tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post1182851042416040640..comments2024-03-18T16:51:10.406-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Speak Up; She'll ListenMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53612293754020040552008-11-22T21:56:00.000-08:002008-11-22T21:56:00.000-08:00I have been told, more than once, that repeating g...I have been told, more than once, that repeating grades does not help students. I can also report that promoting them does not work. There has to be a third option.<BR/><BR/>The third option is to divert the students who are not working at grade level into a TEMPORARY program that is intensive, extended, and enriched, accelerate their learning to bring them up to grade level, and then RETURN them to the general education classroom.<BR/><BR/>The program will be Intensive because it will have low student:teacher ratios. It will also be intensive because the teaching will be accelerated. Students who are behind need to be accelerated so they can catch up with their peers.<BR/><BR/>The program will be Extended in a number of ways. Extended time on task - 90 minutes spent on each core subject: reading, writing, math, and science. An extended day starting early and finishing late. An extended week including Saturday school. And an extended year starting in August before the general education classes and finishing in June or July after them.<BR/><BR/>Finally, it will have to be Enriched with lots of field trips, with art, music, and performance. This is, in part, to make it clear that the students are NOT being punished. What kind of punishment includes at least one field trip a week? Studies show that enriching experiences - trips to the zoo, the aquarium, museums, libraries, performances, etc. - are a significant contributing factor to the academic achievement gap. If we are to close that gap we need to provide those enriching experiences.<BR/><BR/>The extended day is, in part, to include time in the afternoon for the art and the field trips. It is also to provide time for students to do their homework in a structured environment and gain some study skills.<BR/><BR/>When the students are returned to their general education classroom they will not only be ready and able to do the work, they will no longer be at the bottom of their class. Other students and the school community will see that kids come out of the diversion program as some of the top achievers in their class so the program does not get a reputation as a place for dumb kids or bad students.<BR/><BR/>The important thing, however, is that the students DO go back to a general education class. The diversion program should be strictly a temporary assignment.<BR/><BR/>Will this be expensive? You bet it will! But it will be well worth it. If students received early and effective intervention when they fell behind, we would have, over time, fewer students falling behind. More than that, we would have many many more students who have a positive experience at school and truly become lifelong learners who value education.<BR/><BR/>So no, autismmom, I'm not interested in holding students back; I'm interested in launching them forward. But no one who can't swim in an 8 foot pool will be helped by getting dumped into a 10 foot pool.<BR/><BR/>We have Advanced Learning programs for students who are working beyond Standards. Where is the program to support students who are working below Standards?<BR/><BR/>As for students with disabilities, they have IEPs which set their individual academic goals. They would only get the intervention if they didn't meet the goals of their IEP, not the state Standards. I fully support inclusive classrooms - if they are done right.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18578941968688531612008-11-22T21:54:00.000-08:002008-11-22T21:54:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13049709510193687882008-11-22T09:26:00.000-08:002008-11-22T09:26:00.000-08:00Dang, Autism mom, why the hostility?You sound very...Dang, Autism mom, why the hostility?<BR/>You sound very very angry. Of course, there will be kids with disabilities that do not meet standard. That is not at all what the poster above was talking about. Not meeting standards due to a disability is very different than a child with no disability, that can't meet standards. Sure kids present differently, but all should fall within a set guideline of standards. If they don't they should not be promoted. The poster above did not at all imply that they should just keep holding kids back until they "get it". What he said was that early and swift intervention should happen right away to bring these kids up to standard. With true and effective intervention most kids will be able to meet standard. If they can't, should they really move up Wouldn't that be unfair to them to be in a classroom where they really can't succeed? And how far do you think a teacher should be flexible. If she has a 9th grade class with one student reading at a 2nd grade level, should she really be expected to tailor her class to meet his needs? Now what if she has a kid at 2nd grade level, a few at 3rd grade level, one at 4th grade level, and on and on. How would she be expected to accomodate that kind of range. We let the one room classroom go back in the 1800sanonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2064860042375567612008-11-21T21:22:00.000-08:002008-11-21T21:22:00.000-08:00Oh no. Not the "fail 'em if they can't make the g...Oh no. Not the "fail 'em if they can't make the grade" dead horse. Please. Are we supposed to repeat first grade 21 times... instead of being moved on? If somebody didn't "get" first grade... will doing it again help? Hint: answer = no. Do you really want kids of huge age ranges in your child's class? Would you like a 15 yo in a second grade? I don't think so.