tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post9151865010864390052..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: So My Child Will Be Moving. . . AgainMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13904665540006703532008-12-12T15:33:00.000-08:002008-12-12T15:33:00.000-08:00And Danny, you hit the nail on the head. I got ac...And Danny, you hit the nail on the head. I got active in this district, many years ago, about what I thought were major flaws in the Spectrum program. What I found is that the gifted program has never had, in any Superintendent, Academic Director or Board member, a champion. Dr. Vaughn is great, bright and knows his stuff but he has little power. If you don't have a champion (even a principal champion), the program is doomed to watering down or mediocrity.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27888813133969683862008-12-12T13:49:00.000-08:002008-12-12T13:49:00.000-08:00I'll be at the meeting Monday at WMS to discuss th...I'll be at the meeting Monday at WMS to discuss the split. I'm hungry for more detail on how this is going to work. It's easy enough to send kids here and there but how are they going to keep the gifted education program strong when they're splitting the cohort and the teachers? <BR/><BR/>For me the greatest things about APP are the rigorous academics and the safe environment for brainy kids. I really don't want to see them go away, and they could very easily with poor planning or an unsympathetic administration.Danny Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632244455766365141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6613177095088111822008-12-12T08:05:00.000-08:002008-12-12T08:05:00.000-08:00Can someone please explain the references to Montl...Can someone please explain the references to Montlake and Lawsuit?<BR/><BR/>What grounds are there for a suit?Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31060451676723649342008-12-11T15:32:00.000-08:002008-12-11T15:32:00.000-08:00I'm familiar with the Danny Westneat pieces and th...I'm familiar with the Danny Westneat pieces and the issues surrounding them. Those issues are the reason that, as the parent of a child who is likely to get a mandatory assignment to Madrona, I believe that this particular principal and this particular program is not a good match for a school in this particular neighborhood. It seems like putting APP there allows opening Lowell as a nice big reference school, and solves a lot of other problems.<BR/><BR/>I know it's not likely politically, but I don't think that's a reason for the neighborhood families to stop pushing for something to be done. Asking for what you want is the first step in changing the politics.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86856717390471120802008-12-11T12:49:00.000-08:002008-12-11T12:49:00.000-08:00I am not privy to anything in writing, but I can t...I am not privy to anything in writing, but I can tell you that even as early as last year, Dr. Vaughan spoke to us about expanding not just APP but other advanced learning options to other schools throughout the district.<BR/><BR/>For example, this year, Dr. Vaughan worked on getting a grant to allow most if not all (sorry, I don't recall) high school students to take the PSAT free of charge, in order to identify bright students who might not have a focus on advanced learning. <BR/><BR/>Clearly there's been thought put into how expanding advance learning will happen long before this round of school changes. The idea that APP WOULD expand is part of the reason our family signed onto it. <BR/><BR/>We will work hard to ensure that the program aimed at the school where we end up works for THAT student body-all are NOT the same. For instance, our family and some others with non-white members would like to see more emphasis on civil rights in the social studies portion of the instruction. <BR/><BR/>I'm not a district cheerleader-I have reservations too-all I can say, though, is that this isn't a fly-by-night plan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82103532203241232252008-12-11T10:49:00.000-08:002008-12-11T10:49:00.000-08:00I should add that Central's Spectrum program i...I should add that Central's Spectrum program is currently very small at Leschi (under 20 kids if I remember correctly). I would expect it to grow in this scenario, but probably not much the first year. Assuming that some kids from each would choose a different Central school or go private, there should be room for Montlake and TT Minor general ed populations, and the <50 kids that come from both Spectrum and Special Ed, with a little room to grow. If Spectrum grows really well, then in a year or two, When the assignment plan is drawn, this school would have 100 or seats set aside for Spectrum and Special Ed. That would leave around 400 for a nice big General Ed reference area, including Cap Hill, Eastlake, Miller Park, and parts of Montlake, Squire Park and Madison Valley, with the other parts of those areas going to Stevens, McGilvra, and Madrona.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12635801933872184362008-12-11T10:43:00.000-08:002008-12-11T10:43:00.000-08:00Agibean, do you know of anyplace where Vaughn or a...Agibean, <BR/>do you know of anyplace where Vaughn or anybody else with the district has put their plans for managing the APP transition in writing? Part of the anxiety that so many parents feel is coming from the fact that there hasn't been any real discussion of <B>how</B> they're going to manage all these transitions, especially for special programs. And if APP elementary and middle schools are getting split in half, how does that work? Other than talk of design teams, I haven't seen anything. Since the district has a history of putting burdens on schools and never coming up with the promised rewards that were supposed to make for those burdens, parents have every reason to be skeptical and resistive.