tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8586523769777261086..comments2024-03-28T23:38:22.511-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Math Wars: I Guess It's Not OverMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81489407431040533432009-07-13T08:54:02.809-07:002009-07-13T08:54:02.809-07:00Fads could end with corrected beliefs<a href="http://mathunderground.blogspot.com/2009/07/fads-could-end-with-corrected-beliefs.html" rel="nofollow"> Fads could end with corrected beliefs </a>dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28873604514144414282009-07-13T00:32:36.074-07:002009-07-13T00:32:36.074-07:00Two highly esteemed educational psychologists have...Two highly esteemed educational psychologists have brought me to enlightenment. They explain how "Reform Math" started as well as why it does not work.<br /><a href="http://mathunderground.blogspot.com/2009/07/biologically-secondary-knowledge-takes.html" rel="nofollow"> http://mathunderground.blogspot.com/2009/07/biologically-secondary-knowledge-takes.html </a><br /><br />Now the district and the UW really have some explaining to do, if they plan on continuing their nonsense.<br /><br />John Sweller the father of Cognitive Load theory says.....<i><br />For several decades, the dominant theoretical framework of instructional psychologists has been various versions of <b>a discovery learning/constructivist teaching paradigm </b></i><br />and<i><br />Although the rationale made sense as a hypothesis, <b>despite decades of effort no large body of empirical evidence based on randomized, controlled experiments supporting constructivist teaching procedures has emerged with no credible body of evidence supporting the procedure. If anything, the evidence points in quite the reverse direction.</b></i><br />Now what will the SPS do? When one of the pre-eminent scholars states:<b><i><br />When dealing with novices in a domain, there are an overwhelming number of studies demonstrating that learners provided with worked examples to study learn more and perform better on tests than learners asked to solve the equivalent problems (see Renkl, 2005). This effect, called the worked example effect, has been demonstrated on innumerable occasions around the world. It directly contradicts the suggestion that students will learn more if they are asked to discover something for themselves, in this case a problem solution, rather than being presented with the relevant information by an instructor.</i></b><br /><br />I bet the SPS leadership ignores it as they are not connected to reality.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74306578841904388532009-07-11T15:16:39.345-07:002009-07-11T15:16:39.345-07:00Could this be that the UW science, engineering and...<b><i><br />Could this be that the UW science, engineering and math professors are countering the current math trends in K-12 schools and perhaps within their own institution, the Education Department?</i></b><br /><br />NO...<br /><br />This is a grant funded position and will hopefully increase student motivation through hands on activities and several outside of classroom projects, competitions, and activities.<br /><br />Unfortunately improving the defective SPS k-12 math program is beyond the scope of this worthy undertaking.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6778772690083137652009-07-11T15:09:04.875-07:002009-07-11T15:09:04.875-07:00Since virgins are no longer tossed into volcanoes ...Since virgins are no longer tossed into volcanoes we must also disallow the following:<br /><br />"Have UW math ed take over remedial math." <br /><br />The children deserve better.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11074764275468180422009-07-11T15:05:49.976-07:002009-07-11T15:05:49.976-07:00ConcernedSPSParent ,
Send me your email and I wil...ConcernedSPSParent ,<br /><br />Send me your email and I will send you what you seek.<br /><br />dempsey_dan@yahoo.comdan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51683320437280174482009-07-11T06:32:39.937-07:002009-07-11T06:32:39.937-07:00Maybe the math discussions at UW have become more ...Maybe the math discussions at UW have become more politicized...Looks like UW may be trying to fill in-state employer demands by incubating interests for future science and engineering graduates (who need heavy math backgrounds). Has there a been a decline in UW students graduating with these degrees?<br /><br />Check out the new job posting on the University of Washington Employment web page, UW Hires:<br />Job #55406 Government Relations/Curriculum Coordinator for Washington MESA (MESA stands for Math, Engineering and Science Achievement and they have heavy hitters on their Board of Directors) <br /><br />This is a grant-funded position to develop integrated materials (science, technology, engineering, and math) for K-12 use.... They are looking for someone with very heavy math teaching credentials to work in developing elementary, middle and high school "supplemental curriculum materials" that is "aligned with Washington's EALRs" for use in K-12 schools. The government relations part comes with "advocacy" in connection with "travel to schools" and "strategizing legislative campaigns"... "build district and state level buy-in"... <br /><br />Could this be that the UW science, engineering and math professors are countering the current math trends in K-12 schools and perhaps within their own institution, the Education Department????taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16113567168931120400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18675908685203844172009-07-11T06:23:31.365-07:002009-07-11T06:23:31.365-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16113567168931120400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11848173031705417072009-07-10T20:47:30.358-07:002009-07-10T20:47:30.358-07:00FYI Sherry Carr has finally decided to