<BR/><BR/>No, everyone is going to present differently. I can tell you from a disabilities stand-point, there are going to be students who don't "meet expectations" who WILL be moved up. Teachers WILL need to adjust their teaching in YOUR general education classroom to reach those students. And in the meantime, they will be better able to meet all children if they have this flexibility.<BR/><BR/>And since it is obvious, and legally required, that students with disabilities be accommodated in general education, even if they haven't met grade level expectations... isn't it reasonable to expect teachers to do this for students without disabilities too? The alternative will be.... students not meeting grade level will be categorized as disabled, and promoted anyway. So, what's the advantage?<BR/><BR/>I can tell you from experience, this already happens. There's a kid (12 yo) sitting with kindergarteners at my school. And, it's pretty ridiculous. Why would you want more of that?AutismMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733034472823241389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70310667384749900412008-11-19T18:26:00.000-08:002008-11-19T18:26:00.000-08:00Roy is, of course, correct."Again, I'm pretty conv...Roy is, of course, correct.<BR/><BR/>"<I>Again, I'm pretty convinced that the only stable long-term answer is to figure out how to bring all the schools up to reasonably equitable level of performance. Anything else means that we will have unpredictable and uneven access, overcrowding of popular schools, or both.</I>"<BR/><BR/>Of course, this is a much greater challenge than right-sizing a reference area.<BR/><BR/>The way to bring the high schools up to a reasonably equitable level of performance is to first bring the middle schools up to a reasonably equitable level of performance. High schools cannot perform well if the students who come to them are not ready and able to do ninth grade work.<BR/><BR/>The way to bring the middle schools up to a reasonably equitable level of performance is to first bring the elementary schools up to a reasonably equitable level of performance. Middle schools cannot perform well if the students who come to them are not ready and able to do sixth grade work.<BR/><BR/>The way to bring the elementary schools up to a reasonably equitable level of performance is to set and maintain high academic expectations for all students and to give the students the support they need to reach those expectations. This means that we do not lower the bar. No social promotion. Instead, we make quick, early and effective interventions when any student's performance becomes at risk of falling below grade level.<BR/><BR/>Do that in the elementary and middle schools for ten years and your high schools will be great.<BR/><BR/>Finally, the District is taking the first baby steps towards this solution.<BR/><BR/>Now, what are we going to do as a short-term fix while we're waiting for the long-term fix to take effect?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76194485135065690812008-11-19T16:12:00.000-08:002008-11-19T16:12:00.000-08:00If the reference area has to be tiny, say 1/4 mile...If the reference area has to be tiny, say 1/4 mile around the school, then so be it. There is only so much housing available for people to move to, and lets not forget it's a huge school that accommodates over 1700 students. It can be done. I'm not saying it's the best thing. I'm not advocating for it. I agree that all schools need to be good schools. I'm just saying that predictability can happen without over crowding a school. <BR/><BR/>And yes of course the neighborhoods that aren't in the reference area are not going to like it. No neighborhood will. That is unavoidable.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30593351693362621852008-11-19T15:06:00.000-08:002008-11-19T15:06:00.000-08:00adhoc wrote: Roy, sure there is a way to get both ...<B>adhoc</B> wrote: <I>Roy, sure there is a way to get both guaranteed assignment, and not over crowd a school. When you draw the boundaries make sure that the geographic area is right sized. In other words the boundary is small enough so that all kids can be accommodated at Roosevelt without over crowding the school. It's pretty simple. <BR/><BR/>If, eventually, people move into the new boundary so they have access to Roosevelt and the school can not accomodate all students, then you re-draw the boundaries and make them even smaller. Grandfather in the kids who are already enrolled, and have the new boundaries affect only incoming students.</I><BR/><BR/>I think you underestimate the impact of family mobility, and private school families who will move into public schools, if enrollment into the school of their choice is guaranteed by their address.<BR/><BR/>Regarding mobility, if there are high school reference areas, a huge proportion of families who rent have the ability to get into any reasonably conceivable high school reference area almost at will, and it wouldn't surprise me if many would. (I myself would, for starters, if I had an 8th grader and was looking at such a situation).