tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post8743534396726893458..comments2024-03-18T16:51:10.406-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Possible Outcome for GarfieldMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17389163981030235872010-11-18T19:23:29.710-08:002010-11-18T19:23:29.710-08:00"It is specifically a program to attract stud..."It is specifically a program to attract students who were otherwise uninterested. The appeal of segregation is strong, and the popularity of those schools AFTER segregation became available via IB is a testament to that."<br /><br />And your data about otherwise uninterested is? You have the stats for Ingraham and Sealth before and after IB?<br /><br />They are not segregated programs; anyone can take any of the IB classes. Ditto on AP. Sorry, this one doesn't hold water.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13862859775727401292010-11-17T20:45:18.575-08:002010-11-17T20:45:18.575-08:00I agree. That's why we don't need a progr...I agree. That's why we don't need a program to segregate students or create schools within schools. It is specifically a program to attract students who were otherwise uninterested. The appeal of segregation is strong, and the popularity of those schools AFTER segregation became available via IB is a testament to that.<br /><br />Seattle ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73763250304507813152010-11-17T19:43:05.909-08:002010-11-17T19:43:05.909-08:00"Better yet, ditch IB all together. Isn't..."Better yet, ditch IB all together. Isn't that just a gimmick to get kids to go to unpopular schools? A way to say, "You can go here but won't have to go to school with any losers."<br /><br />It's hard to know where to start on that statement. First, IB is a rigorous and recognized program throughout the world. Any student within the school can access an IB classes so that rigor is available to all (and some may want the whole program). Ingraham's program is doing quite well from reports I hear from friends at Ingraham.<br /><br />Second, well, Ingraham and Chief Sealth may not be the most popular schools but their students like them. Both are at least 2/3rd to 3/4ths full and probably will be full when both have finished their building. <br /><br />Third, I think it unkind to call any student a "loser".Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66050587062499987132010-11-17T19:08:28.274-08:002010-11-17T19:08:28.274-08:00We don't need IB, that's the point. If p...We don't need IB, that's the point. If people need/want advanced classes or a variety of interesting classes, then offer them and of course, they're all opt-in. No, the district shouldn't have it's hands tied into doing some sort of diploma. We were talking about filling schools up with extended scheduling.. closing a few schools. So, fill them up and drop the IB. That would be my suggestion.<br /><br />Seattle ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21522744252948759052010-11-17T18:43:25.488-08:002010-11-17T18:43:25.488-08:00Seattle Parent: I am not sure I understand your po...Seattle Parent: I am not sure I understand your point. Do you think they should have put IB everywhere? Nowhere? At least at Garfield, AP classes are ALL opt in (again, you have to have done the pre-reqs; woe to anyone short of a math genius who "opts into" AP Calc without having done honors pre-Calc first). But I think that is the way they do IB. You can take the classes if you want. You can also "sign up" to do the whole program, and get the extra "diploma" if you want -- the advantages, I think, would be that if you have opted for the whole thing, the school needs to be committed to making sure you can be scheduled for all the classes, etc. But I think SSD tries really hard to NOT be exclusive (unlike some places, which I think require kids to test in and/or commit to the entire program, or they are not allowed to take the classes. <br /><br />As for program placement, yes -- I agree it was drawn to try to make those two schools more attractive. It appears it may have worked at Sealth, but the jury is out (or worse) at Ingraham. Does that seem right?Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48553443901507447782010-11-17T18:19:14.956-08:002010-11-17T18:19:14.956-08:00And IB WAS put a Sealth to draw students to an oth...And IB WAS put a Sealth to draw students to an otherwise sucky school nobody would step foot in. Why else would you have it?<br /><br />So, what's wrong with "opt in" AP classes? Opt in anywhere and any way you like, not a school within a school concept. Much better than some hoaky diploma. What's wrong wrong with electives across a broad spectrum without the IB or AP or other prefab coursework? And, they only put IB at Sealth and Ingraham, 2 of the least popular schools around. That should give everybody a pause... because otherwise nobody would go to these schools.