The Legislature will know where we stand. Thanks Eden for your work.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47746717832162377632015-02-10T09:45:47.273-08:002015-02-10T09:45:47.273-08:00I was in Olympia last Wednesday and ran into Rep. ...I was in Olympia last Wednesday and ran into Rep. Pettigrew in the hall and we talked at some length about these bills. He could not explain the "logical framework" of how this change would lead to the change he is looking for. We did agree the district should work on restorative justice reforms (in lieu of suspension and expulsion) to block the school to prison pipeline, but he isn't working on that at the moment. Amy Hagopiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71690764705045228442015-02-10T09:45:14.948-08:002015-02-10T09:45:14.948-08:00I was in Olympia last Wednesday and ran into Rep. ...I was in Olympia last Wednesday and ran into Rep. Pettigrew in the hall and we talked at some length about these bills. He could not explain the "logical framework" of how this change would lead to the change he is looking for. We did agree the district should work on restorative justice reforms (in lieu of suspension and expulsion) to block the school to prison pipeline, but he isn't working on that at the moment. Amy HagopianAmy Hagopiannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43359415293842488002015-02-09T23:07:17.397-08:002015-02-09T23:07:17.397-08:00Umm, I've disagreed with Charlie and said so. ...Umm, I've disagreed with Charlie and said so. Not often because it isn't often that I do disagree with him. But his "tone" has never deterred me from articulating my opinion.<br /><br />I so wish people could learn to participate in a really good debate without constantly judging the debater's tone. That's why I enjoy listening to Parliament in GB so much more than our Congress in the PC US. Of course, Congress is becoming less PC and in a really abusive way. I see Charlie as more like Parliament where there's a lot of good-natured ridicule in the banter. We Americans seem to set banality, shallowness, politeness to the degree of boredom and a definite lack of humor as our model for argument and debate. <br /><br />I've always thought that's what got George Bush the inferior elected. His frat-boy brashness was at least refreshing - for a while. (I didn't vote for him!) nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8930558980039614622015-02-09T23:04:50.485-08:002015-02-09T23:04:50.485-08:00@pearl shrieker et al aliases,
Wrong, wrong and m...@pearl shrieker et al aliases,<br /><br />Wrong, wrong and more wrong. Yeah I do think you might be a spy probably outsourced out of country shrill shill. <br /><br />When you have no facts you cast aspersions. Charlie put forth a cogent argument about why Pettigrew was incompetent or did your employer not allow you to read that? Charlie has had a long lasting effect... In fact every time I advocate for my kids or their schools I think what would WWCD or WWMD to temper my advocacy. I said TEMPER. That is right, polite seattle has a ton of hot heads. Non transplant hot heads who when pushed will push back twice as hard. Keep pushing McMayor and you will find yourself in the long list of single termers. <br /><br />CM and MW are never 100% correct... But they are 100% advocating for the best for all SPS students and for that they are not reproachable. <br /><br />3inSPSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60186784019598012502015-02-09T21:01:47.165-08:002015-02-09T21:01:47.165-08:00Charlie,
It must be awful to be around you. The p...Charlie,<br /><br />It must be awful to be around you. The point about tone is to engage in thoughtful discussion or debate but I realize now that you don't want that. You've driven away any dissenters, so you're just surrounded by your sycophants and fan club. There is no debate in your echo chamber, and you've heard so often how wonderful you are from your fans, who are more pearl clutching shriekers than any others. By driving away any contrary opinions, you've forgotten how to debate them, and can only scoff at the rare dissenter as stupid or evil or ridiculous. It's very intellectually lazy, but I doubt that matters to you. Don't forget, any of us complaining about tone were probably reform movement plants or SPS spies or Nazi infiltrators or whatever. And Iet's not forget how much you've accomplished for this district with your own shrieking....that would be...exactly nothing. Carry on. Real progress is nothing compared to smug moral and intellectual superiority. You were right to go with the latter. I really hope Melissa returns soon.<br />-Pearl ShriekerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-981091931989243682015-02-09T10:25:10.954-08:002015-02-09T10:25:10.954-08:00instead of just clutching your pearls and shriekin...<i> instead of just clutching your pearls and shrieking about my negativity or bad manners.