<BR/><BR/>And a lot of families have gone private specifically because they could not get into their desired public school. If the reference areas guarantee access, some portion of them will probably take advantage of that access.<BR/><BR/>Its worth remembering that small demographic shifts, taken on a citywide basis, can make a <B>huge</B> impact on individual schools. For instance, there are about 13,000 high schools students in SPS that do not attend Roosevelt High School. If 3% of those high school students' families move in order to take advantage of guaranteed access based on a defined reference area, then Roosevelt has to accomodate almost 400 additional students. Since the average family moves once every few years, this kind of shift is not at all inconceivable.<BR/><BR/>If you redraw the reference areas at a pace fast enough to accomodate the demographic changes those reference areas area likely to inspire, then that destroys the predictability that supporters of reference areas want in the first place. We might as well keep the distance tie-breaker if we go that route. Also, we set ourselves up for bruising political battles between neighborhoods on a regular, perhaps annual, basis (I can already picture the fights between Laurelhurst, Wedgewood, and Green Lake as the district tries to figure out who is going to be excluded from Roosevelt as the high school population of the area surges).<BR/><BR/>Again, I'm pretty convinced that the only stable long-term answer is to figure out how to bring all the schools up to reasonably equitable level of performance. Anything else means that we will have unpredictable and uneven access, overcrowding of popular schools, or both.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120444973792909383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28173937072014207742008-11-19T12:49:00.000-08:002008-11-19T12:49:00.000-08:00Of course, guaranteed assignment will exasperate t...Of course, guaranteed assignment will exasperate the need to improve the less popular schools. I hope that with MGJ at the helm, some positive, and swift action will be taken. More has been accomplished under her short watch than has been done in the entire time my children have been in this district (Olschefski and Manhas regimes). The SE initiative, though not working well, was an attempt to improve school quality in SE, something no other supt has even approached. I think we will also see MGJ standardize school offerings such as AP, music, art, 3 years of science in middle school, etc, so all schools will have the same baseline classes. <BR/><BR/>MGJ inherited a mess. A disaster. Crumbling, limping, poor performing schools in the south end, entire regions with no school access (QA), crowding in the north end. She has a tough job ahead of her, but I feel like she is making progress, and moving forward. I have faith that there will be improvement, though it will take years maybe decades to complete.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36087241662659635392008-11-19T12:39:00.000-08:002008-11-19T12:39:00.000-08:00Roy, sure there is a way to get both guaranteed as...Roy, sure there is a way to get both guaranteed assignment, and not over crowd a school. When you draw the boundaries make sure that the geographic area is right sized. In other words the boundary is small enough so that all kids can be accommodated at Roosevelt without over crowding the school. It's pretty simple. <BR/><BR/>If, eventually, people move into the new boundary so they have access to Roosevelt and the school can not accomodate all students, then you re-draw the boundaries and make them even smaller. Grandfather in the kids who are already enrolled, and have the new boundaries affect only incoming students.<BR/><BR/>It seems fairly simple from my perspective.<BR/><BR/>And forget about fraud. You can't base an entire assignment plan around the assumption of fraud or dishonesty. If there is evident fraud, then that will have to be addressed separate from the assignment plan, and it sounds like Roosevelt is already doing just that.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55047298440458768562008-11-19T12:03:00.000-08:002008-11-19T12:03:00.000-08:00Well, there is a solution to overcrowding and it's...<I>Well, there is a solution to overcrowding and it's called not doing it.</I><BR/><BR/>Only an option as long as there is not a way geographically to get guaranteed enrollment. Many families in Seattle are clamoring for exactly that - some sort of guaranteed enrollment based on geographical reference areas. So again, we have to make the decision (which thus far has not been made) about which is valued more: predictability of assignment based on geography, or relief of overcrowding at popular schools. We can't, at this time in this district, get both.<BR/><BR/><I>So what can the District do - if anything - to make other schools more attractive to families?</I><BR/><BR/>Charlie, coming from you, I hope this is a rhetorical question. There is lots that the District <B>can</B> do. Maybe a more pointed question is "What will the District <B>actually</B> do - if anything - to make other schools other schools more attractive to families?"Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120444973792909383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33281717205080519462008-11-19T08:59:00.001-08:002008-11-19T08:59:00.001-08:00zb has said it exactly:"Overcrowding at Roosevelt ...zb has said it exactly:<BR/>"<I>Overcrowding at Roosevelt isn't going to be solved until more families are happy with sending students to other high schools.