have commun...FYI Sherry Carr has finally decided to<br />have community meetings;<br /><a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/board/carrcommunitymeetings.pdf" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"> HERE. </a>; a good<br />place to ask some questions on her decision to vote for the reform math.<br /><br />Also does anyone have references to<br />research on reform vs traditional<br />math results?. I've searched but<br />not found anything I'd feel happy<br />to use as a reference.ConcernedSPSParenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15225940383725947861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11764875702734033612009-07-10T18:23:16.993-07:002009-07-10T18:23:16.993-07:00"Have math ed take over remedial math."
..."Have math ed take over remedial math."<br /><br />!!!<br /><br />Oh, lord, no. A few sample classes, maybe, to teach them the error of their ways, but don't offer the poor students up to them altogether. <br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9541668701473159882009-07-10T18:02:16.478-07:002009-07-10T18:02:16.478-07:00Schinske! You're brilliant!
Capital idea. It...Schinske! You're brilliant! <br /><br />Capital idea. It would give the math ed folks some practice and some study specimens. Have math ed take over remedial math.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10513452799457302092009-07-10T18:00:25.150-07:002009-07-10T18:00:25.150-07:00SPSmom,
To clarify 57 Professors who are involved...SPSmom,<br /><br />To clarify 57 Professors who are involved with teaching freshmen level students in mathematically intensive fields signed a letter complaining about the erosion of math skills that has occurred in entering freshmen over the last 15 years. <br /><br />The Education professors have yet to admit that any problem, if one exists, is due to reform math materials and pedagogy.<br /><br />With the publication of the National Math Advisory Panel's report these education professors are becoming increasingly isolated on "Fantasy Island".<br /><br />On May 6, 2009, four apparently clueless Seattle School directors maintained their positions on "Fantasy Island" by voting for the "Discovering Math" series for Seattle high school students.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9754011948921973282009-07-10T17:30:10.851-07:002009-07-10T17:30:10.851-07:00The UW is a very, very large place ... and unfortu...The UW is a very, very large place ... and unfortunately the department that teaches education classes is NOT the department that has to teach remedial math, or that finds themselves constantly having to recommend students for same. <br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86432028780281903842009-07-10T16:18:43.228-07:002009-07-10T16:18:43.228-07:00I am confused. The UW is behind this reform math ...I am confused. The UW is behind this reform math AND complaining that students need remedial math classes?ParentofThreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15853045587227159562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39034417726372182982009-07-10T10:25:58.774-07:002009-07-10T10:25:58.774-07:00I'm in a different boat to many other people.....I'm in a different boat to many other people... I look at math and science and art and music as being foundational aspects of spirituality and creation... all of it is inter-related --- numbers, colour, sound, frequencies - are what the universe is made of... there was an artificial split between math-science/art-music, male-female created by religion around the 16th Century, from which we in the west are only now recovering... <br /><br />Vedic math leads back into so-called 'sacred geometry', which is what quantum physics is now rediscovering via its own route...<br /><br />There's some really way out stuff out there that's really exciting to watch being uncovered... and its exciting watching the mainstream 'discover' what alternative and other traditions have known for eons... its kinda sad that there has been so much resistance for so long - but then again there are vested interests in play interested in maintaining the status quo at all levels ...<br /><br />I know a Finnish mathematician working on an equation for consciousness, and an Australian scientist-artist who's working on principles of negentropy and parallel universes who bases his work on Da Vinci equations he corrected and completed...<br /><br />If anyone's interested in this stuff, email me and I'll provide the links..<br /><br />When I think of this stuff and how the universe just sings when the knowledge is allowed to come forward and be recognised and accepted, I am saddened by the limited experience of education - math and otherwise - we give our kids... <br /><br />We would be well-served to teach the math of other cultures - Vedic, Chinese, Mayan, Celtic, Islam etc... algebra/goemetry - the pyramids, Stonehenge, ancient astronomy.... its not as though only the Greeks figured this stuff out and that humans didnt have any concept of this until the Greeks came on the scene...Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40919986547000701962009-07-10T09:32:42.151-07:002009-07-10T09:32:42.151-07:00Dorothy:
I think there are a couple of ideas at p...Dorothy:<br /><br />I think there are a couple of ideas at play here which did not come out explicitly in my brief response to Dan. I think they are a bit difficult to grasp if not put in the proper context. So let me elaborate.<br /><br />One idea is the process by which mathematics evolved in different parts of the world. The context for vedic mathematics is embedded deeply in the evolution of Hindu religion through the last few millenia in the Indian subcontinent. Most math was used, to give a couple of examples, to calculate the positions of the heavenly bodies so an auspicious time could be found to perform a ritual, or to calculate the exact dimensions of the fire pit used for sacrifices. This is only relevant to a very small population in the modern context, and therefore I believe the reason to pursue it is only relevant to a limited group of people in another part of the world.<br /><br />The second idea is what should be taught as a mainstream mathematical curriculum in schools, and if any idea from any other part of the world can be used to augment parts of it. This is not limited to ideas from Vedic mathematics, but from all over the world. I have some Chinese friends send their kids to abacus classes, because they believe it gives them a better grasp for number sense (manipulatives, anyone?). But I don't know any who teach it to their kids to the exclusion of traditional math. Similarly, the schools I am familiar with in India do not teach Vedic mathematics in classrooms to the exclusion of traditional math. Everyone gets the same "traditional" math until 10th grade, unlike in many of the states in this country. The TIFR folks are scientists who studied math the traditional way, and they can see the limitations of what has been discovered so far. If there is an attempt in this country to teach "alternate" methods to the exclusion of building mastery in one, then it completely misses my point. In the age of globalization, "traditional math" is the common language of scientists and engineers through out the world, and we will be cheating our kids out of another tool they will need to succeed in their future careers. Once they master it, then it becomes easy for them to play with ideas that evolved in other parts of the world, either for winning contests, enrichment, or simply amusement.Sudhakar Kudvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668203988582650729noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54362617962901142372009-07-09T22:52:44.355-07:002009-07-09T22:52:44.355-07:00Vedic Math? Some tricks/shortcuts for special case...Vedic Math? Some tricks/shortcuts for special cases of arithmetic and algebra. Not unknown and you'll find some in American Math competition literature as well. But they are simply shortcuts for special cases, not comprehensive mathematics. <br /><br />Four thousand years old? Not everyone agrees. <a href="http://www.tifr.res.in/~vahia/dani-vmsm.pdf" rel="nofollow">Myths or Reality: On 'Vedic Math'</a>, by S.G. Dani, School of Mathematics, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research<br /><br />"It is not the contention here that the contents of the book are not of any value. Indeed, some of the observations could be used in teaching in schools. They are entertaining and could to some extent enable children to enjoy mathematics. It would, however, be more appropriate to use them as aids in teaching the related<br />concepts, rather than like a series of tricks of magic. Ultimately, it is the understanding that is more important than the transient excitement, By and large, however, such pedagogical application has limited scope and needs to be<br />made with adequate caution, without being carried away by motivated propaganda. It is shocking to see the extent to which vested interests and persons driven by mis-<br />guided notions are able to exploit the urge for cultural self-assertion felt by the Indian psyche. One would hardly have imagined that a book which is transparently not from any ancient<br />source or of any great mathematical significance would one day be passed off as a storehouse of some ancient mathematical treasure. It is high time saner elements joined hands to educate people on the truth of this so-called Vedic mathematics and prevent the use of public money and energy on its propagation, beyond the limited extent that may be deserved, lest the intellectual and educational life in the country should get vitiated further and result in wrong attitudes to both history and mathematics, especially in the coming generation."Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9443230339740535782009-07-09T21:34:04.310-07:002009-07-09T21:34:04.310-07:00Sahila thanks for expanding our knowledge.