</i><br /><br />Classic. Just classic. :)<br /><br />Conspiracy theories aside, this is a poorly thought out piece of legislation, with a sponsor who appears to have little knowledge about the potential negative impacts nor impetus to discover them.<br /><br />That is the bottom line issue. If Rep. Pettigrew had come out with...oh I don't know... facts? statistics? some kind of inkling that he knew what something as earth-shattering as splitting up a large fiscal entity might entail? Then maybe this post and reader reactions would be vastly different.<br /><br />Its that seeming dispassionate disinterest on the part of Rep. Pettigrew that makes me for one, go hmmmm......<br /><br />Do your homework Mr. Pettigrew and then and only then, come back with these proposals. In the meantime, here's hoping sharper minds will prevail and these will die in committee.<br /><br />reader47Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16486855823141350092015-02-09T09:11:20.051-08:002015-02-09T09:11:20.051-08:00Charlie is on point and anyone who tries to deflat...Charlie is on point and anyone who tries to deflate the messenger need to assess if that is only to divert from the message: Pettigrew is wrong in his fact-less endeavor to split the district and to allow mayoral appointed Board members. You know who I would appoint if I was Mayor; Blandford! You know who I will never vote (again) for; Blandford. Right resume, wrong guy. <br /><br />Thank you Charlie and Melissa. <br />Thank you Charlie and Melissa. <br />Thank you Charlie and Melissa. <br />Thank you Charlie and Melissa. <br /><br />Dadof3 SPSDadof3 SPSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53784717707078015972015-02-09T04:49:57.317-08:002015-02-09T04:49:57.317-08:00I would like to address the claim that I would be ...I would like to address the claim that I would be more effective if I were to adopt a more pleasing tone.<br /><br />I've tried it. It didn't work. I suggest you try it also and see if it works for you.<br /><br />I found that the people who run the school district don't give a damn about what I have to say, no matter how I say it. Nor do they care about how often I write to them. They aren't more responsive if I write less. I know that because I've tried it.<br /><br />It's not just me. I have observed other people - hundreds of other people - try it to no avail. They come and go and they leave angry, frustrated, and dissatisfied because they were no more effective than I was.<br /><br />But you go ahead and try it for yourselves. If it proves effective for you, then keep doing it.<br /><br />Mr. Pettigrew isn't going to withdraw his bill - not if I yell at him and not if I ask him "pretty please". He isn't going to do anything different because of what I write or say no matter how I write or say it, and those who think he will are simply naive or mad.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85276502010939762852015-02-09T04:36:57.683-08:002015-02-09T04:36:57.683-08:00Web Hutchins wrote:
"While he is not an profe...Web Hutchins wrote:<br />"<i>While he is not an professional educator his commitment to improving our city’s schools is unquestioned</i>"<br /><br />No. It is not unquestioned. I question it - as do a number of other people. His idea of replacing elected school board directors with appointed school board directors is highly questionable.<br /><br />As for those who don't care to read <br />Representative Pettigrew described as an arrogant idiot, I would encourage you to avoid reading the Stranger or, if you do, writing to them as well about their negative tone. They have called him - and a number of others - much worse.<br /><br />Mayoral appointment of school board directors is a bad idea. The same voters who are, supposedly, incapable of selecting a good school board director are the same voters who selected the mayor. If they can't be trusted with former then how can we have confidence in their ability to do the latter?<br /><br />As for Mr. Pettigrew, he displayed his ignorance about Seattle schools when he spoke on behalf of his bill at the hearing. It is arrogant for someone so ill-informed about a situation to believe that they have anything useful to contribute to the situation, let alone a solution. Is there anyone who cares to dispute that point? Is there anyone who wishes to claim that Mr. Pettigrew's misstatements were made despite knowing the facts? Is there anyone who wishes to claim that Mr. Pettigrew is actually knowledgeable about the school board - it's history, it's duty, or the fulfillment of that duty? If there is, then please come forward and make your case - instead of just clutching your pearls and shrieking about my negativity or bad manners.<br /><br />And, yes, an idiot, for not knowing. His lack of knowledge is directly attributable to a lack of curiosity. If he wanted to know then he would know. The fact that he didn't want to know reflects on his intelligence as well as his commitment to public education. The fact that he would spew false information at a hearing also makes him an idiot. Only an idiot makes statements without knowing the facts. What did he think? That no one would know the truth? That's just dumb, and it also makes him an idiot.