tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post1721445413216438409..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Friday Open ThreadMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8027928599675734912010-08-05T16:24:08.371-07:002010-08-05T16:24:08.371-07:00dj, I think you are responding to Shannon. :)<b>dj,</b> I think you are responding to <b>Shannon</b>. :)Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65701146931378737862010-08-04T05:26:26.501-07:002010-08-04T05:26:26.501-07:00Maureen, I am a parent who also is skeptical of th...Maureen, I am a parent who also is skeptical of the MAP test. My daughter's score dropped from fall to winter and then rose sharply in the spring. I somehow doubt my daughter lost ground in the fall but then started learning in the spring, so it was not a helpful measure for her or for us. Anecdotally, the parents I have talked to have found the test not so useful. I don't think it is accurate at this point to conceptualize MAP as a "parents like it, teachers oppose it" test.djhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01720927162286657378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43829818219575914012010-08-03T20:49:20.199-07:002010-08-03T20:49:20.199-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Megan Mchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08526624057081098551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76595616447769556712010-08-03T20:49:06.997-07:002010-08-03T20:49:06.997-07:00I think you can just send a letter to your teacher...I think you can just send a letter to your teacher and principal informing them that your child will not be participating in MAP testing and ask that they provide an alternative activity for your child. I know. The district pressured AS#1 to achieve 90% participation in MAP testing so there is evidennnce that they are worried about kids not participatiing.Megan Mchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08526624057081098551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80721360375450490112010-08-03T17:43:27.515-07:002010-08-03T17:43:27.515-07:00I like the idea of a boycott -- but IF the distric...I like the idea of a boycott -- but IF the district is successful in tying teacher retention to MAP results, and lots of good students opt out -- what happens? Does that teacher just get fired? (THAT will play well in the classroom, in terms of student/teacher relationships!)Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35960813441836942332010-08-03T03:08:26.235-07:002010-08-03T03:08:26.235-07:00Gavroche, I don't think the district can force...Gavroche, I don't think the district can force any student to take the MAP. How you opt out is a good question but like the WASL, it's probably doable.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74899559458939383372010-08-03T00:37:56.162-07:002010-08-03T00:37:56.162-07:00Shannon said...
I know that there are paren...<i>Shannon said...<br /> <br /> I know that there are parents who worry about the test and have anecdotes about testing debacles but many of those I have spoken to like it too. I don't think we are getting the whole picture if we just hear from educators who dislike the test and are (justifiably) cynical about the interests behind it.</i><br /><br />Count me among the <b>parents</b> who strongly oppose the MAP tests. I believe they take up precious resources (time, money, instructional energy) with dubious results. <br /><br />The School District is paying $4.3 million for a subscription to a test (MAP) at a time of alleged fiscal crisis?! <br /><br />$4.3 million when the District claims it doesn't have enough money for counselors or teachers?<br /><br />$4.3 million to the vendor of a product (NWEA) on whose board our Superintendent (Goodloe-Johnson) sits?!<br /><br />(How do you spell "conflict of interest" -- "M-G-J-&-N-W-E-A")<br /><br />Think of all the other more meaningful uses our kids' schools could have for that $4.3 million.<br /><br />What's more, the MAP does not align to what our kids are being taught in class or to state standards, so what good is it?<br /><br />When you add MAP 3 times/year to the yearly schedule which already consists of MSP (replacement for the WASL), kids in 4th grade on up are taking computerized tests FOUR TIMES a year.<br /><br />Even though test results trended down across the District in the Winter, making the results invalid and non-usable, I've been told that our kids will <i>still be forced to take the test three times a year</i> because the company that makes it --<br />Northwest Evaluation Association -- <i>wants the data for its own product research.</i> In other words, our kids are free Beta-testers and data fodder for a private testing company.<br /><br />Who among us signed our kids up for that? <br /><br />I would rather my kid be in class learning, than taking all these damn tests that interrupt daily classroom instruction.<br /><br />And it absolutely should not be used to measure teachers for all the reasons stated in this thread. I say this as a parent, not a teacher. <br /><br />We should boycott the MAP.gavrochehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11336376340965305696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45488919916942287862010-08-02T15:03:03.456-07:002010-08-02T15:03:03.456-07:00Bird, I think the "coach" could be that ...Bird, I think the "coach" could be that instructional leader, but then the coach should be a member of the School team (not the central office). The coach's authority and responsibility should be clear and aligned with the other members of the school team. Right now, coaches are not supervisors and do not participate in teacher evaluations. Does the presence of the coach at the school usurp the principal's role as instructional leader? Is the principal released from academic responsibilities to address building management duties exclusively?<br /><br />The coach could become the instructional leader, but right now the situation is too ambiguous, too overlapped, and too indirect.<br /><br />I'm open to it, but it needs to made clear.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73341392346997748922010-08-02T13:07:55.119-07:002010-08-02T13:07:55.119-07:00Charlie,
How would your proposal differ from the ...Charlie,<br /><br />How would your proposal differ from the current arrangement of having a principal and "coach" in each building? Isn't the coach meant to be that instructional leader you are looking for?Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2688134769430858202010-08-02T00:27:32.607-07:002010-08-02T00:27:32.607-07:00Oh, yeah, here's the link. Duh.