<BR/><BR/>TechyMom: Forget it. Not Gonna Happen. Madrona is very deliberately focused on taking struggling kids and closing the achievement gap, the principal is good at it and has won major awards for it, and the district has supported her through considerable political turmoil in this mission. (Google "Danny Westneat" and "Madrona" for examples.) <BR/><BR/>The chance that the district would shut that program down to benefit more privileged students, even as it closes programs like AAA -- less than zero. Not to be dismissive, but seriously, it'll never happen.Danny Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07632244455766365141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17842465641570006412008-12-11T09:26:00.000-08:002008-12-11T09:26:00.000-08:00You may be right about the district's impression o...You may be right about the district's impression of the Madrona principal. Sad, but true. She does seem to be good at turning kids with WASL 2 scores into kids with WASL 3 scores. That, however, is not what this neighborhood needs or wants. Is there a school or neighborhood that does want that, where she could be moved? <BR/><BR/>I would still put the TT Minor Montessori at Leschi. The general ed kids would be able to choose any school in the cluster. I'd keep the assignment preference for the twice-displaced MLK kids, maybe even for all the TT Minor kids. I suspect that a lot of the TT Minor kids would go to the new general ed program at Lowell, since it is geographically pretty close and will have room. <BR/><BR/>One could also make Lowell their official receiving school, to help keep them together, and bring along some of their teachers. Actually, that might help make it clear how diverse this school would be. I think it would be diverse without doing this, but doing it makes the argument easier, and probably makes the transition easier for the kids.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68701963446180065252008-12-11T09:12:00.000-08:002008-12-11T09:12:00.000-08:00TechyMom, two issues I'll flag.One, and I could be...TechyMom, two issues I'll flag.<BR/><BR/>One, and I could be wrong about this, I have been under the impression that while part of the community around Madrona is unhappy with the principal, I'm not sure the district is, so I'm not sure how receptive they'd be to removing her (unless it would be to promote her in some way). <BR/><BR/>Second, where do the T.T. Minor kids go in your scenario? They are currently to go to Leschi and Madrona. If APP goes to Madrona, I haven't done a seat-count but doubt there would be T.T. Minor room. Is the idea that all of T.T. Minor goes to Leschi, or that part of it would go to Lowell?djhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01720927162286657378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15381310343021808192008-12-11T07:32:00.000-08:002008-12-11T07:32:00.000-08:00one more thought...Move Montlake intact to Lowell,...one more thought...<BR/>Move Montlake intact to Lowell, and also move Central Spectrum from Leschi there, and look into adding ALOs. Leschi would then have general ed and montessori. Lowell would have general ed, special ed, and spectrum, and maybe ALOs. Madrona would have APP, ALOs and General ed. Montlake and TT Minor buildings close, with the possibility of closing T. Marshall later.<BR/><BR/>Poke some holes in this, please.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82736044995657155392008-12-11T07:28:00.000-08:002008-12-11T07:28:00.000-08:00OK, since I don't seem to be getting flamed, here'...OK, since I don't seem to be getting flamed, here's a tweak on that idea.<BR/><BR/>Move elementary APP intact, including its principal and staff, to Madrona. Fire Madrona's principal. Add recess and lose the uniforms. Commit to building ALOs, art, music and language classes, adding at least one of these the first year and building a plan to phase in more over the next several years. It would fill with neighborhood kids, from this diverse neighborhood, very quickly.<BR/><BR/>It might also work (I haven't looked at the numbers) to put middle school spectrum or part of middle school APP there. If not, <BR/>the middle school general ed program could be a mushroom, making some space for displaced Meany students. In a few years, it would also be full of neighborhood kids. I think some kids from the neighborhood go to meany now, so that might be the same thing.<BR/><BR/>Move Montlake intact to Lowell and close the Montlake building. Give that excellent program room to grow. Add at least one more K class for this coming year. It will also fill with neighborhood kids.<BR/><BR/>Between these two schools, the families whose neighborhood schools have been closed, including Montlake, TT Minor and MLK, would have two strong, large, new programs available to them. I suspect some would come back from private, but if they don't and there's still excess capacity, close T. Marshall as part of the assignment plan.<BR/><BR/>The district claims to want large, diverse schools with strong general ed programs. You may disagree with this (I think small schools are better personally), but that's the goal, and this proposal seems to meet it.