<br /><br />Seattle ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85962900825988659022010-11-17T17:51:41.152-08:002010-11-17T17:51:41.152-08:00IB is along the lines of the 'opt-in spectrum&...IB is along the lines of the 'opt-in spectrum' many parents want. It is a curriculum that is internationally standardized and heavy on liberal arts and languages. It is based on the university track of the French school system. Teachers and schools have to be certified by the IB organization. One of the things I like about it is that they have to use IB math.<br /><br />I have a relative who did IB in France years ago, and who was offered Junior standing at middle-of-the-road American universities (Foo State U, rather than U of Foo or name-brand private).<br /><br />IB in Seattle starts in 11th grade, though the program is specified all the way down to pre-school. I'm guessing that 2 years is the minimum to earn the diploma. Seattle IB schools allow anyone who wants to take an IB class to take one. Some do have pre-requisites. To get the diploma you also have to do a senior paper (or project? not sure). It's more integrated than AP, and some think the classes offer more depth.<br /><br />So, I don't think it's really about finding a cohort so much as about opt-in rigor -- which would be a good thing for Franklin, and might fit well with the humanties track they already have there.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89711811428979213642010-11-17T16:29:24.485-08:002010-11-17T16:29:24.485-08:00Anonymous: I don't think IB is inherently a b...Anonymous: I don't think IB is inherently a bogus draw to lure snooty kids to otherwise bad schools. It is a pretty rigid program, doesn't start until 11th grade (at least that is my understanding), and isn't for everyone -- but there are lots of kids (and schools) for whom it has worked very well to provide challenging, rigorous courses. <br /><br />It WAS put into Ingraham to help "draw" kids there -- but if they had tried to put it into a crowded school (like Ballard or RHS), people would have complained then that the "haves" were getting even more, while the "have nots" starved. <br /><br />If people like and use the program -- and it seems they do, both at Ingraham and at Sealth, I think we should keep it. There is a lot wrong with some AP classes as well (many are a mile wide and an inch deep, offering very little time for in depth thinking or writing). And IB is not a "test in" program -- it is available to any student who can, and will, carry the workload.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4796494263075097182010-11-17T16:22:59.294-08:002010-11-17T16:22:59.294-08:00It has occurred to me before (and I know for a fac...It has occurred to me before (and I know for a fact that it has occurred to people in SSD management, though I don't have their permission to identify them) that maybe the right thing for RBHS, if the District really does refuse to commit resources in a thoughtful, intelligent way, to improve its academics and its draw, is to close it -- but boy, would I want to hear from the RBHS community before jumping to that conclusion as as solution. <br /><br />As someone above pointed out, maybe we leave Ingraham and Hale because the "mega high school" option does not work well for everyone, and it is nice to have a smaller school option, especially if you put in some sort of program or draw that gives it its own personality/identity -- sort of like Hale with the radio program, the fewer class hours with more built in collaboration time for teachers (and more study time for students), etc. I don't know what the right program for that school might be. <br /><br />But I know how much people identify with their schools, and I would sure want to think this one through with RBHS families and alumni, before making a decision. Given the performing arts center down there, maybe it should be turned into a smaller option high school with an arts and arts technology draw (everything from theater to dance, to music, to video game development, choreography, performance production, film and video, light and sound design, etc.). I know Ballard does some of this as well (at least video), but that is not an accessible school for a lot of kids.<br /><br />And, with a little thought and planning, you could even have those kids take some of their classes (maybe core stuff, or more specialized AP classes that might not be available in a "small school" at Franklin -- using metro or shuttle bus service -- because it is a straight shot down Rainier Avenue from one school to the other. This would have three benefits:<br />1. It would keep the school and its resources (the performing arts center, etc.) "alive" <br />2. It would allow RBHS community kids who want to go there to continue to "choose" the school, while at the same time going to classes (like math, science, AP language arts, etc.) in a building that has more choices and (maybe) a better learning/discipline dynamic.