<br /><br />Does anyone want to argue that point? Does anyone want to come forward and claim that he did know the facts, but that he intentionally misstated them for very clever political reasons?<br /><br />I don't think so. I think he's arrogant and an idiot. What is more upsetting - that I correctly identify him as such or that this arrogant idiot represents the 37th district in the state legislature?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18129983799777640962015-02-08T14:43:57.551-08:002015-02-08T14:43:57.551-08:00Thanks techy mom and Greenwoody. I'm another ...Thanks techy mom and Greenwoody. I'm another who thinks "tone" is over-emphasized. Yeah, I took a bit of umbrage at the simplistic sock analogy but I make it a point to always read Charlie because he makes so much sense and is concise. And I love his attitude.<br /><br />Thanks for making an articulate response to all this drivel about tone. <br /><br />Thanks as well for thoughtful responses to the concept of a District split. We should consider it at least. It is one viable alternative which may or may not be the answer to SPS troubles of which there seem to be many. Of course, without study, no one knows how or where the split could happen or if it would be beneficial. Isn't that the point of exploration and consideration? How can it hurt?nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62263057037195963012015-02-08T12:45:30.355-08:002015-02-08T12:45:30.355-08:00Charlie is correct and I appreciate his passion,bu...Charlie is correct and I appreciate his passion,but it appears some are offended. It is my hope that Charlie tones it down a bit= he will be more effective.Mr Ednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26346448600519015272015-02-08T09:09:46.991-08:002015-02-08T09:09:46.991-08:00I like Charlie too. This district has been so exas...I like Charlie too. This district has been so exasperating, it deserves every bit of criticism he has thrown their way.<br /><br />S parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1369947408347874772015-02-07T22:08:37.710-08:002015-02-07T22:08:37.710-08:00Tone policing is both juvenile and annoying. Don&...Tone policing is both juvenile and annoying. Don't like this blog's tone? Don't read it. Whining about tone is one of the infuriating things about Seattle. <br /><br />I find Charlie a breath of fresh air. NW momnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7357488333036079612015-02-07T19:16:09.110-08:002015-02-07T19:16:09.110-08:00syd-ah yes, the "if you're not with us, y...syd-ah yes, the "if you're not with us, you're a'gin us trope. This is yet another way this blog loses readers-the constant refrain that if more than a few people disagree with the authors, then it must be a sooper sekrit orchestrated front of them durn "deformers". Oh PLEASE.<br /><br />I don't often post because I come to this blog for information, and much of it is good. But someone brought up Charlie's tone and some of us agreed. I am not a DFER, a LEVer or a insider in the evil halls of the Stanford center. I am just a parent hoping that my kid gets a decent enough education and that others in Seattle do too.<br /><br />My "mom's group' right now is discussing, among other things, special ed, facial hair and college planning. Some of these threads have brought out rare commenters but we're not sitting there accusing them of being spies for the enemy, just people who had something to say on certain topics. Why on earth is this blog so paranoid?<br /><br />Whatever. I really do believe that polite words get you more than impolite ones, but stating that apparently makes me one of the bad guys. <br /><br />Carry OnAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24806917084229417932015-02-07T17:09:47.146-08:002015-02-07T17:09:47.146-08:00That's why you do the analysis before proposin...That's why you do the analysis <i>before</i> proposing the legislation....<br /><br />backwardsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41023505804505798942015-02-07T13:30:27.297-08:002015-02-07T13:30:27.297-08:00I agree that attacking Charlie's tone is ridic...I agree that attacking Charlie's tone is ridiculous. He is actually a big sweet heart. Those who are fooled by a gruff tone are just that....fooled. And it sort of looks like some of the posters are protesting to much, as if they just came to denigrate Charlie instead of coming to hear policy opinions and share their own. Kind a looks like an orchestrated effort. But you know, appearances can be deceiving. <br /><br />P.S. Maybe Charlie did not leave because he is covering for Melissa...as a caring friend. Just a thought.