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46813152941724493422008-12-11T02:08:00.000-08:002008-12-11T02:08:00.000-08:00TechyMom, I won't flame you either. But I can see...TechyMom, I won't flame you either. But I can see Madrona from my living room window, so perhaps I am an easy audience.<BR/><BR/>What I really don't understand is if part of the criteria for closing schools and reassigning students is to move as few students as possible how that of course translates into moving Montlake into Lowell and then moving half of Lowell out. It's not the growth argument any longer, because neither school will have room for APP growth.djhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01720927162286657378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85343861789136522322008-12-10T21:57:00.000-08:002008-12-10T21:57:00.000-08:00none111 -- At this point the only "problem" banish...none111 -- At this point the only "problem" banishing 1/2 of APP solves is the potential legality of having the special ed kids in a building without a general ed population. They can't afford to move those kids out, so they have to move a gen-ed program in. How seriously the legal department takes this, I don't know. AutismMom thinks federal law isn't actually a problem, but others think state law is. <BR/><BR/>I don't disagree that it's looking more and more ridiculous, however.jdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10911494017515642668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59070804828471960402008-12-10T21:07:00.000-08:002008-12-10T21:07:00.000-08:00jd said:"I think the district figured out that the...jd said:<BR/>"I think the district figured out that they have to keep the Lowell building open. It's been retrofitted for the medically fragile special ed population, and has had more than a million dollars of other renovations. Displacing the special ed students and retrofitting their new locations would be incredibly expensive. If they moved all APP out of Lowell, they probably couldn't fill it with 500 other kids in one swoop, which they would need to do to keep the special education facility open. So, financially it makes more sense for the district to move another program into Lowell to replace the half of APP that they ripped out."<BR/><BR/>You're correct on all counts. <BR/><BR/>But hey, I know a perfect program that would fit the other 1/2 of the Lowell building superbly, size-wise, culture-wise, etc. And I'm sure they'd move there in a heartbeat.<BR/><BR/>Uh, it's called the other 1/2 of APP, which is slated to be booted from the building for no particularly good reason at this point. Honestly, they're not going to save anything by closing the building, and the district actually MAKES money transporting the existing APP kids to Lowell, as strange as that sounds - it's in the report. <BR/><BR/>If Montlake fights this and wins, then who else would go in the other 1/2 of the building to fill it up efficiently? If they kick out 1/2 of the APP kids, and then can't figure out a way to fill it back up pretty close to capacity... that would look pretty incompetent as far as the overall goal of working to fix the capacity problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14887453316931556962008-12-10T20:47:00.000-08:002008-12-10T20:47:00.000-08:00I'm not going to flame you, TechyMom. I don't thin...I'm not going to flame you, TechyMom. I don't think any Seattle school is as demographically out of whack with its surrounding neighborhood as Madrona.<BR/><BR/>Or how about putting half of APP in Leschi? When I toured the building last year, I saw a lot of empty classrooms. Plus, they've already got a Spectrum program.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03815602221767159762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91388211803652643242008-12-10T18:20:00.000-08:002008-12-10T18:20:00.000-08:00I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but her...I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes anyway...<BR/><BR/>How about putting half of APP at, gasp, Madrona? I know it didn't work last time, but that was a long time ago, and many variables have changed. There's room. Something needs to be done to improve Madrona, as it is in Step 4 of NCLB. If it can work at T. Marshall, why can't it work at Madrona? Maybe we could close T. Marshall, move its program, principal, staff and students to Madrona, fire Madrona's principal, and move APP back there?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76573215518383371282008-12-10T16:22:00.000-08:002008-12-10T16:22:00.000-08:00Finspot -- those are exactly the sorts of question...Finspot -- those are exactly the sorts of questions that I (and I know other parents) have been trying to get answers to.djhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01720927162286657378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52412087890748204612008-12-10T15:08:00.000-08:002008-12-10T15:08:00.000-08:00I don't know why one group would have preference o...I don't know why one group would have preference over another. Wouldn't they all just be treated as sibs and in the event that any class had multiple sibs on a wait list they would be sorted based on lottery number? I don't think special ed kid sibs (for example) are sorted any differently than gen ed sibs.