</I>"<BR/><BR/>So what can the District do - if anything - to make other schools more attractive to families?<BR/><BR/>Or should the district simply not bother with that? Roosevelt admits students until it is full, then enrollment closes. Everyone who doesn't get their kid into the school gets a different assignment. Are they disappointed? Too freakin' bad. Go cry to your momma because we don't care. Whatever school you get is good enough for your kid.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39325156821291738132008-11-19T08:59:00.000-08:002008-11-19T08:59:00.000-08:00Well, there is a solution to overcrowding and it's...Well, there is a solution to overcrowding and it's called not doing it. There are several schools (Roosevelt being one) that are quietly drawing back their numbers. I think the district supports this (but maybe that would change with the assignment plan). If schools are not forced to overenroll, then families will have to choose another school. If there are too many students in one area for one high school, that's when I'd see overcrowding but not letting in students just to make people happy. We did that at Eckstein and look at their size.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82577278518271491452008-11-19T08:50:00.000-08:002008-11-19T08:50:00.000-08:00Quoting zb: But, I am arguing for stable reference...Quoting <B>zb</B>: <I>But, I am arguing for stable reference areas over the course of 5-10 years, drawn with demographic projections in mind.</I><BR/><BR/>The problem is that the demographics will be directly impacted by the presence, shape, and rigidity of the reference areas. For instance, if the district decides to guarantee the Roosevelt reference area for 10 years, then within 5 years (and I would guess within 2 years), there will be more high schoolers living in that area (even assuming no fraud) than that school can possibly hold. If there is no reference area (or no guarantee it will remain the same from year to year), then the current demographic projections might be relatively close.<BR/><BR/>Whatever is done, the drive of families to provide the best (or even adequate) education for their children will overwhelm efforts to control overcrowding, at least until there isn't a huge incentive to flee from certain schools to other schools. Overcrowding at Roosevelt isn't going to be solved until more families are happy with sending students to other high schools.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120444973792909383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67500316071512047292008-11-19T06:02:00.000-08:002008-11-19T06:02:00.000-08:00This is a perfect example of why we should not eli...This is a perfect example of why we should not eliminate ALL of the excess capacity from the system. We need some for flexibility and for growth. The system should be designed with about 5-10% excess capacity to respond to exactly the sort of issues discussed here.<BR/><BR/>The problem we have is not the excess capacity, but the concentration of excess capacity.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16922962205218607272008-11-18T17:11:00.000-08:002008-11-18T17:11:00.000-08:00No one is saying the reference areas should be dra...No one is saying the reference areas should be drawn to overcrowd the schools. But, I am arguing for stable reference areas over the course of 5-10 years, drawn with demographic projections in mind. Stable could even include changing boundaries over those years, as long as the boundaries were made clear -- i.e. boundaries that changed as a function of year. <BR/><BR/>Is this a perfect solution? Of course not, because it will result in overcrowding on occasion, when the predictions were wrong. But, the current situation means that someone who moves in to a neighborhood can end up at a school on the other side of Seattle, and that's clearly an imperfect solution as well. <BR/><BR/>And we know that many of these schools were used to greater capacities than those people currently find unbearable. People cope. I see echoes of the planning that airlines go to when they figure that it's better to delay an entire plane for 24 hours, than to spread the delay across multiple groups of people, because it's better to have 200 people really mad, than to have 1000 people inconvenienced. So, it's better to have 200 kids shipped across the city than to have 1000 have to deal with a more crowded school?zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60218079266417714652008-11-18T16:50:00.000-08:002008-11-18T16:50:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37060368953953234462008-11-18T15:10:00.000-08:002008-11-18T15:10:00.000-08:00two things: first, dorothy is right in thinking I...two things: first, dorothy is right in thinking I in no way advocate moving programs around like pawns. I suppose I should have written: "The only out I can see <B>the District has</B> is to..."<BR/> <BR/>Second, maybe polyanna is right and fraud won't increase, but I'm afraid that an increase in rigidity will lead more people to act dishonestly. I get the feeling that knowing <B>for sure</B> that if they lived on the other side of a given street they would definitely have access to a good school will drive more people to fudge their address. In particular, during the first few years, some people will feel like 'their' school has been taken away from them, so they have a <B>right</B> to cheat. (We live about 1.85 miles WEST of Roosevelt-my 9th grader goes there- I'm willing to bet money that my 5th grader will not have access to that school--though someone near Sandpoint may.) In theory it should actually be easier to catch cheaters if the boundaries are rigid from year to year (especially if the sibling preference is dropped), so maybe I'll be proven wrong.