Here i...Sahila thanks for expanding our knowledge.<br /><br />Here is the scoop on Vedic Math from my buddy Sudhakar Kudva PhD. born in India & retired from Intel.<br /><br />Dan:<br /><br />Yes, I was taught some of it by my father when I was young. It is based on the AtharvaVeda, one of the four sacred texts passed down orally for thousands of years. Most of the math is based on formulas set into very short two line poems, which are supposed to make mental arithmetic easy (remember, this math was invented before writing was invented). Once writing was invented, more formulas were added. Most of the knowledge was unknown to foreign visitors because the formulas were hidden as codes in religeous hymns, until a recent genius and sanskrit scholar (circa 18th century) translated them and condensed them into 16 overt formulas. These formulas are based on sound algebraic principles, and often times differ from what is taught today as "standard algorithms". This tradition is taught in some families with a long tradition of mathemtics training (temple priests, for example). In my opinion, perhaps this is based on four thousand year old knowledge, it is incomplete when it comes to advanced math. Calculus is absent, for example. Algebra is used to derive the formulas, but is not treated separately as a discipline. Geometry and trigonometry are only superficially treated, if at all. But that has not stopped people in India from using it for its strength - mental arithmetic. For example, I still use the reverse algorithm for adding and subtracting mentally (start with the highest power of 10 first), because it is faster. Many kids preparing for mental math contests in India use some of the formulas as shortcuts, with lots of practice, of course. And it happily coexists with the traditional paper and pencil math taught in all the schools. <br /><br />I guess this is more than you wanted to know.<br /><br />Sudhakardan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8856622115396403732009-07-09T20:19:57.307-07:002009-07-09T20:19:57.307-07:00@Sahila: Thanks for posting the Vedic Math link. I...@Sahila: Thanks for posting the Vedic Math link. I've just tried some of the tutorials. They're really fun. My daughter will enjoy them.WenDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07754473793580185814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34439808255845693732009-07-09T20:18:48.232-07:002009-07-09T20:18:48.232-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.WenDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07754473793580185814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79817394428295665442009-07-09T20:12:22.056-07:002009-07-09T20:12:22.056-07:00@Dan, everyone: New math adoptions for Northshore....@Dan, everyone: New math adoptions for Northshore. Math Expressions for K-5, and Prentice-Hall Holt for grades 6-11.<br /><br />http://schoolcenter.nsd.org/education/components/board/default.php?sectiondetailid=79066&threadid=4172WenDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07754473793580185814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-29190161791995011372009-07-09T20:09:48.542-07:002009-07-09T20:09:48.542-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.WenDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07754473793580185814noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86316349331576122622009-07-09T16:23:32.080-07:002009-07-09T16:23:32.080-07:00Dorothy,
Mike and I have seen some of the communi...Dorothy,<br /><br />Mike and I have seen some of the communications that are not yet public.<br />------------------------------<br />If the last half century of weather science had produced anything like the botched math mess created by Warfield and the US crew of delusional Math Ed professionals, I am sure Professor Mass would welcome comments from all. But that has not happened nor will it, because weather science is science. Results are important. There is international cooperation in an effort to make and sustain progress. Weather science is pretty much the exact opposite of what Dr. Warfield and her associates in math destruction do at UW.