tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8169286863153438683..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: What's Happening at your Middle School and Spectrum?Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36667410291531817122015-06-02T07:20:16.768-07:002015-06-02T07:20:16.768-07:00A self-contained Spectrum program gave parents (li...A self-contained Spectrum program gave parents (like myself) the illusion, at least, that their children were working at a level appropriate to their capabilities. In practice this varied from teacher to teacher, and some years were not very challenging or interesting.<br /><br />Without a self-contained program, parents are going to have to monitor what their children are doing at school much more closely, and advocate much more frequently on their behalf at the school, as there will be a constant downward pressure on the level expected of students in blended classrooms. In my experience, schools hate it when parents do this and even with technology like Fusion and The Source, it can be very difficult as a parent to figure out what exactly their students are doing and being taught at school.<br /><br />If you get an unresponsive teacher who is just punching the clock, there's little to nothing you can do about it. You can ask to be moved... good luck with that.<br /><br />So like many other parents in this situation today, I suspect, instead of keeping our student in Spectrum, I would have moved to HCC, since that was an option. Now that our student has moved to HCC, we see it is not a rigorous as it was for our older student who already went through elementary school.<br /><br />Wallingford DadAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39087409755972283102015-06-01T22:16:18.777-07:002015-06-01T22:16:18.777-07:00"Too bad they don't think we "more e..."Too bad they don't think we "more experienced" teachers can't handle going back to teaching general ed." - s/b ". . . <i>can</i> handle going back to teaching general ed."<br /><br />VictimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45914994080846323372015-06-01T22:11:42.355-07:002015-06-01T22:11:42.355-07:00I was told when I first entered teaching that Hori...I was told when I first entered teaching that Horizon was the District's answer to "white flight." So Kellie has confirmed that. Also, my first job was at a school to which "Horizon" was moved the year of my first contract. I didn't understand then what I get now: that that school was a poor, under-populated building. Once it became a "Horizon" school, within a year it was well on it's way to becoming a highly-desirable school boasting an active and productive PTA. It continues to be in high demand to this day. <br /><br />Thanks, Kellie, for finally an informed recitation of the history of the program and it's raison d' être I've always wondered, and I sort of understand better the reasoning behind some of the changes. Too bad they don't think we "more experienced" teachers can't handle going back to teaching general ed. <br /><br />I want to add that teaching high achievers isn't easy. The challenge is keeping them engaged. Many teachers I know don't want to teach Spectrum for two reasons: (1) unengaged students become behavior problems and (2) parents can be fussy. It's hard work keeping up with high achievers - I don't care if they are top two percent or top ten percent. They are different.<br /><br />I guess I'm not a <br /><br />Victim after allAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61678910537440417432015-06-01T21:55:26.410-07:002015-06-01T21:55:26.410-07:00Those federal laws that protect students with disa...Those federal laws that protect students with disabilities from being warehoused are such a bummer.<br /><br />--enough alreadyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56425458497746550892015-06-01T21:18:57.821-07:002015-06-01T21:18:57.821-07:00So the idea is that Spectrum students are needed t...So the idea is that Spectrum students are needed to create a buffer so that the percentage of students eligible for special education services in a particular classroom doesn't exceed the district average. That's the criteria we look at when choosing an appropriate instructional model for advanced students?<br /><br />That's nuttyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25492294539881758312015-06-01T20:27:24.543-07:002015-06-01T20:27:24.543-07:00Charlie, the issue is that when removing kids in S...Charlie, the issue is that when removing kids in Spectrum makes a gen ed class go from an expected 10-14% (district average is 14%) kids on IEPs to 20+% and in some cases apparently closer to 50% kids on IEPs, then the kids on IEPs are not in "gen ed", they're in an inclusion class without the additional supports you'd expect and in many cases, it goes well beyond a standard "inclusion" model. <br /><br />Some districts do offer inclusion classes where they have up to 25-30% of the kids in the class on IEPs with a gen ed and special ed teacher in the room the entire time to support the group. SPS is...not doing that. Just throwing a gen ed teacher and all of the kids on IEPs into a mess. It isn't LRE and isn't fair to any kid. <br /><br />I think a lot of the self contained stuff just doesn't work well in elementary school, particularly not in the smaller elementary schools we have in Seattle. In middle school, you have enough volume for more segmentation without having such an adverse affect on others.<br /><br />NE Parent <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78090608015912022702015-06-01T16:21:02.786-07:002015-06-01T16:21:02.786-07:00I have the solution! Forced labor camp for spectru...I have the solution! Forced labor camp for spectrum kids- They could do manual labor until they are no longer ahead of the curve, and 16 hour days so they wouldn't have time to read. It would be kind of the opposite of what we did for children last century. <br /><br />Really, we should have some public protest truancy cases to make a point. If kids are not taught, why mandate attendance?