tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8431868855410498052..comments2024-03-28T23:37:21.937-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: WASL BoycottMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger103125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37898131638305588812009-01-14T13:32:00.000-08:002009-01-14T13:32:00.000-08:00www.mothersagainstwasl.orgwww.mothersagainstwasl.orgnoggenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08620017486332264072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52278952817227920832009-01-14T10:36:00.000-08:002009-01-14T10:36:00.000-08:00I want to say thanks for those who have been havin...I want to say thanks for those who have been having a conversation with real information and questions about Lowell and Special Ed. None of us have the entire picture and I have found this dialog informative. <BR/><BR/>I don't know that much about it all, just my experience as a parent whose child attended Lowell APP for five years. There was a child in the Special Ed at the time who was autistic(?) and not integrated with APP kids as far as I knew. But his teacher got and used the regular APP curriculum for him. Was that the right thing for this child? I have no idea. <BR/><BR/>One year my son had a teacher who did show-and-tell every day. Each child had one day a week to prepare something and it was supposed to be thoughtful, not just a toy. The kids who took it seriously brought lots of interesting items or ideas for discussions. Anyway, a child from special ed who was severely physically handicapped but cognitively was fine participated regularly. I never fully understood how it worked because her communication skills were extremely limited, but parent volunteers and my son said that she really did participate and was able to share and communicate. (Several years later, when we toured WMS, my son noticed her there.)<BR/><BR/>In my experience, the APP teachers liked having these opportunities. Did it work out well enough every time? Did some teachers quietly discourage it? I really do not know. I never heard anything negative from parents or teachers. But I did get a feeling that we didn't see all sides or know enough, or were helpful enough. I don't know. <BR/><BR/>I can also see the point that Charlie raised though, that there are no classrooms of typically developing kids learning the alphabet or counting to 20 or listening to simple stories, things that might be very appropriate and helpful for some special ed kids for academic inclusion. <BR/><BR/>I grew up in a home with a mentally retarded relative. My aunt was severely mentally and physically handicapped. As a result, compared to my peers, I was more tolerant and less grossed out by unseemly behaviors, more patient and more capable of understanding someone with a severe stutter or other speech impediment. My son was able to get similar exposure at Lowell. As a first grader, he did tell me that he was grossed out by the special ed kids at lunch, but we were able to talk about it and move on. (As a child, I certainly was grossed out by my aunt occasionally as well.) The daily acclimation at lunch, at recess, the limited inclusion in the classroom, the volunteering to help with special ed kids in PE, all of that was valuable for my son. <BR/><BR/>However, I haven't the foggiest if it was valuable or the best place for the special ed kids. I wish I knew. I wish there was someone in power whom we could trust to make the best decisions for them.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79774864250408942832009-01-14T09:30:00.000-08:002009-01-14T09:30:00.000-08:00Ad Hoc,you wrote that:"Carla Santorno let the boar...Ad Hoc,<BR/>you wrote that:<BR/>"Carla Santorno let the board appointed alt school committee know that she was open to looking at an alternate assessment in lieu of the WASL. She asked alt schools to provide her with some data."<BR/><BR/>As far as I know, she did not ask "alt schools to provide her with some data."<BR/><BR/>As far as I know, only those on the committee heard this. Additionally, it was my impression that she would work with schools to develop these alternatives. I do not know that anyone (or her) got these conversations going.<BR/><BR/>I would suggest that this should be a board policy, rather than just conversations; as we see, know one seems to know about it.<BR/>Something as important as alternative assessments should be promulgated throughout the district.<BR/><BR/>AS1, I agree that now is the time to approach district with your suggested alternatives, and discuss with the CAO how these might be implemented.<BR/><BR/>I suggest that we take the focus off AS1; they have been the subject of this discussion for quite some time and it's a broader conversation than just one school's data and assessments.