TiNT - Testin...Oh, yeah, here's the link. Duh.<br /><br />TiNT - Testing is Not Teaching on Facebook<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/testingisnotteaching</a>beansahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05273094728921760335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84960219746544787482010-08-02T00:26:22.689-07:002010-08-02T00:26:22.689-07:00Hey, have you all seen this Facebook group - TiNT...Hey, have you all seen this Facebook group - TiNT - Testing is Not Teaching. They are in Palm Beach County Fl. They have 11,000 + members - what a great organizing tool.beansahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05273094728921760335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50665054143501218162010-08-01T22:49:16.011-07:002010-08-01T22:49:16.011-07:00"What makes a difference for students in the ...<b><i>"What makes a difference for students in the classroom? I would say - and I have long said - getting the lesson they need. Students should be taught at the frontier of their knowledge and skills - be that at, below, or beyond grade level."</i></b><br /><br />The District has no plan to do this .... instead they look for the next magic bullet .. "Performance Management" ... so they plan to hold teachers accountable for not being able to make ... pathetic plans from central administration work.<br /><br />LOOKING FOR A BIG STRIKE if that District line does not change.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34393542432558404372010-08-01T22:48:31.190-07:002010-08-01T22:48:31.190-07:00Thank you, Charlie, for taking the time to elucida...Thank you, Charlie, for taking the time to elucidate a thorough approach. <br /><br />I have an old friend from high school (I graduated HS in 1977, so I REALLY MEAN "old" :-)) who's now deployed in Afghanistan, and he confirms my thesis, to wit: success is not a question of policy handed down from above, but rather, a question of relationships with individuals. He's developed trusting relationships with hundreds of Afghans, and that does more than a zillion white papers could ever do.<br /><br />The same thing is true in the classroom - because, after all, that's where education happens. It is the relationship a teacher is <i>permitted</i> to have with his/her students, and <i>supported</i> in having, that is the primary determinant of success a school can provide. <br /><br />Of course there are lots of factors outside the school, as well, but Red-Queen-style shouting from above is worse than useless.<br /><br />The recent, or not so recent, howl for "assessments" as the sine qua non of education flies in the face of reality. I'm an evolutionary ecologist (and thus, statistician) by training, so I'm used to people spreading their metaphorical wings to fly in the face of reality, but it never fails to sadden me nonetheless.<br /><br />WV: Maybe I should cheer myself up by going for a bunweve.Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21821125791836054792010-08-01T22:38:42.602-07:002010-08-01T22:38:42.602-07:00As a novice parent to the system -- involved with ...As a novice parent to the system -- involved with the District for two years - with kids in school for only one year...<br /><br />I genuinely hope that teachers will oppose the MAP as the primary method for evaluating their expertise.<br /><br />The only value I see for the MAP would be for the scenario quoted from MGJ - class size doesn't matter.<br /><br />If a teacher has enormous classes and does not know their students individually then perhaps the MAP is useful.<br /><br />Personal experience is that the MAP does not reveal the true expertise of a student only their particular mental or physical health on one select day. If they are not feeling well, or for any other reason are in a distracted mode for the particular day of the test the results are not close to accurate. <br /><br />And for younger students who have not learned problem solving methods when the test poses a problem that they have not experienced in the classroom -- for example K students asked to identify the author and publisher of a book -- unless they have been taught specifically how this information appears in a book with zero knowledge that it might appear without the word 'author' or 'publisher' -- how are they to know?<br /><br />With our personal experience our excellent teacher recognized the results were not accurate for one of our children. With a retest (when she was not a day away from a 103 degree temp.) she scored an amazing 30 point difference in her test. <br /><br />For the record a four point difference from start of year to end of year is considered average.<br /><br />As it exists the MAP is only of value if the eventual intent is to not have a teacher - but an automated version of - that has no personal knowledge of a student. <br /><br />The TV screen in the corner of the class to dispense the standardized instruction plans with no personal intuition or expertise involved.<br /><br />Personal experience is class size does matter. <br /><br />Personal experience is that a devoted and caring teacher makes a tremendous difference for the success of a student that the MAP does not measure.<br /><br />If the MAP was being deployed as an aid to a teacher I would be in favor.<br /><br />Instead the MAP is being deployed as one artificial replacement for a teacher. This is not in the best interest of any of my unique kids in their learning style. This method of measurement is not accurate as to the expertise of a teacher.<br /><br />Boo - hiss - and jettison -- to the current intent of the MAPStepJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11375599834945035820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32682223475869716832010-08-01T21:06:26.675-07:002010-08-01T21:06:26.675-07:00George Carlin's views on the American educatio...George Carlin's views on the American education system<br /><br />Caution - extremely coarse language...