<br /><br />-west parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31839704446713317612015-06-01T15:59:38.638-07:002015-06-01T15:59:38.638-07:00I think it's an interesting suggestion that th...I think it's an interesting suggestion that the presence of self-contained Spectrum in a school prohibits an LRE (Least Restrictive Environment) for students with disabilities.<br /><br />What, exactly, is the promise of an LRE? It's participation in an academic class with "typically developing peers"? Or am I wrong about that? Does the removal of the Spectrum-eligible students deny the students with disabilities access to academic experiences with typically developing peers? I'm not seeing that, but that appears to be Barry's position.<br /><br />Enough Already makes a much stronger case when expressing concern about the concentration of students with IEPs in general education classes after Spectrum-eligible students have been removed. However I'm not sure how the addition of students with special needs makes the class any easier for the teacher. Of course, there are those who contend that Spectrum students do not, in fact, have any special needs, which undoubtedly makes it easier to answer that question.<br /><br />In the end, the strongest case for dismantling Spectrum comes from Kellie: tight building capacities, and the fact that the students do not come in convenient 30-packs, do not allow for self-contained Spectrum. Too many butts; not enough seats.<br /><br />Regardless of the reason - legal, pedagogical, or logistic - the fact remains: self-contained Spectrum is dead. Perhaps it is time to turn our focus to something a lot more important than our arguments for why or whether that's a good thing and pay attention to what really matters:<br /><br /><b>How will our schools meet the academic needs of students working beyond Standards?</b> It doesn't matter why or how the students came to be working beyond Standards - aptitude, motivation, diligence, tutored up, whatever. What does matter is that our general education classrooms have a poor record of supporting work beyond Standards and little promise of improving that record. Unless you think it's okay for these students to go unserved at school or receive an inappropriate academic opportunity - in which case you're just wrong - you have to address the problem of how to serve them.<br /><br />So what's it going to be? MTSS? Differentiated instruction? Project-based learning? Individualized instruction by computers? Grade skipping? It's really a fundamental question of teaching, isn't it? How to address the various and wide ranging academic needs of a classroom full of students? If ability grouping is off the menu, then what is Plan B?<br /><br />I'm ready to concede that Spectrum is dead and HCC is wounded. So what can anyone offer to replace them? And, more to the point, why haven't we heard all about the replacement when the old solution was removed?<br /><br />The District has wanted to dismantle Spectrum since Olchefske was superintendent. He was open about it. I'll say the same thing I said back then. Before the floating bridges across Lake Washington there was a ferry service. The bridges are way better, but the ferry service wasn't stopped when the bridges were proposed. It continued until the bridges were built. It's okay to replace Spectrum, but it makes no sense to dismantle it until the replacement is up and running. The District is eliminating the current solution before providing the replacement. The cars are driving off a half-built bridge.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80722468106478002472015-06-01T14:51:06.957-07:002015-06-01T14:51:06.957-07:00Thank you, kellie.
It was indeed the NSAP that s...Thank you, kellie.<br /><br /> It was indeed the NSAP that saw the beginning of the end. Now we're at the end of the end. We can argue til we're blue in the face if it's for the better, but it is gone and it has been said here many times that capacity drives program design so it should come as no surprise.<br /><br />kittyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70729050469639393972015-06-01T14:03:10.131-07:002015-06-01T14:03:10.131-07:00@ HIMSmom,
As Mel noted, Spectrum was the replac...@ HIMSmom, <br /><br />As Mel noted, Spectrum was the replacement for Horizon.<br /><br />Horizon was primarily used as a desegregation program. We all remember these types of programs. Place an attractive program that focuses on rigor and place the program in a struggling, mostly minority and mostly poor schools. <br /><br />Spectrum was the follow on program. Spectrum was was very similar in design but placed at a different type of "problem" school. Spectrum was to be an attractive program that focused on rigor and was placed in "under-enrolled" schools and all over the district. In other words, Spectrum was not restricted to the predominately lower socio-economic parts of town. <br /><br />The distinction is that in the desegregation version, the program was (theoretically) strategical placed to mix up the socio-economics. Spectrum could be placed at schools that had a wide variety of causes for low enrollment. <br /><br />Guess what! Spectrum worked! (to solve that capacity problem, no comment on the other items in this thread) Spectrum schools tended to go from NOT popular schools, to popular schools with a wait list in under 5 years. <br /><br />Then along comes the NSAP and capacity issues and Spectrum effectively died with the passage of the NSAP. This is simply because programs like Horizon or Spectrum were designed to solve the problem of empty space at