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81651276330071599632008-12-10T14:49:00.000-08:002008-12-10T14:49:00.000-08:00I asked Tracy Libros the exact question about sibl...I asked Tracy Libros the exact question about sibling preference and she stated emphatically that APP siblings would get priority under the choice model. Now since APP is guaranteed seats in the cohort, my guess is that APP siblings end up with priority over gen ed siblings.lendleeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12555109557702727406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59352871858289458022008-12-10T13:55:00.000-08:002008-12-10T13:55:00.000-08:00How would the staffing work? I've heard that durin...How would the staffing work? I've heard that during a move such as this, school support staff (art, music, library, etc.) stay where they are, while classroom teachers can decide where they go based on seniority. Any truth to this?Langdon Cookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13824455892396013221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62280863320360301952008-12-10T10:29:00.000-08:002008-12-10T10:29:00.000-08:00Robin -- I think the district figured out that the...Robin -- I think the district figured out that they have to keep the Lowell building open. It's been retrofitted for the medically fragile special ed population, and has had more than a million dollars of other renovations. Displacing the special ed students and retrofitting their new locations would be incredibly expensive. If they moved all APP out of Lowell, they probably couldn't fill it with 500 other kids in one swoop, which they would need to do to keep the special education facility open. So, financially it makes more sense for the district to move another program into Lowell to replace the half of APP that they ripped out.jdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10911494017515642668noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82937286019442014892008-12-10T09:46:00.000-08:002008-12-10T09:46:00.000-08:00"That means, that APP students with siblings can n..."That means, that APP students with siblings can now get their siblings into the same school because both types of programs are available. Would APP sibs get a preference or regular ed or just both? Would they all fit?"<BR/><BR/>Melissa, this is an interesting question. I wonder if the new student assignment plan will tinker with sib preference as it relates to co-housed programs? In any event it needs to be addressed. Doesn't TOPS have a similar problem? In that it is very difficult for a student without a sibling in the program to get in? That aside it looks like both Thurgood Marshall and Lowell will be at or over capacity before even factoring the sib preference rule.another momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12303476240929715442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9116188086070623812008-12-10T09:23:00.000-08:002008-12-10T09:23:00.000-08:00I attended the meeting (well, for 4 hours). I, of...I attended the meeting (well, for 4 hours). I, of course, was quite surprised at some of the offerings. Not so surprised at the Montlake/Lowell idea. First, the Montlake parents are likely getting their lawsuit together as they speak (or letting the Board know that as they did the CAC). But if you wait a year and then dissolve them under a new assignment plan and disperse their population? Oh my, you have got courage to suggest that. I didn't think there could be much more that could make them mad but that would be it (and I certainly do sympathize with the shock this must be to that community - all of us do). <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure why they did merge TT Minor in instead of Montlake. My thought would be because there are more schools around TT Minor to absorb their population whereas there aren't for Montlake's.<BR/><BR/>One key question that nags at me:<BR/>under the new Lowell plan, both Lowell and T. Marshall will have APP and regular ed programs. That means, that APP students with siblings can now get their siblings into the same school because both types of programs are available. Would APP sibs get a preference or regular ed or just both? Would they all fit?Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11645152961807052022008-12-10T07:36:00.000-08:002008-12-10T07:36:00.000-08:00Moving half the Lowell kids to TT Minor with the e...Moving half the Lowell kids to TT Minor with the existing TT Minor kids would be a perfect plan but, unfortunately, there aren't enough seats in the building.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63245151412454846082008-12-09T23:53:00.000-08:002008-12-09T23:53:00.000-08:00Why not move that Lowell cohort to the TT Minor? ...Why not move that Lowell cohort to the TT Minor? All the teachers are spectrum trained,we have a montossori progam an amazing chess team, I think it would be a good fit. The district has made promises to TT Minor in regards to fixing the building time and time again, this last time was, if you merge with MLK we will fix you building. Also, there is a website savettminor.org where there is a survey for parents to take, we are intested in young parents in the neighborhood and parents who were at TT Minor and no longer there. I have been hearing some horrible stories about peoples experience trying to go to TT Minor but being told they couldn't and now they are under enrolled. Anyway there is my 2cents and if you would like to add yours please go to savettminor.org and leave a comment.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00247224439090455285noreply@blogger.com