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89537479540894187932008-11-18T14:48:00.001-08:002008-11-18T14:48:00.001-08:00I would imagine that if the district is going to g...I would imagine that if the district is going to guarantee assignment to neighborhood schools they will have to re-draw the boundaries to make sure that they are right sized. When Roosevelt plans it's capacity, one would hope that they accept fewer students than the building can actually hold, leaving some wiggle room for years where there will be more students, and for families that move into the reference area mid year. If the reference area eventually grows to big, then it will have to be redrawn, but that issue can be dealt with when it happens.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9158374282945474762008-11-18T14:48:00.000-08:002008-11-18T14:48:00.000-08:00I have not heard Tracy say for how long the refere...I have not heard Tracy say for how long the reference area predictability is guaranteed. 3years, 5 years, 10 years....old salthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971380233996439817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44045443868128440862008-11-18T14:43:00.000-08:002008-11-18T14:43:00.000-08:00"As an aside, parents who engage in various types ..."As an aside, parents who engage in various types of fraud and lieing to get access (which as maureen points out, does happen), are abusing the system, and if we have guaranteed reference areas, we can probably expect to see more of that behavior, as well."<BR/><BR/>Fraud is unacceptable on all levels and shouldn't be tolerated. That's a given and I think we can all agree on that. But why would there be more fraud with the new assignment plan because of guaranteed access in certain geographic areas? As the assignment plan stands today distance is the tie breaker. So currently you could use a fraudulent address very close to Roosevelt and be guaranteed in. Many people do this currently, and I even heard that Roosevelt had a committee devoted to checking out suspicious addresses. So, while fraud may remain as it is now, I don't think the proposed changes to the assignment plan will increase fraud.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9089166093283191612008-11-18T14:19:00.000-08:002008-11-18T14:19:00.000-08:00Reader:"Pollyanna, programs = chilren, with friend...Reader:<BR/><BR/>"Pollyanna, programs = chilren, with friends, ties to the community, and the same needs for continuity of placement as your child, my child, anyone's child."<BR/><BR/>First, it was Maureen, not Pollyana who made the program moving conjecture. Second, I know Maureen and I doubt she likes this possible scenario, it is mostly musing, brainstorming on the consequences, intended and unintended, of guaranteed reference areas and population shifts. <BR/><BR/>These are good questions. We live 1.85 miles from RHS and my son is a student. On my block, there are no other middle or high school aged children. There are, however, 11 kids preschool to grade 1. Where will they go to High School? As Mel pointed out, the land around RHS is all slated for condos and townhomes. Lots of them. The reference area for RHS will have to shrink as density goes up.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12370386758387279562008-11-18T12:30:00.000-08:002008-11-18T12:30:00.000-08:00"The only out I can see is to co-house programs wi..."The only out I can see is to co-house programs with popular schools and move the programs in and out to where ever there is room. Anyone interested in kids enrolled in special ed should keep this in mind. Of course, this happens even now, but I expect it will be worse under the proposed assignment plan."<BR/><BR/>Pollyanna, programs = chilren, with friends, ties to the community, and the same needs for continuity of placement as your child, my child, anyone's child. The recognition of continuity of placement as a value in the growth of our children in schools is a basis of the new student assignment framework. The stakes are even higher for children who have disabilities. The district already moves these children around like yesterday's recycling against all clinical and educational good practice. Remember, "programs" touch the lives of little human beings trying to connect with their peers and teachers and grow.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00375775967885300005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-23502664674395111942008-11-18T11:28:00.000-08:002008-11-18T11:28:00.000-08:00pollyanna said "Look, you have to have a cut off."...<B>pollyanna</B> said "Look, you have to have a cut off." <BR/><BR/>But that's what I have <B>not</B> heard from the District. If people are guaranteed a spot at a given school, then some years there will be too many kids and some years there will be too few. Creating rigid enrollment boundaries will make this inevitable. The current system allows us to shift kids around to where there are seats. Under the proposed new assignment system we will sacrifice this flexibility. period. <BR/><BR/>The only out I can see is to co-house <B>programs</B> with popular schools and move the programs in and out to where ever there is room. Anyone interested in kids enrolled in special ed should keep this in mind. Of course, this happens even now, but I expect it will be worse under the proposed assignment plan.