buildings. They were not really designed as AL programs. They were designed to be attractive to families that would most likely have moved to the suburbs or gone to private school. <br /><br />Now that we have mostly full buildings everywhere, Spectrum is a thorn in the side of the master schedule. With no comment at all about the academic needs of students and from a purely operations point of view, most buildings are running beyond capacity and any program that restricts the ability to put any student in any class, reduces the building efficiency. <br /><br />IMHO, you could have scheduled Spectrum's funeral during the change to the NSAP. <br /><br /> * First to go was 2-up elementary schools, because the spectrum / not spectrum split was too obvious. <br /> * Next was the 3-up elementary schools, because it was impossible to divide up the grades evenly. <br /> * Last would be the 4-up elementary schools, because they had some flex. <br /><br />I think middle school spectrum limped along a little longer because it was still "capacity controlled" for the first two years of the NSAP. In year three, al Spectrum students were to get spectrum services and that meant you could no longer build nice even class sizes. <br /><br /><br /><br />kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79693551494744092112015-06-01T13:34:19.625-07:002015-06-01T13:34:19.625-07:00Grade advancement might meet the academic needs of...Grade advancement might meet the academic needs of many Spectrum students. I hope that option is offered by principals who eliminate basic educational services at their schools.<br /><br />-West ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-627425917104296612015-06-01T13:17:49.489-07:002015-06-01T13:17:49.489-07:00`As all kids gain access to a more fair and benefi...`As all kids gain access to a more fair and beneficial education through LRE, areas like music, drama and sports are coming under increasing scrutiny for lack of inclusion.<br /> Much work to be done.<br /><br />PPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57534950715421559322015-06-01T12:50:30.787-07:002015-06-01T12:50:30.787-07:00Same line of reasoning. Is differentiation within ...Same line of reasoning. Is differentiation within classes illegal? What if one student was assigned a book to read but another was assigned a book at a lower level? How about if children were given different worksheets? Wouldn't that violate the right of the children to the "same" educational opportunities?<br /><br />This is silly, we must demand appropriate teaching to meet children's needs. We will be required to group at least roughly by ability because we can't afford a teacher for each student.<br /><br />Instruction is a time based commodity, how many hours does your child get if the instructor is covering 5 different grade levels of material in every 6 hour day. Is that fair to anyone?<br /><br />-West ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48780703143727157042015-06-01T12:48:05.106-07:002015-06-01T12:48:05.106-07:00HIMSmom,
Here's a link to some history of the...HIMSmom,<br /><br />Here's a link to some history of the <a href="http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED330766" rel="nofollow">Horizon Program</a>.<br /><br /><i>This evaluation of the 1987 Horizon Program, a program for gifted and talented elementary school students in Seattle (Washington), found that the program had little cohesive form or substance. Horizon was developed in 1977 as a magnet program to encourage desegregation.</i>Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91792299326594437642015-06-01T12:41:40.941-07:002015-06-01T12:41:40.941-07:00So your statement that self-contained Spectrum cla...So your statement that self-contained Spectrum classes are illegal is based on Nyland's remarks? He does not appear to be very well informed (see signing the Gates grant without board approval) or very careful in his language when speaking spontaneously. It's possible that OSPI has recently ruled that self-contained Spectrum classes are illegal. It's equally likely that Superintendent Nyland just finds them offensive.<br /><br />Schools do create self-contained classes for talented musicians at both the middle and high school level. Enrollment in higher level theatre classes can also be limited to students who have won a role in an upcoming production through a competitive audition process.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59106901388775773292015-06-01T12:24:00.816-07:002015-06-01T12:24:00.816-07:00Lynn,
I can't find a court case on this issue,...Lynn,<br />I can't find a court case on this issue, but one would think Nyland has something to back up his statement. It is logical that putting a third of a school effectively off-limits to sped by making self-contained "gifted" classrooms whose students meet no legal definition of "highly capable", would present a serious problem regarding LRE compliance.<br />A school could just as easily form self-contained "gifted artists" or "talented dramatist" classrooms that would exclude kids who don't pass whatever test the district dreams up. Spectrum is not a state or federal requirement, it is defined by SPS alone and therefore can't be used to deny LRE to SPed students.<br /><br />I'll keep looking for actual case law.Barrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82060906674811639182015-06-01T12:19:17.309-07:002015-06-01T12:19:17.309-07:00Thanks, Melissa. So it sounds like the program'...Thanks, Melissa. So it sounds like the program's origin was more a political or logistical decision rather than one based on student needs and best practices? Why am I not surprised...<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50471885892733044002015-06-01T12:17:00.553-07:002015-06-01T12:17:00.553-07:00good article on how gifted and special ed can be s...good article on how gifted and special ed can be served in the same classroom.<br /><br />http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/dec94/vol52/num04/Why-Gifted-Students-Belong-in-Inclusive-Schools.aspx<br /><br /><br />LPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78684358171374553032015-06-01T11:32:22.200-07:002015-06-01T11:32:22.200-07:00Barry,