<br /><a href="http://sahilachangebringer.blogspot.com/2010/08/george-carlin-bitter-old-cynic-or.html" rel="nofollow">http://sahilachangebringer.blogspot.com/2010/08/george-carlin-bitter-old-cynic-or.html</a>Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91444670955452726402010-08-01T20:04:44.181-07:002010-08-01T20:04:44.181-07:00I would like to hear some competent principals'...I would like to hear some competent principals' response to what Charlie has written here. Is there anything there they would object to? Personally, I think it makes perfect sense.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37571783315398212452010-08-01T17:40:25.619-07:002010-08-01T17:40:25.619-07:00I get that teachers don't want their performan...I get that teachers don't want their performance tied to a new test, any test. I totally agree that students results are due to many other factors and tests are immune from numerous sources of influence and bias (boredom, homelife, ambiguity, being out of synch with curriculum etc etc) and that it isn't a fair process..<br /><br />BUT<br /><br />As a parent, I have liked the MAP test results and information much more than any other test my kid has done (not many). His results were tied closely to what we knew he learned and increased as predicted. He liked the test. It gave us information about what he could be learning next (NOT what the grade level curriculum would offer next). <br /><br />I know that there are parents who worry about the test and have anecdotes about testing debacles but many of those I have spoken to like it too. I don't think we are getting the whole picture if we just hear from educators who dislike the test and are (justifiably) cynical about the interests behind it.Shannonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13865361028544783972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12674449602352977332010-08-01T16:18:18.242-07:002010-08-01T16:18:18.242-07:00Charlie Mas at 10:01 and 10:02 -
You have complet...Charlie Mas at 10:01 and 10:02 -<br /><br />You have completed nailed the model that SHOULD be in place. Who could possibly disagree, and better yet, why would they?Johnny Calcagnohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12198948404356096884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58957748196476630582010-08-01T14:49:43.393-07:002010-08-01T14:49:43.393-07:00Okay, so if the district is running at half-speed ...Okay, so if the district is running at half-speed in the summer, can they tell us where the money goes from those savings? I wouldn't have a problem except they don't acknowledge this fact.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85069547026189063252010-08-01T14:15:33.581-07:002010-08-01T14:15:33.581-07:00I heard that they had some sort of water main brea...I heard that they had some sort of water main break and had to clear the building for awhile one day last week, so that may have been the rush of people you saw.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80500587533534889762010-08-01T14:13:10.015-07:002010-08-01T14:13:10.015-07:00Most local school districts (Tacoma, Highline) clo...Most local school districts (Tacoma, Highline) close the headquarters on Fridays during the summer to save money. SPS tried to do the same at the JSCEE for July, but a couple of departments (legal, Sp Ed) have people working on Fridays, so they can't close the building outright.Annanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48679993455454031922010-08-01T13:53:17.440-07:002010-08-01T13:53:17.440-07:00Emeraldkity, you stumbled on a quiet secret at JSH...Emeraldkity, you stumbled on a quiet secret at JSH. Just as schools shut down and teachers go off, the district headquarters becomes a quiet place (just add tumbleweeds in the parking lot). I have never really gotten a real answer but after many years, I realize they operate at half-speed. <br /><br />I called Facilities one day last week and didn't even get a voice mail pickup. It rang 15 times before I gave up.<br /><br />I get that if schools are closed then teachers aren't working but the headquarters isn't and yet it powers down as if it were a school.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63538285671762170322010-08-01T13:02:23.928-07:002010-08-01T13:02:23.928-07:00@emeraldkity: "Do staffers of the John Stanfo...@emeraldkity: "Do staffers of the John Stanford bldg punch a time clock?"<br /><br />Most do not. There may be shop people that do, but most people there do not.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14341427446081103440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89522101742888139122010-08-01T11:37:51.888-07:002010-08-01T11:37:51.888-07:00Do staffers of the John Stanford bldg punch a time...Do staffers of the John Stanford bldg punch a time clock?<br />I had a records request and hadn't been able to get anyone on the phone, so Friday I got off work early and went down there about three.<br /><br />I had to wait quite a while to find someone who staffed the front desk, who looked up another phone # for me, but then he disappeared unfortunately, as I could not understand the dept email on the message- I waited for quite a while hoping I could find out more info- while replaying the message trying to decipher it- but finally headed back to my car disappointed until a swarm of people going the other way rushed the doors.<br /><br />Couldn't figure out why they were in such a hurry to get back at 4:30, unless they had to punch a clock or something.Jet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37988836282904528172010-08-01T10:14:17.409-07:002010-08-01T10:14:17.409-07:00I really like what you wrote, Charlie... and I ten...I really like what you wrote, Charlie... and I tend to believe that in a true community that honours the creativity, dedication and professionalism of teachers (without coercive competition and unrealistic responsibility for factors they cannot influence or control), we would see this exciting, interested, creative, rigourous teaching and learning happening....Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.com