tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8664910636318652079..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Burning BEX/Capacity Question?Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74252397255587847472012-12-08T10:32:10.853-08:002012-12-08T10:32:10.853-08:00And then there's McClure. Are there even 500 ...And then there's McClure. Are there even 500 students there this year? If that school pulled it's weight, you would significantly reduce capacity issues everywhere. How about put 1/2 of APP at McClure? That would do it. You can't have empty buildings 2 miles down the road and then cry about capacity.<br /><br />-XMcClureAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53583771880863189322012-12-07T14:30:05.753-08:002012-12-07T14:30:05.753-08:00I would suggest doing one of two things (both of w...I would suggest doing one of two things (both of which are more fair than trying to segregate APP 6th grade at Lincoln).<br /><br />First (from another parent's suggestion on another thread), move one entire department from HIMS to Lincoln. It doesn't make much sense to put science there -- since there are already labs at HIMS, but you could move social studies, English, or math. My suggestion would be math -- since there are probably also 4th and 5th grade APP kids who could use access to the middle school math classes). To make scheduling easier, I would only move ONE department (so kids don't have to make the trip between schools more than once a day). All HIMS kids would still be HIMS kids, and participate in their athletics, music programs, etc.<br /><br />The other solution would be what I understand to have been Charlie's suggestion, Pick the "group" of attendance area kids that is moving to one of the new schools when it opens, and put the 6th graders of that group of kids (WP@Lincoln, or whatever) together at Lincoln now. But, in my opinion, that would mean making Lincoln an "interim roll up" site -- so those kids would STAY at Lincoln (and the program would grow) every year until the move occurs. For the first year, you could, if you want, combine the two schools' sports, music, and art programs. By the 2nd year, I suspect whatever interim program is at Lincoln would be robust enough to survive on its own. But now, my question is -- is Lincoln large enough for a "roll up" interim middle school AND the north end APP program?<br /><br />As far as WMS goes, I can't see how we could alleviate WMS overcrowding by moving those APP kids to join the northend cohort -- because the north is where the biggest capacity problems are (so busing kids INTO that area would seem counterproductive). Will the WMS problem go away when they reopen Meany as a comprehensive middle school for the capitol hill/north central kids? Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9145643886628419332012-12-06T17:25:47.750-08:002012-12-06T17:25:47.750-08:00JA Parent wrote:
"The other thing that I don...JA Parent wrote:<br /><br />"The other thing that I don't think is well known is that some of our students walk 1-2 years ahead in math to Nathan Hale HS, so for spectrum and APP students, math-wise, it is a good option (as long as we are across the street from Nathan Hale."<br /><br />Yep. It makes a lot of sense to place a middle school building next to a high school.<br /><br />- Tired of capacity mis-management Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36485185098275616462012-12-06T14:31:14.229-08:002012-12-06T14:31:14.229-08:00Actually, math assignments at HIMS are not based o...Actually, math assignments at HIMS are not based on program. There are Spectrum kids in the highest level math offered, APP students in a lower, etc. So no need necessarily to repeat a year in math. Science may be another story, but I'm not sure how that curriculum lines up anyway. <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58106832327757254302012-12-06T14:27:43.209-08:002012-12-06T14:27:43.209-08:00I too thought it important to be in a comprehensiv...I too thought it important to be in a comprehensive middle school when I had a 5th grader. Now that I've spent 6 years in one & gone on the high school I have a different perspective.<br /><br />I don't think it damages kids to have fewer elective choices for one more year or even for 3 more years. The electives at comprehensive middle school do not match the ability levels of all incoming kids. Kids range up to 5 or 6 years apart in music, foreign language & math. That is why you have middle schoolers doing calculus in the back of the class. <br /><br /> And if you want to compete in music in high school, you will want to think more about private music lessons, lot of practicing & Seattle Youth Symphony. 