<br /><br />Grade 10 WASL 2008 Math 49.6%<br />preliminary 2009 result 45.26%<br /><br />No wonder UW math ed has an aversion to data it usually confirms that they are selling us snake oil. <br /><br />After the Cleveland disaster what credibility Dr. King may have had is gone. Key Curriculum Press is naming Dr King as an expert in determining mathematical soundness in their law suit against OSPI in Thurston County Superior court. Let me see do I think Dr King knows what he is talking about or will I go with the opposing view of the Johns Hopkins University Math Department head, who is currently on the feedback group for the National Common math standards.<br /><br />Dr King finds Discovering Math sound. My guess is he found the Cleveland program sound also as he created it and directed it.<br /><br />As long as Cliff Mass stays away from predicting 110 degree weather in Seattle for Christmas 2009 and heavy snow for August 1. He should be OK in his Warfield showdown, unless of course the Four Seattle School directors have votes.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57546480017074187562009-07-09T15:43:40.629-07:002009-07-09T15:43:40.629-07:00Vedic math has been around for 2,000+ years.... 16...Vedic math has been around for 2,000+ years.... 16 basic formula (sutras) open the doors to all higher math, and youngsters from around 6-8 are capable of understanding, learning and manipulating those formula....<br /><br />Wonder what benefits (math and otherwise) looking past western civilisation would bring our kids...<br /><br />http://www.vedicmaths.orgSahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59735153678139996152009-07-09T14:34:10.714-07:002009-07-09T14:34:10.714-07:00Dan, I am confused. Who is Mike? And we don't ...Dan, I am confused. Who is Mike? And we don't have Warfield's reply to Cliff posted here. (The link is to the intro to the Brochure, written in 2007) I have read one though, something she posted to the UW faculty list where Cliff's letter appeared. But I don't know if it is kosher to copy it here. She makes it clear in her note that she considers herself a researcher and she considers academic skepticism appropriate. (She also makes a dig at teachers.)<br /><br />oh what the heck. Read it for yourself. Admins can delete this if you want. I am not a UW faculty, a friend who is sent me the discussion. I won't say who.<br />------------------------<br />Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 00:37:23 -0700<br />From: Ginger Warfield <br />To: UW FACULTY DISCUSSION<br />Subject: Comments by Cliff Mass<br /><br />If a mathematics education researcher were to dismiss the last half century of research in atmospheric sciences on the basis that its conclusions did not agree with the conclusions he had reached from having experienced a great deal of weather, heard several weather forecasters who were only marginally competent, and found a collection of people who agreed vociferously with his views, I trust that this community would exercise a degree of academic skepticism that is also appropriate here.<br />Ginger (occasionally known as Virginia) Warfield<br />--------------------------<br /><br />I read this as she is stating that the last half century of math education research supports her position. I would like it if she could point us to the published peer-reviewed research so we can see it for ourselves.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80631265587895035622009-07-09T12:26:30.124-07:002009-07-09T12:26:30.124-07:00Thoughts from Mike...
It's telling that Warfi...Thoughts from Mike...<br /><br />It's telling that Warfield<br />chooses to demean Cliff Mass’s credibility instead of addressing his allegations on their merits.<br /><br /> Some could logically infer this to be indicative of philosophical & evidentiary bankruptcy in her position.<br /><br />--------<br />Dr. Warfield's reply is the equivalent of Nanny Nanny Boo Boo! I can't hear you! You can't talk to me like that!<br /><br />Since she cannot counter with substantiated facts of her own, acceptance of her recommendations hinge on continued belief in fairy-tales.<br /><br />Unfortunately there maybe more school directors like the Seattle Four who prefer belief in fairy-tales to addressing reality.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.com