<br />3. It even maybe does that "presto chango" test score thing that SSD likes so well where higher performing kids replace, or dilute lower scoring kids -- and the school test scores magically "improve" (sounds of applause). In other words -- we still need to keep track of the struggling kids, be they from RBHS, GHS, or Franklin, and provide intervention to help them learn. Except to the extent that going to classes with higher achieving kids might have a good effect (and the risk of getting lost in a bigger school might have a bad effect), I think the plan is neutral on that -- which of course is the most important thing. But with this administration, neutral is actually good, since so much of what they do is make good, working schools and programs bad or worse.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73651896614585632052010-11-17T15:29:29.215-08:002010-11-17T15:29:29.215-08:00Better yet, ditch IB all together. Isn't tha...Better yet, ditch IB all together. Isn't that just a gimmick to get kids to go to unpopular schools? A way to say, "You can go here but won't have to go to school with any losers." High schools where I grew up had around 3,000 students and had multiple shifts too. I like the idea if it expands the range of kids that can be served, and reduces number of buildings. But not if it is simply an extension of an entitlement program like APP for a select, but every growing, few.<br /><br />Seattle ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11168787133170982582010-11-17T10:21:19.428-08:002010-11-17T10:21:19.428-08:00Or you could go even farther:
7-4 day at Ballard,...Or you could go even farther:<br /><br />7-4 day at Ballard, Roosevelt, Garfield, Franklin<br /><br />Move IB from Ingraham to Franklin<br /><br />Close Beach and Ingraham.<br /><br />Now that would save some money, including the Ingraham remodel.<br /><br />Probably too radical, but an interesting thought exercise...TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-969523269470681962010-11-17T09:56:53.886-08:002010-11-17T09:56:53.886-08:00BTW, that high school, Berkeley High in Berkeley C...BTW, that high school, Berkeley High in Berkeley CA, had around 4000 students when I went there. 1700 is hardly "mega." The choice of electives was amazing, and many graduates went on to very good colleges.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59904091137949795832010-11-17T09:50:18.498-08:002010-11-17T09:50:18.498-08:00My high school did this too, and it worked quite w...My high school did this too, and it worked quite well. There were 10 periods a day, plus after school sports. "00" period started at 7, but most kids started at 8 or 9 (1st or 2nd period). 9th period ended at 3:15 or 3:30, and sports started after that. There were 2 lunch periods. Some kids had double lunch, others had free periods or study halls, or took an aditional elective. I had a friend who graduated a whole year early by doing 1-9 for 3 years and going to summer school. This school regularly had teen moms graduating on time after doing make-up classes (it hosted a multi-city magnet program for them). The longer day offered a lot of flexibility. A longer, more flexible high school day is not simply a capacity management strategy. It makes for a better, more inclusive high school.<br /><br />Another thought...<br />If Garfield, Franklin and Roosevelt all did double shifts, would that free up enough capacity to close Rainier Beach? That actualy could save some real money, and give many families what they keep asking for: Access to Franklin and Garfield. With STEM in the mix, that would give every kid in the south east the option a good assignment school and a good nearby option school.<br /><br />Roosevelt could then take part of the Ballard attendance area, and the Ballard boundary could move north a bit. Maybe Ballard could do double shift as well, but that might make too much capacity. I don't think either Ingraham or Hale is in bad enough shape to close, and some kids seem to really prefer these schools to the "big 3."<br /><br />I would also beef up the liberal arts program at Franklin (it used to have a very well-regarded classics program, could that be resurected?) or add IB at Franklin, to make that a good choice for kids with a liberal arts bent. Franklin is a really good location for public transit, so it makes sense to have some sort of a draw there.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18729122226459545552010-11-16T21:55:54.340-08:002010-11-16T21:55:54.340-08:00Jan,