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86529341277999927022009-01-14T08:33:00.000-08:002009-01-14T08:33:00.000-08:00Sahila and Josh Hays, according to Seattle Citizen...Sahila and Josh Hays, according to Seattle Citizen, Carla Santorno let the board appointed alt school committee know that she was open to looking at an alternate assessment in lieu of the WASL. She asked alt schools to provide her with some data. <BR/><BR/>I know AS1 had a representative on the alt school committee. Did that rep or anyone else at AS1 follow up with Ms. Santorno? <BR/><BR/>If so, what was her response? If not, now might be a good time to do it.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43044452244223847162009-01-13T22:37:00.000-08:002009-01-13T22:37:00.000-08:00Even if a child is medically fragile, doesn't the ...<I>Even if a child is medically fragile, doesn't the law say they are to be given access to the least restrictive environment that meets their educational needs?<BR/></I><BR/><BR/>SPS does not consistently or equitably provide LRE. And they admit it. And the review spelled it out. At 30% are in overly restricted settings.AutismMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733034472823241389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22307508029349573632009-01-13T21:45:00.000-08:002009-01-13T21:45:00.000-08:00autismmom,What about LRE? Even if a child is medic...autismmom,<BR/>What about LRE? Even if a child is medically fragile, doesn't the law say they are to be given access to the least restrictive environment that meets their educational needs?<BR/><BR/>How is it permitted?<BR/><BR/>You might have already commented on this and I missed it, but that's outrageous. LRE puts that child in any damn class she/he needs, or it should.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36029312482308152552009-01-13T21:24:00.000-08:002009-01-13T21:24:00.000-08:00It is possible that the medically fragile program ...It is possible that the medically fragile program has a student without intellectual disabilities. And that is a very sad thing... the program is K-5, an acknowledged huge problem. That alone grossly limits cognitive growth, no matter who you are. The other 6 programs are for moderate to severe to profound disability... which implies deficits in cognitive functioning. It would be pretty sad if there's a student without intellectual disability enrolled. Extra Curricular focus (as listed by SPS): Language and motor development, adaptive life skills, self-help, social-emotional skills. Not much about academics listed.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying Lowell is inclusive academically. Only that they have been at times, and could be, just as well as anyone else. It's a matter of will.AutismMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733034472823241389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36922085679598960412009-01-13T19:43:00.000-08:002009-01-13T19:43:00.000-08:00wow."First, do no harm."Spectrum, Alt, "Regular", ...wow.<BR/><BR/>"First, do no harm."<BR/><BR/>Spectrum, Alt, "Regular", SpEd, Culturally Relevant, APP, ELL, ELO...<BR/><BR/>GROW the variety of programs, etc, that meet the varied needs of students! Pedagogy over the last half-century recognizes more and more needs. We used to GROW services to meet these needs, because it's the right thing to do.<BR/><BR/>But another way to educate students is to put them all in a little box and stand an automaton in front of them, regurgitating direct instruction without differentiation. This is less expensive, and in these lean times, what with a deficit and all, perhaps this is the way to go?<BR/><BR/>GROW the variety of quality education that meets students needs.<BR/><BR/>Meany Spectrum students are losing Spectrum? I hope ALL "communities" looking for the individuation and differentiation that meets the needs of ALL children will watch the doctors and get second opinions.<BR/><BR/>"First, do no harm."seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13378092723207813702009-01-13T19:36:00.000-08:002009-01-13T19:36:00.000-08:00Ad hoc, I don't know if anyone did, but the Alt Co...Ad hoc, I don't know if anyone did, but the Alt Committee wasn't making policy; it designed a framework and the CAO has the framework and can do with it as she will.<BR/>Not all alts were represented on committee, and conversations weren't promulgated to alts by the committee; we handed in the document.<BR/>So most alts probably are not in the loop, unless the CAO chooses to let them know policy and their options regarding assessment (or chooses to tell alts, or anybody for that matter, that perhaps the district would be willing to look at alternative assessments if they showed that GLEs and EALRs, etc, were being addressed.)<BR/><BR/>There was brief spat of organization of alts going on about a month ago (see:<BR/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seattle-alted/<BR/>but I'm not privy to any ongoing effort. I'd encourage it...