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90330213061932505412008-11-18T11:16:00.000-08:002008-11-18T11:16:00.000-08:00I should have chosen different wording - it is tru...I should have chosen different wording - it is true that families that move to be in a particular school district or in a particular school's reference area aren't gaming the system, they are simply doing what is best for their children. So kudos to them, but nonetheless, by moving, they do contribute to the overcrowding problem. As an aside, parents who engage in various types of fraud and lieing to get access (which as <B>maureen</B> points out, does happen), are abusing the system, and if we have guaranteed reference areas, we can probably expect to see more of that behavior, as well.<BR/><BR/>As far as consulting with other districts about how they avoid this sort of problem, I can answer that without consulting anybody: they make all the schools reasonably comparable in attractiveness. Shoreline has two high schools that are broadly comparable in quality, so there is little incentive to move to get into the other high school. If Shoreline had a high school that was comparable to Roosevelt, and one that was comparable to Rainier Beach, they wouldn't be able to manage the overcrowding problem any better than Seattle does.<BR/><BR/>Thus, the real answer is to increase the attractiveness of other high schools, so that families will want to send their students to them. And, if we move to a system of guaranteed reference areas, plan on severe overcrowding in some of the most popular schools, until (if ever) the quality disparities are significantly reduced.<BR/><BR/><B>Pollyanna</B>, if we accept the idea that enrollment must be capped at some level, then we will ensure that we do not have guaranteed reference areas anytime soon. We can get guaranteed reference areas (and thus predictability of assignment), or we can get relief from overcrowding, but at this point in time in this district, getting both is not an option. Furthermore, it won't be an option until such time as most families in all parts of the district will agree that the statement "my neighborhood school provides an adequate education for our children" is true.<BR/><BR/>I won't venture an opinion on whether predictability of assignment or relief from overcrowding should have a higher priority (largely because I don't really have one); my intention is to point out that those two values are directly in conflict with each other at this juncture.<BR/><BR/>And while I'm posting, I agree with the posters above that the sibling tie-breaker needs to be got rid of for high schools.Roy Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16120444973792909383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65963696016017640792008-11-18T10:50:00.000-08:002008-11-18T10:50:00.000-08:00Look, you have to have a cut off. If Roosevelt can...Look, you have to have a cut off. If Roosevelt can hold 1700 kids, then that's what they can hold. Period. They should not be expected to continue to add children because the school is popular. It is a detriment to the program and directly affects the quality of learning for the students. <BR/><BR/>What would happen if we applied this logic to other things in life? What if, instead of capping the basketball team at 10 players, the coach took all 50 players that tried out? It would be detrimental to the kids, as they would have far less play time right? It would be a burden on the coach to train 50 kids instead of 10 right? What if a company that needed to fill one position hired all 6 qualified applicants? Their would be a multitude of problems....would they have space for 6 new hires, could they afford to pay 6 new hires, would they have to add extra supervisory staff to manage all 6 new hires? <BR/><BR/>I say cap the enrollment at Roosevelt knowing that my children have no chance of getting in even though we live less than 3 miles from the school. My child will go to Hale next year, and though different, we think their program is just as solid as Roosevelt. One must concede however, that Hale is a far less popular choice for families than Roosevelt is. <BR/><BR/>If the district were really listening to what parents want they would make a Roosevelt II and III. Perhaps they could move the Hale program intact to a right sized building, and make the Hale building into Roosevelt II. Then Roosevelt could go back to being a 1550 kids school and not have the pressure to grow into a 3000 kid school. And RBHS could be transformed into Roosevelt III complete with rigorous curriculum, expanded AP, strong band and drama, allowing the south end to have at least one strong, college prep option. <BR/><BR/>Despite all of the data that shows Roosevelt and Garfield are the two highest performing schools in the district, and parent satisfaction is among the highest in the district as is evident by the long wait lists, the district is not stepping up to the plate and replicating the programs. Giving the people what they want. <BR/><BR/>Stuffing kids into a Roosevelt and Garfield at the detriment of their programs is certainly not the answer. Strengthening existing schools, and adding Roosevelt like programs around the district is the only reasonable solution.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.com