I get what you are saying and I think it is g...Jan,<br />I get what you are saying and I think it is great that our district has made a place for NOVA and Center School. However, opening a double-shift mega Garfield – a comprehensive high school - does not fall under the same category. Double-shifting Garfield, or Ballard, or Roosevelt means that we will continue to run some buildings into the ground at a double-time pace (and we all know how great SPS is on facilities management!), while others are being heated, staffed, insured, equipped and secured at only 1/3 or ½ capacity. It does not make fiscal sense. <br /><br />It also does not make sense from a standpoint of looking at the district as a whole unless SPS decides to double-shift all popular high schools. Go ahead and try to justify double-shifting Garfield to the folks in the Ballard areas who are now assigned to Ingraham. Why should those Ballard kids be shipped off to Ingraham when we can just double-shift that school too? Is that what you are advocating? <br /><br />Some of this may stem from the question I have about this statement: “why does that seem absurd, if in fact it gives the maximum kids the best (as determined by them) choice for a school? The goal here is not simply to get X bodies into X seats into brick building A or B. The goal is to maximize the learning of all the kids in the city”. Can you clarify, because what I don’t understand is how you would draw the boundaries for such a school? What would be the “maximum” number of kids? If I am in the Franklin area and think that Garfield would maximize my learning, why can’t I become a Bulldog? If I live in Lake City, but want access to a “nationally known high school orchestra” can I go to mega –Garfield too? Unless I misunderstand you (entirely possible) what is described above appears to me to be our previous assignment plan – one in which people were free to TRY for a school that they felt would maximize their learning. The results though, were far from perfect. <br /><br />MooseMoosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14000546753926356080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28241288829433925122010-11-16T18:52:44.181-08:002010-11-16T18:52:44.181-08:00Moose: why does that seem absurd, if in fact it g...Moose: why does that seem absurd, if in fact it gives the maximum kids the best (as determined by them) choice for a school? The goal here is not simply to get X bodies into X seats into brick building A or B. The goal is to maximize the learning of all the kids in the city (acknowledging that there are lots of different kinds of kids, with LOTS of different needs and strengths. Some programs work best (NOVA) if they are kept fairly small -- and we (at least I) don't begrudge that. I think it is fabulous that we HAVE a NOVA. Some programs (and a large school seeking to maximize the number of AP classes, access to a nationally known high school orchestra, etc. might well be one of them) may reasonably decide that to fit ALL its programs and serve the ridiculously large attendance area drawn for it -- its best option is to go with a split schedule.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13916274268833284802010-11-16T18:03:58.822-08:002010-11-16T18:03:58.822-08:00But really, how can we justify running a double-sh...But really, how can we justify running a double-shift at one high school when others are running at 1/3 capacity? That seems absurd.Moosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14000546753926356080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76558207072223269962010-11-16T16:48:02.765-08:002010-11-16T16:48:02.765-08:00This is exactly what I did when I was in high scho...This is exactly what I did when I was in high school. We had a building that was originally built for 10-12 -- but 9th grade was moved in without renovating. In 9th grade I went to school from 11am-4pm -- then gradually rearranged my schedule as I got older to going from 7:15am-1pm as a senior. I think we had something like a 8-9 period day.<br />I think it really worked well - and I participated in after school sports everyday so it wasn't a problem.<br />It could work - if the district is truly interested in solving the problem without heaving out APP.CCMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07038994914929300444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70186014949759705232010-11-16T16:32:43.091-08:002010-11-16T16:32:43.091-08:00Kay talked aobut how athletics, music, etc could f...Kay talked aobut how athletics, music, etc could for the most part be accomodated. And kids would overlap in the middle of the day - she suggested some kids would start period 1, some period 2, some period 3, etc - and kids could take more than 6 classes, or have extra study hall for tutoring. It would efficiently use the building - she was very excited about this option, and really sold it well -Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73778402628370437252010-11-16T16:23:45.971-08:002010-11-16T16:23:45.971-08:00A staggered schedule could work, but it's not ...A staggered schedule could work, but it's not without any downsides: e.g., wouldn't truancy increase if lots of students were leaving the house after their parents leave for work? ("It's okay, Mom, I don't have class until ten," snore). Would students have access to only half the available activities, depending on which schedule they were on? Would students be separated from their friends? What about things like scheduling band/orchestra classes, which are likely to involve students from every grouping (early/late schedule, different grades, etc.)