6th grade music won't make up for that. Practicing 1-2 hours a day will.<br /><br />The other things you often get with comprehensive middle school is earlier exposure to teen issues. There's the girl bullying, the sex & the drugs & drinking. Not that every child participates in those things, but they will probably be hearing about it or seeing it more than they would in a K-6.<br /><br />I do not regret sending my children to a comprehensive middle school. But it was definitely a mixed experience. Looking back I think it would have been better to put it off a year. I also do not think the electives or advanced classes were targeted well enough to make a big difference.<br /><br />High school parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37278496737013947922012-12-06T13:57:03.626-08:002012-12-06T13:57:03.626-08:00We actually talked with the district about our wil...We actually talked with the district about our willingness to add 2 more classes at the 6th grade level next year but they felt that parents with younger elementary kids would be worried about it, from what I understand. The JA parents I spoke with were okay with it, even though most had K-2 kids. The other issue is whether the two programs can run next to each other in the same building. We do have an environmental science focus, which is the major difference, curriculum-wise, so our PROGRAM is opt in only. <br /><br />I do believe (although I haven't spoken to anyone at the district) that if more 6th graders opt into the environmental science program, they'd give us the teachers to take all comers at 6th grade next year. Those 6th graders could do their whole middle school in the program. In fact, I've heard that 5 class homerooms is the threshold for getting the variety of electives at the middle school level. (also, in case there is confusion, our 6-8th graders do rotate through teachers/classes.)<br /><br />I do believe, also, that we will have a decision made in the next few weeks about whether we'll be able to stay, so it should be known by open enrollment.<br /><br />The other thing that I don't think is well known is that some of our students walk 1-2 years ahead in math to Nathan Hale HS, so for spectrum and APP students, math-wise, it is a good option (as long as we are across the street from Nathan Hale. <br /><br />We really do understand the middle school issues in the NE and do want to be part of the solution. We think distributing our >600 kids into NE already overcrowded elementary and middle schools will just create a different crisis and not really solve the problem.<br /><br />So, we'd love to have more 5th grade parents consider joining us next year. (Heck - 6th and 7th graders could join us, too, and then wouldn't need to leave the program and, hopefully, the building until they go to high school.)<br /><br />~JA parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1805883846424986602012-12-06T13:26:14.634-08:002012-12-06T13:26:14.634-08:00@ JA Mom
That's super! I'm glad you are h...@ JA Mom<br /><br />That's super! I'm glad you are happy there. Can the building accommodate 200-300 more 6th graders next year? That would help a lot with over-crowding at Eckstein, and would probably translate into more elective choice for all the middle school kids at JA.<br />-North End MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85966127807347724792012-12-06T12:11:16.161-08:002012-12-06T12:11:16.161-08:00@kgroth and @North End Mom -
From North End Mom:...@kgroth and @North End Mom - <br /><br />From North End Mom:<br />"The bigger these schools are the more funding they get, which allows them to offer a wide-range of courses. They are also big enough to provide differentiation of instruction (i. e. Spectrum, Gen Ed, ELL, Sped), and robust music programs. Eckstein, Hamilton and Whitman are examples of comprehensive middle schools."<br /><br />Just for clarity - Jane Addams offers gen ed, spectrum, ELL and SPED. We've been very pleased with the differentiation (and I have an APP child attending JA.)<br /><br />~JA MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91534573772529692282012-12-06T11:45:24.915-08:002012-12-06T11:45:24.915-08:00Reposting for anon because it's a point worth ...Reposting for anon because it's a point worth understanding:<br /><br />"The idea that students have choice is false. If you are a current 5th grade APP student, you have already covered the math and science units that would be covered in the neighborhood school, Spectrum or not. You might have the option of doing the 7th grade Spectrum level math as a 6th grader, but that's about it. It would be like repeating a grade."