Can you provide a link to something that w...Barry,<br /><br />Can you provide a link to something that would explain that? (Not intending to be argumentative - looking for info.) It seems that if this had been declared illegal I would have seen some mention of that. <br /><br />As for Nyland's showcasing McClure's change to Spectrum, he visits and reports on schools every week - this was nothing out of the ordinary. I am so far not impressed with his understanding of either the law or gifted education.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42373573255220435902015-06-01T11:26:56.360-07:002015-06-01T11:26:56.360-07:00HIMS Mom, Spectrum was originally a program called...HIMS Mom, Spectrum was originally a program called Horizon (also mostly self-contained). I'd have to go back and look at my files to see why the name changed. <br /><br />My understanding is that many parents of APP kids did not want to go to the one APP site which was at Madrona. The program did not fit the school and APP got moved with John Stanford himself saying that APP should never share with another school. (As well, there were parents who did not want to leave their neighborhood and objected to the long bus ride.)<br /><br />So you had some amount of APP kids not going to Madrona but who had to be served. Someone in the district decided to create self-contained classes at one school in each region. To fill them out, my perception is they took the next couple of percentage points down the list. <br /><br />There was nothing stopping the district by keeping the APP kids in their neighborhood schools and providing services there but it didn't happen that way. <br /><br />I don't believe that Spectrum is "illegal" but no, it's not under the WAC.<br /><br />Lastly, I am the moderator of the blog and I have the last word on what is and isn't on topic. I am not going to have people who don't sign their names make references to my life and my kids when they don't know me. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86536150824786520982015-06-01T10:55:32.841-07:002015-06-01T10:55:32.841-07:00If Spectrum is illegal, what about walk-to's? ...If Spectrum is illegal, what about walk-to's? If all the Spectrum-eligible children walk to advanced versions of their core classes, is that allowed? How is that really any different?<br /><br />Or is teaching kids at their own level no longer allowed either ?<br /><br />HFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54863927982615216382015-06-01T10:54:50.076-07:002015-06-01T10:54:50.076-07:00The conversation about what's happening in Spe...The conversation about what's happening in Spectrum really can't be isolated from APP/HCC. Changes in Spectrum delivery have created growth in APP/HCC enrollment, and the APP/HCC program is subsequently turning into more of a Spectrum level program. <br /><br />The district AL committees decided to make no changes to the identification criteria for APP/HCC or Spectrum. It's kind of a moot point. The discussion is about what's being <i>delivered</i> for those students identified as Spectrum level. For JAMS Spectrum students, they currently have blended Spectrum/HCC classes. For the most part, they are HCC classes in name only. It is not comparable to the APP/HCC program at WMS. Will WMS follow suit, and eliminate what remains of the APP program there? <br /><br />The posts that veer off topic are trying to correct the misinformation related to AL and Spectrum/HC. Delete if you must, but readers should be fully aware of what Spectrum is and isn't. HCC falls under different rules. <br /> <br />MS parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16565151242857111572015-06-01T10:44:52.004-07:002015-06-01T10:44:52.004-07:00Lynn,
Wrong, the requirement for LRE does in fact...Lynn,<br /><br />Wrong, the requirement for LRE does in fact make it illegal to have self-contained gifted classrooms outside of the HC program. Nyland made that clear. Spectrum has no legal standing in regards to being self-contained. It is not an option for any principal any longer. It's gone.Barrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88417390541522672092015-06-01T10:39:53.628-07:002015-06-01T10:39:53.628-07:00MW, in favor of future positive discourse I would ...MW, in favor of future positive discourse I would hope that you would delete all post about HC/HCC identification and delivery unless they tie back to the thread at hand: MS Spectrum and relevant facts pertaining to it. That should include everyone of enough already's post. <br /><br />-EEA Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6213141344363029882015-06-01T10:39:51.716-07:002015-06-01T10:39:51.716-07:00Do any of the long-timers know why Spectrum was or...Do any of the long-timers know why Spectrum was originally created? Was it an acknowledgment off the fact that teachers have trouble providing significant /appropropriate differentiation within regular classrooms? If so, it would seem that we'd continue to need something Spectrum-like, unless today's teachers are aldo magicians. Or was it created for other reasons? What were things like in the pre-Spectrum days?<br /><br />And Lynn, you said earlier there's no way to force principals to offer a self-contained program. Sure there is--the district just has to require it and enforce it. It requires a commitment at the top, though, which we don't have. <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com