? How would athletics be affected? <br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26476073581523632742010-11-16T16:02:44.500-08:002010-11-16T16:02:44.500-08:00I have never understood why high schools don't...I have never understood why high schools don't have flexible schedules. It would help with overcrowding, teen sleep patterns, work schedules, teen parents, catchup classes, in school homework help & tutoring, etc. <br /><br />There should also be more course flexibility with online classes available and various classes to catch up or work ahead. There should be evening classes. <br /><br />If we want more kids to graduate, we need to offer more options and more chances. Same thing for kids working ahead.<br /><br />Rose MAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44965660162436211002010-11-16T15:33:03.404-08:002010-11-16T15:33:03.404-08:00Anonmyous @ 2:52
I LOVE the idea of a staggered s...Anonmyous @ 2:52 <br />I LOVE the idea of a staggered schedule at the high school level. That is the kind of innovation that I'm looking for, not just as a solution to overcrowding, but as a step towards <i>rethinking</i> schools. Of course there are additional costs, but they may balance w/ the ability to serve more students at a single facility. Plus, it could address the biological sleep patterns of teens, allow more options for core academics AND electives, create scheduling flexibility for athletics and work... Done right <br />(with support staff and community involvement), this is my favorite "magic bullet" for improving high school outcomes.owlhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630051682382673928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24093239615795792662010-11-16T14:52:54.740-08:002010-11-16T14:52:54.740-08:00Kay Smith-Blum was talking about a staggered sched...Kay Smith-Blum was talking about a staggered schedule that could accomodate all kids at Garfield at the meeting last night - sounds like an interesting option. What do people think about that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17877456120525981302010-11-16T11:40:13.152-08:002010-11-16T11:40:13.152-08:00Techymom and Dorothy, I think the trend is more li...Techymom and Dorothy, I think the trend is more likely to reflect changes in the surrounding population, not a trend of AA deselecting the school. My own south Seattle experience, where I live, work, shop and engage in community activities has shown that the neighborhoods south of the Ship Canal are becoming whiter by the year. 10 years ago I was usually the only white person on the bus, the only white person in the store and the only white parent at my daughter's recreational classes. Things are very, very different now.<br /><br />Many, many AA families have moved south-to Renton, Federal Way and Kent. Of course, that's what certain south Seattle blog commenters keep hoping will happen to ALL of them, but that's a whole other topic on a whole other blog. <br /><br />And Dorothy, Charlie was pretty clear that he didn't expect the previous population to remain, so no, while he didn't say ALL AA students would be replaced, the blanket replacement of the population theory, for now, seems to have not held up.<br /><br />And do I think APP parents (or any other predominantly white parent group) will choose STEM at Cleveland in large numbers? Nope, I do not. They won't as long as the population is the way it is right now. White parents stay away from south Seattle schools in droves, no matter what they have to offer-without ever setting foot in them. I don't expect Cleveland to be any different.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80915088062844423472010-11-16T11:06:03.635-08:002010-11-16T11:06:03.635-08:00It might be a trend. Even if it is, I'd be cu...It might be a trend. Even if it is, I'd be curious to see how the trend maps to trends in demographics of the surrounding neighborhood. I know my neighborhood (Madison Valley) has many fewer african american families than it did when I moved here 10 years ago. Is that also true further south? 2010 census data is coming soon, so then we'll know.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24840739972586500302010-11-16T10:19:46.446-08:002010-11-16T10:19:46.446-08:002008, CHS was 53% Af Am
2009, CHS was 46% Af Am (4...2008, CHS was 53% Af Am<br />2009, CHS was 46% Af Am (41% of 9th graders)<br />2010 CHS is 44% Af Am (39% of 9th graders)<br /><br />Is that a trend?Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.com