<br /><br />--APP in ALOAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7971484081841176202012-12-06T11:24:30.623-08:002012-12-06T11:24:30.623-08:00No one is mentioning Whitman. I have heard from n...No one is mentioning Whitman. I have heard from numerous KIDS recently (ranging from 2nd-5th grade) who have said they are being privately tested to avoid the pathetic educational experience at Whitman. That is the problem. If SPS fixes the horrendous middle school education, people wouldn't need to figure out ways to get their kids into APP to avoid 3 lost years or debt for private school.<br /><br />And, from what I hear, Spectrum in middle school is a joke. My kid is in APP and I bet the majority of his "50th percentile" friends could easily do the work. UP THE JOKE OF A CURRICULUM FOR EVERYONE AT EVERY SCHOOL!Mass Exodusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62172547868156411842012-12-06T11:21:08.442-08:002012-12-06T11:21:08.442-08:00@kgroth
You asked:
"Is a comprehensive middl...@kgroth<br /><br />You asked:<br />"Is a comprehensive middle school where there are grades 6-8? Then is a roll-up middle school where it starts with 6th grade only, and they move up each year with a new incoming class to fill the lower grade?"<br /><br />I haven't been able to find a definition of "comprehensive" middle school on the SPS website (if anyone has found one, please post it). It is my understanding that a comprehensive middle school offers a "comprehensive" package of courses, i. e. a range of electives to chose from, including the choice of two or more languages. Comprehensive middle schools are not homeroom-based. They are scheduled in blocks, where kids change classes. <br /><br />The bigger these schools are the more funding they get, which allows them to offer a wide-range of courses. They are also big enough to provide differentiation of instruction (i. e. Spectrum, Gen Ed, ELL, Sped), and robust music programs. Eckstein, Hamilton and Whitman are examples of comprehensive middle schools.<br /><br />According to Pegi McEvoy, the target size for a comprehensive middle school in SPS is 1000 students. Big enough to provide all the services it needs to, but not so big that kids get lost.<br /><br />Comprehensive middle schools are the default route in SPS. They are also the route expected, and preferred by the families of children who enroll their kids in their attendance-area schools, as well as programs such as APP.<br /><br />It is great that there is room at Pinehurst and Jane Addams. Since enrollment at our north-end comprehensive middle schools is so out of control, you will no doubt have takers who are otherwise concerned for their child's safety at the crowded comprehensive middle schools. These families, however, are sacrificing the elective choice, music programs, etc... that were offered in the track that they chose for their kindergartner 6 years ago.<br /><br />Those of us who chose to enroll our kids in our neighborhood assignment school are not cattle following the route of least resistance. We didn't all go to our assignment school because we were too lazy to enroll them in an option school. Many of us are there because we want to be there, and we expected that a safe, educationally sound comprehensive middle school, with all the bells and whistles would be there when our kids moved up to 6th grade.<br /><br />A "comprehensive roll-up middle school" is an oxymoron. It does not exist.<br /><br />I hope that clarifies the need for comprehensive middle school seats in NE Seattle.<br /><br />-North End Mom <br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17280724587433904822012-12-06T09:31:42.924-08:002012-12-06T09:31:42.924-08:00It is just wrong that they use APP and spec ed stu...It is just wrong that they use APP and spec ed students to manage capacity. Been happening since they closed all those school that never should have been closed.<br />Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8208917096663472212012-12-06T08:23:36.453-08:002012-12-06T08:23:36.453-08:00The idea that students have choice is false. If yo...The idea that students have choice is false. If you are a current 5th grade APP student, you have already covered the math and science units that would be covered in the neighborhood school, Spectrum or not. You might have the option of doing the 7th grade Spectrum level math as a 6th grader, but that's about it. It would be like repeating a grade.