<BR/><BR/>This tells me that while many alts might have assessments going on, some good, there is no clearinghouse for them, and many don't know that they might be able to use non-WASL. (of course, WASL is still a graduation requirement, but did you know there are alternatives to even that, at the state level? COE for Reading and Writing, full-year passing math classes for Math in senior year...seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4526715867603252422009-01-13T18:35:00.000-08:002009-01-13T18:35:00.000-08:00I claim no special knowledge of IDEA or the variet...I claim no special knowledge of IDEA or the variety of student disabilities at Lowell. As I say so often, I don't know the truth; I only know what the District tells me.<BR/><BR/>District staff tell me that they are looking for academic inclusion - beyond the social inclusion and other interaction with the APP students - for the disabled students at Lowell, and I have no basis for challenging their statements. They tell me that it isn't possible without general education K and 1 classes in the building.<BR/><BR/>Autism Mom clearly has in-depth knowledge of the situation and the students at Lowell and does have facts at her command to dispute the contention.<BR/><BR/>So maybe we should cross IDEA compliance off the list of possible legitimate reasons for the elementary APP split.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82209205017517915362009-01-13T18:21:00.000-08:002009-01-13T18:21:00.000-08:00"Lowell is an inappropriate special ed placement f..."Lowell is an inappropriate special ed placement for students who simply have emotional needs."<BR/><BR/>The emotional needs I referred to were part of a broader neurological problem -- I think autism, though I won't swear to it as this is all word of mouth. Perhaps practices have changed over the years, I wouldn't know. Certainly when I was at Lowell, much longer ago than the cases I was referring to, many of the students were of normal intellect but had severe physical disabilities (one of my sister's friends there had osteogenesis imperfecta, or brittle bone disease).<BR/><BR/>Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14605146744346885372009-01-13T18:08:00.000-08:002009-01-13T18:08:00.000-08:00Hmm. Many (if not most) students with mental reta...Hmm. Many (if not most) students with mental retardation have higher academic skills than those offered at Lowell. The district often uses mental retardation as a reason to place kids at Lowell. In fact, the district uses placement at Lowell as a threat to parents seeking something extra in their assigned placements. A really insidious practice.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As I mentioned, I have worked with a student whose IQ was in the 50's, (definitely retarded) who was not appropriate for Lowell based on the level of academics in the special ed classes which were too low for the child. (No inclusion requested here). As an example, this 9 yo can reliably count to 10... and unreliably count to 20 or maybe 50... Can unrealibly recognize and write all letters. Can read simple books (the sort with 1 line at the bottom). Lowell is an inappropriate special ed placement for students who simply have emotional needs. APP students with emotional issues should be served there.AutismMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733034472823241389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67357731402386476902009-01-13T17:36:00.000-08:002009-01-13T17:36:00.000-08:00It should also be remembered that special ed at Lo...It should also be remembered that special ed at Lowell serves a wide, wide variety of disabilities, some involving mental retardation, some not. I have heard of more than one case of a special ed student who *required* APP-level curriculum. (In one such case, ironically, the student was emotionally unable to handle the stimulation of a large classroom, APP or not, and worked on his/her own.)<BR/><BR/>Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8058676444852635562009-01-13T17:28:00.000-08:002009-01-13T17:28:00.000-08:00Charlie, respectfully, you've got it wrong again....Charlie, respectfully, you've got it wrong again.<BR/><BR/>First of all, a few facts... there are other schools which have level 4 self-contained programs (slightly higher level than Lowell). Guess what? They offer 0 inclusion to those students. Zip. Read the sped review. It doesn't happen. Does the district care one whit about that? No, it does not. Does the district mandate these other schools to do inclusion? No, it does not. Are students at Greenlake (same program as Lowell) given inclusion? No, they are not. Would it be easy to do at Greenlake because it has "gen ed"? No, it would not.