<br /><br />Anyway, instead or in addition to talking about motivations behind the idea of splitting the district, why don't we just make a spreadsheet of the pros and cons of the idea? <br /><br />I agree that small groups can often self organize more efficiently. So for example, we might be able to move more quickly on book adoption. <br /><br />On the other hand, working on expensive solutions for small populations might be handled better by a larger organization. I don't think that is true for this 50K district when you look at Special Ed or APP.<br /><br />I also don't see a lot of equity in BEX funding.<br /><br />And the food program is not good. However much they are saving with economies of scale, it is not worth it. <br /><br />Are we actually benefiting from any of the theoretical benefits of a larger district? <br />sydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10969442768323513432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40962486093382783612015-02-07T12:59:40.446-08:002015-02-07T12:59:40.446-08:00This isn't about polite conversation or argume...This isn't about polite conversation or argument. <br /><br />Political landscape has changed and moved into social media. It's not political rally, push poll, knocking on people's door, kissing babies and buying TV and newspaper ads anymore. The money is on figuring how to get to you in your favorite comfy chair @ home or while you ruminate on the commuter bus with your smart phone. It's all about words. Lots and lots. It doesn't even have to be facts, just entertaining. Verbal jousting can be noisy and senseless because all it has to do is score a hit. Think of all the clicks.<br /><br />I teeter between cynicism and hope all the time. I hate it when people don't use the strengths of their position to win their argument. Insults add spice and have become an everyday, acceptable thing. You can be proud of having thick skin, shoving aside polite sensibility, be a tough, straight talking, make my day kinda guy (or gal). And while some are entertained by this duel to the death by verbiage, others are moving their agenda foreword. Do you really think our representatives are finding ways to vote up or down on a particular bill by shouting insult at each other? Theater aside, politics is about relationships-- making deals and finding odd allies. Rep. Pettigrew has fulfilled his obligation by presenting these bills. Next, allow the bills to die quietly in some chamber. <br /><br />BTW, ST, crosscut, and SLOG have been rather mum on these 2 bills. I find that rather interesting.<br />-voterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21606714219839900872015-02-07T10:43:36.293-08:002015-02-07T10:43:36.293-08:00All this call for polite, civil disagreement is pa...All this call for polite, civil disagreement is part of the problem, because is belies the fact that the proposals that Pettigrew is making aren't coming from an honest place. DFER and the LEV have been bleating about a "respectful dialogue" for years, and it's because most of their ideas are so prima-facie ridiculous that discussing them without mockery is impossible.<br /><br />Eric's not an honest actor on school reform issues. Pointing that out, no matter the tone, is fair and just.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01136112516250432897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56074153214978898082015-02-07T07:14:51.703-08:002015-02-07T07:14:51.703-08:00I don't like your words, your tone or your way...I don't like your words, your tone or your way of expression. Here is one for you, say that and walk away. <br /><br />If you agree on principal but not in manner then express how you feel but telling someone how to express themselves is so Seattle. <br /><br />I have no problem with him saying what he feels, this is his blog and he has that right. Just like it is his right to not print, to not allow comments.<br /><br />This thing where free speech is fine when you say the speech in a way that the nice people like or tolerate is just another example of why little gets done.<br /><br />Pettigrew was called a turd in a local paper he is a Politician I suggest one watches news to see the shit fly there when it comes to names. There are many other negative superlatives that Mr. Mas could have used and likely some have in the Seattle Times, ever read the comment section there?<br /><br />I don't always agree with Mas, he can be quite surly and when you disagree with him he of course turns that to being some sort of fault and does so in a manner that is less than simply disagreement in both "tone" or words. <br /><br />I actually find Ms. Westerbrook equally as annoying and I simply read the blog on occasion when these laws are presented as to find out the buzz as the Times does such a poor job of covering them.<br /><br />So I can disagree, agree and comment as I see fit. It can be deleted, denigrated or applauded. And I care about that not one whit as I know none of you in my real life nor you me. So opinions like words on the internet by strangers are utterly meaningless. Sticks and stones...etc... <br /><br />But carry on... next week's witch hunt will be something else and you will all have moved on.<br /><br />- Amused Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com