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81079006759714472502012-12-06T07:42:51.655-08:002012-12-06T07:42:51.655-08:00So would APP 6th graders at Lincoln be able to wal...So would APP 6th graders at Lincoln be able to walk over to HIMS for music, so they would be able to be in an appropriately leveled class? Or will they end up behind their grade-level peers when they finally make it to Hamilton in 7th grade? What about language? Do they all end up stuck with 1st year language, regardless of appropriate placement, and then they lose ground compared to those same peers who get to start higher? <br /><br />I understand why those who love to use the "APP kids already have choices" line do so, but I don't think they really get it. For one, these kids didn't make these choices, their parents did. And it's no like they did it to be segregated, they did it to meet their kids' needs. But think about what this plan means for such kids--you go to APP because you are far ahead, need to move more quickly to avoid the risk of boredom-induced failure. So we'll take these kids, plop them in a limited-access locale for a year, then turn them out to Hamilton where they end up in more basic classes than many of their grade-level peers, who had access to those higher level classes at the outset. <br /><br />I think another thing people forget is that these aren't all current APP kids we're talking about, already at Lincoln. There's a huge influx of new APP kids in 6th grade. If it were me, I'd just opt for Spectrum in 6th rather than spend a temporary year in an elementary school with a bunch of kids I don't know but who already know each other and gave been together for years. That way I'd still have access to highest, level math, language, music, plus school clubs, the library, etc. Then I'd try to switch to APP for 7th grade instead, since I'd still have access and be guaranteed a seat. If many people go that route, how much relief would this "solution" really provide? <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73787449035415246402012-12-06T06:48:50.823-08:002012-12-06T06:48:50.823-08:00Send 'em all to McClure. There's plenty of...Send 'em all to McClure. There's plenty of room. APP @ McClure. What's not to love?<br /><br />-parent <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11253871508864223102012-12-06T05:40:32.729-08:002012-12-06T05:40:32.729-08:00As typical, I agree with Meg. Both Hamilton and Ec...As typical, I agree with Meg. Both Hamilton and Eckstein are challenges. <br /><br />Hamilton is projected to need 4-5 more rooms for 2013. All of the flex spaces (fancy name for the indoor portable option created at new buildings) have been used so there is nothing left. <br /><br />A few parts are missing:<br /><br />1) If the K-6 fails to attract enough students from Eckstein to move to APP, then the issue boomerangs back to Eckstein. <br /><br />2) While Hamilton has only 5 feeder schools, 4 of them are quickly growing and one is pretty stable. So this fix is BEFORE the huge growth at JSIS and McDonald move into Hamilton in 2015. So what is the plan for 7th grade APP and 8th grade APP. It is improbable that a one grade change solution will hold for long. <br /><br />3) Washington isn't getting as much press but is also crazy overcrowded. Is APP going to be re-united again at Lincoln?<br /><br />The problem is that there are THREE NEW middle schools planed for 2017, adding capacity for over 3,000 middle school students. It is unlikely that an ongoing patchwork quilt of short term solutions is going to hold for another five years. <br /><br />So while this is the first volley in the non-standard solutions, it is unlikely to be the last. So regardless of your opinion of APP, it would be wise for folks to pay attention to how this decision gets made because it is likely to set the tone for the entire batch of interim decisions until the magic BEX solutions appear.kelliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01322661098626555834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63193128897217264202012-12-06T05:10:26.697-08:002012-12-06T05:10:26.697-08:00The end of transportation grandfathering has to re...The end of transportation grandfathering has to reduce enrollment somewhere if it adds enrollment elsewhere, yet there is not one school in any part of the city for which the District expects any reduction in enrollment as a result of the end of transportation.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13351616721820613842012-12-06T05:06:41.258-08:002012-12-06T05:06:41.258-08:00A solution?