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, I personaly know an extremely disabled student at Lowell who has indeed taken academic classes WITH APP. Science. That is "academics". It isn't "playing barbies" or "socializing" which also happen at times. The child is doing the same thing that would be available to the child elsewhere. So yes, it does indeed happen. What "academic skill" is this child working on? I do not know. They are NOT the same academic skills everyone else is working on by a long shot... and they would not be the same at ANY other school. So, why NOT Lowell? I'm sure lots of people think it would be inappropriate. But I could give you a long list of things this kid might be working on. It could be, for a hypothetical example, working on turning the page in a book... maybe it's just focusing on a picture in a book... maybe it's doing anything in the presence of normal language.<BR/><BR/>Of course, not every student at Lowell manifests the most extreme case of every disability. In the highest functioning group, 2 kids can talk (at a minimal level), not age appropriate level. No kid is beyond preschool (or beginning K)ability in any academic skill. Otherwise, they would not be there. Nor do they have access to classroom materials beyond preschool. (I've used that fact myself, to keep the district from placing kids at Lowell... and it was an effective arguement. It wouldn't be effective if it wasn't true.) EG. You can't place this kid from another self-contained program at Lowell, because Lowell has ONLY limited language speakers and because Lowell has ONLY preschool materials and curriculum.<BR/><BR/>So again I ask you, where is the elementary school that is appropriate for including students with the preschool skills? You are the one who said it couldn't work there. (And I hate using term "preschool"... because everyone is on their own developmental path, and a disabled 10 yo is never the same as preschooler.)AutismMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733034472823241389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45070696838269896172009-01-13T17:08:00.000-08:002009-01-13T17:08:00.000-08:00I have no special confidence in the District's sta...I have no special confidence in the District's stated need to provide general ed classroom inclusion for the disabled students at Lowell.<BR/><BR/>I was asked if I had an idea about what was behind the District's fervor for splitting elementary APP and I knew this was an item on their list. I pretty much reported the information as it had been reported to me.<BR/><BR/>The District folks I talk to say that they are specifically looking for academic inclusion - as opposed to the social inclusion they have now - and they said that they needed general ed kindergarten and first grade classes for that. Lowell doesn't have any.<BR/><BR/>This is what they have been saying for years now. It's not a new story.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58478309310667869742009-01-13T16:08:00.000-08:002009-01-13T16:08:00.000-08:00Charlie: I caution relying on what what SPS say a...Charlie: I caution relying on what what SPS say about special ed at Lowell. <BR/><BR/>Again, we don't know the numbers of children who might benefit from gen ed inclusion on an individual basis. Of 44 or so in Lowell spec ed, we don't know if the affected number of kids to benefit would be 4, 14, or 44. That's the problem with relying on it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-649115651049161932009-01-13T13:30:00.000-08:002009-01-13T13:30:00.000-08:00Seattle Citizen posted "The idea of this came up i...Seattle Citizen posted "The idea of this came up in Alt Committee, and Santorno, I think, went along with it: "show us data, show us how the alternate helps us see success, and you might be able to go your own way."<BR/><BR/>Did anyone ever follow up with Carla Santorno regarding this? Anyone ever bring her the data she requested?anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26644064771077275152009-01-13T12:56:00.000-08:002009-01-13T12:56:00.000-08:00The state accepts a variety of alternatives to the...The state accepts a variety of alternatives to the WASL, including SAT, ACT, and even AP scores (I would love to know who's out there flunking the WASL and yet getting 3's on AP English and calc or stats -- that's obviously the hardest option). The SAT and ACT cut scores are quite low.<BR/><BR/>Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28298896589629361542009-01-13T12:50:00.000-08:002009-01-13T12:50:00.000-08:00Seattle Citizen, that was my point exactly. SPS ne...Seattle Citizen, that was my point exactly. SPS needs to come up with some mutually acceptable alternate assessment, and AS1 has to be willing to use that alternate assessment, and make public the results. <BR/><BR/>I suggested earlier in this thread that after the alt school audit comes out, AS1 might consider staging a WASL boycott until the District comes up with that mutually acceptable alternate to the WASL. <BR/><BR/>"Mutually acceptable" will likely be a wide gap that AS1 and the District will have to bridge. I suspect that waiting for the alt school audit would be a good thing for AS1 to do, as it will likely support their cause to have access to an appropriate alternative assessment.