Any solution should treat all members...A solution?<br /><br />Any solution should treat all members of the Hamilton community equitably.<br /><br />The District intends to solve the middle school capacity crisis in the north-end by establishing new comprehensive middle schools at Wilson-Pacific and Jane Addams.<br /><br />The District intends to begin these schools at interim sites - Marshall and Lincoln.<br /><br />I would suggest that they form these communities earlier than originally intended and start using their interim sites sooner rather than later.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39161562874257612622012-12-06T00:43:50.602-08:002012-12-06T00:43:50.602-08:00Please excuse the typos, darn tiny smartphone keyb...Please excuse the typos, darn tiny smartphone keyboard.<br /><br />CCAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42195841226278584192012-12-06T00:34:28.899-08:002012-12-06T00:34:28.899-08:00Okay Charlie, it looks like SPS is projecting that...Okay Charlie, it looks like SPS is projecting that the incoming 6th grade cohort for Hamilton is going to be larger than the 8th grade cohort that will be leaving. Since there is no space to put portables, the district has decided that the best solution is to expand the APP program at Lincoln to 1-6 instead of 1-5. They can not move the language immersion kids because those kids are the neighborhood children. Hamilton is their neighborhood school and the only school they are guaranteed access to; unlike the APP kids, who have guaranteed acceptance into both APP and their neighborhood schools. As it sounds like Hamilton will have enough room for the neighborhood kids, should they be moved to Lincoln anyway, perhaps causing more overcrowding at lunch there, and leave Hamilton partly empty? How woyld this benefit anyone?<br />Given the problem that not all of the incoming 6th graders can fit into Hamilton, what would be your solution then?<br />Disclosure, I have two APP eligible kids who are attending our neighborhood elementary school, one will be in 6th grade next year, and Hamilton is our assignment middle school. We were planing to join APP next year, so I am not too happy about this development, but I do not see a more <br />palatable solution.<br /><br />CCAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45187117429105481192012-12-05T23:06:09.764-08:002012-12-05T23:06:09.764-08:00Charlie re slide 17
Special ed always clusters at...Charlie re slide 17<br /><br />Special ed always clusters at the least choice schools. Slide 17 does not even hint that there is will, let alone consciousness, to change that.<br /><br />writing on the wallAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47203307976774939252012-12-05T22:59:55.766-08:002012-12-05T22:59:55.766-08:00I'm new to public school lingo since my oldest...I'm new to public school lingo since my oldest is in kindergarten. Is a comprehensive middle school where there are grades 6-8? Then is a roll-up middle school where it starts with 6th grade only, and they move up each year with a new incoming class to fill the lower grade?<br /><br />With all the talk of portables, Pinehurst K-8 in Northeast Seattle has the capacity to take 100 extra kids in the building. We are currently slated to move out in 2014 (which could change) but for 2013/2014 we could help alleviate some of the middle school crunch. Jane Addams K-8 said they could take a few middle school classes as well.<br /><br />We plan to attend the Capacity public meeting on Dec. 11th to discuss further.kgrothnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10068730698219194162012-12-05T22:25:37.091-08:002012-12-05T22:25:37.091-08:00Charlie, I'm too lazy tonight to look again, b...<b>Charlie,</b> I'm too lazy tonight to look again, but I think the south end schools are where the <i>the numbers net out... </i><br /><br />Staff is figuring that getting rid of buses will return south end kids to their attendance area schools. Have they actually asked? No way to tell.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4388178082818767282012-12-05T21:36:04.329-08:002012-12-05T21:36:04.329-08:00Uhhh. Nobody has to be in a segregated APP progra...Uhhh. Nobody <i>has</i> to be in a segregated APP program. Those students already have the most choice afforded them. If they choose NOT to participate in APP then they can certainly attend their own middle schools. They are also free to choose and be selected at any option school. Furthermore, they have already selected a self-contained option and made that segregation their preference and priority.<br /><br />=readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14786076175546136142012-12-05T20:30:02.863-08:002012-12-05T20:30:02.863-08:00I notice that the proposal is to divert only APP 6...I notice that the proposal is to divert only APP 6th graders from Hamilton to Marshall.<br /><br />Why APP? Why not the language immersion students? Why not Spectrum? Why not general education students from two elementary schools?<br /><br />Why only APP? Why not APP and the language immersion students? Why not APP and Spectrum? Why not APP and students from two elementary schools?<br /><br />Is this a good way to serve 6th grade students? If it is, then why not do it for all of the 6th grade students?<br /><br />This certainly sends the message that APP is not an integrated part of Hamilton or the Hamilton community. Nice message.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.com