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91101280564072853362009-01-13T12:34:00.000-08:002009-01-13T12:34:00.000-08:00ad hoc, good points...but at the moment there are ...ad hoc, good points...but at the moment there are no mutually agreed alternative assessments, really...The idea ofthis came up in Alt Committee, and Santorno, I think, went along with it: "show us data, show us how the alternate helps us see success, and you might be able to go your own way." But I don't think this has been a conversation, and schools probably aren't involved in this...so AT THE MOMENT there is no alternative.<BR/><BR/>Incidentally, the alternative to WASL for seniors not passing is Collection of Evidence for Read/Write, and full years of math for Math. COE for reading/writing is a state thing, not a district; students work in their schools and then submit directly to state.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45385368706732894892009-01-13T11:57:00.000-08:002009-01-13T11:57:00.000-08:00Thank you, Helen and Charlie, for pointing out som...Thank you, Helen and Charlie, for pointing out some alternative measures (DRA and MAP); I'll look into that!Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32031793761441016192009-01-13T09:33:00.000-08:002009-01-13T09:33:00.000-08:00Found the info on which schools are piloting the M...Found the info on which schools are piloting the MAP:<BR/><BR/>Nine schools are participating in the pilot of Measures of Academic Progress<BR/>(MAP) in 2008-09<BR/>○<BR/>2 elementary schools K-5 (BF Day & North Beach)<BR/>○<BR/>4 middle schools 6-8 (Mercer, Madison, Denny, Hamilton)<BR/>○<BR/>3 high schools 9-10 plus some 11-12 grade students in lower-level classes<BR/>(Cleveland, Chief Sealth, Rainier Beach)<BR/>□<BR/>Students are taking the computer-based MAP test in reading and math three<BR/>times this year (fall, winter, spring)<BR/>□<BR/>Fall testing was completed on October 24.<BR/>□<BR/>62 staff (40 school staff, 22 central office) trained on how to administer MAP –<BR/>more trained on how to use MAP data to inform instruction<BR/><BR/>Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71943354237104569242009-01-13T08:38:00.000-08:002009-01-13T08:38:00.000-08:00Just to add to my above post, I want to be clear t...Just to add to my above post, I want to be clear that like many other parents in the District I dislike the WASL. I think it is rather useless. I think anyone, everyone, entire schools even, have the absolute right to opt out of WASL testing. <BR/><BR/>I accept, however, that the WASL is what the District has chosen to use to assess schools, and that the majority of schools and families do take the WASL and as thus are assessed by the WASL. <BR/><BR/>For those that don't choose to use the WASL as their assessment of choice, WHICH I SUPPORT, there must be a mutually agreed upon substitute. Those schools and families must still be held accountable to meet standard, and be able to demonstrate their achievement to the public.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73517150103201721802009-01-13T07:46:00.000-08:002009-01-13T07:46:00.000-08:00"Do you believe that we should use the WASL as the..."Do you believe that we should use the WASL as the sole determinent of success? "We" meaning taxpayers, district, state and feds?"<BR/><BR/>Nope the WASL should not be the sole determinent of success. We agree on that, OK. Now lets move past that,<BR/><BR/>We agree that the WASL should not be the sole determinant of a schools success, and schools like AS1 have every right to opt out of the test. Here is where our opinions differ Seattle Citizen.<BR/><BR/>I believe that if your school "opts out" of the WASL, then you must provide, to the District, some form of mutually agreed upon alternate assessment. A school must be held accountable by some measure. <BR/><BR/>This alternate could look like the alternate assessments that the district accepts from HS students who don't take or pass the WASL, or it could look like what NOVA uses (I described some of that in an earlier post), or it could be a different standardized test, or???? <BR/><BR/>But every school must use something to show that they are meeting standards. AS1 currently does not do that, at least publicly. Believe me I have no particular beef with AS1. My beef would be with any school that refused to hold themselves accountable to the public that fund them.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49211985376993364132009-01-13T07:22:00.000-08:002009-01-13T07:22:00.000-08:00In a Strategic Plan update I heard that nine schoo...In a Strategic Plan update I heard that nine schools are piloting MAP this year. I did not hear which nine schools.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.com