tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post1804478140212163925..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Parallel Discussion: HC Task Force #1, Student IdentificationMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger100125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4153847935327022622013-10-18T18:01:37.022-07:002013-10-18T18:01:37.022-07:00broken drum, as Lynn noted, there is no cost assoc...broken drum, as Lynn noted, there is no cost associated with providing advanced learning services. Certainly not on a per student basis.<br /><br />HIMSMom, given that the third group I identify is "all students" I don't think that you can say that the capacity there is limited.<br /><br />If a number of students with high cognitive ability are in the program for high performing students then they will find their cohort there. I have only stressed the need for the cohort if the district, the school, and the teacher fail to provide the needed support. First, the cohort will be there, and, second, the idea is to institute protocols so the service delivery is more reliable.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1095070400969615992013-10-18T10:19:06.616-07:002013-10-18T10:19:06.616-07:00broken drum,
I think everyone here is saying we n...broken drum,<br /><br />I think everyone here is saying we need to improve the general education program and that we expect that will decrease demand for other programs. There is disagreement over whether we need to limit the supply of seats in other programs.<br /><br /><b>The program implementation costs exactly what the general education program costs per student. </b> No one is getting anything extra. More time is spent thinking about the program by the people who post on this board than by staff at district headquarters. <br /><br />If your issue is with testing costs - the state grant funds pay for it. We make private school and home-schooled students pay $90 for testing. <br /><br />Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60235177323321634572013-10-18T08:07:13.660-07:002013-10-18T08:07:13.660-07:00There is a limit as to what the district can provi...There is a limit as to what the district can provide and the qualifier is "within budgetary constraints." They don't have unlimited funds for identification nor do they have unlimited funds for program implementation. <br /><br />As was suggested before, increase the expectations in the general education program - improve the math, science, etc., and maybe more students could be served without special programming. It's not about limiting access to programs, but about strengthening the general education program so special services are needed for fewer students. Decrease demand by improving the general education program. <br /><br />I think the number of students choosing AL programs is in part a reflection of the weaknesses in the general education program.<br /><br />Furthermore, the task force seems focused on one component of identification, which again, may be addressed by increasing the challenge in the general education program. <br /><br />broken drumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5756602978258515502013-10-18T07:42:05.920-07:002013-10-18T07:42:05.920-07:00Charlie, I think that to some extent your three gr...Charlie, I think that to some extent your three groups of kids and the program focus you noted for each also limit access to AL services, as there's no natural fit for those who are both high cognitive and high acceleration. You say that such a kid would probably choose the second (acceleration) program, but then they lose the cohort they need (and are likely to have a ceiling on their acceleration anyway under the TBD program delivery model). And haven't you said all along it's the cohort? The current version of APP provides both cohort and acceleration. By separating those out into separate programs, the resulting programs become inadequate for some kids. It may be a small number, but it does limit access. If we had been presented these options a few years ago, we probably would have had to look outside the district instead of choosing APP.<br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65547559949920950902013-10-18T05:14:31.623-07:002013-10-18T05:14:31.623-07:00I find it ironic that an effort that began with a ...I find it ironic that an effort that began with a desire to find and serve all of the students who would benefit from AL services somehow lead to a discussion of how to limit access to AL services.<br /><br />Again, I do not understand the impulse to set the capacity of the program first and then choose the students. We don't do that with Special Education. We don't do that with ELL.<br /><br />Advanced learning services are not a prize. They are not a special bonus awarded to a few students. They are the appropriate academic opportunity that those students need just like Special Education, ELL, and general education services are the appropriate academic opportunity for the students in those programs.<br /><br />Set the criteria to identify students for services then serve the students who need them - however many they are. There is no reason to target any specific number of students. There is no benefit in targeting a specific number of students.<br /><br />If there is a concern about removing too many students from the classroom that's another issue entirely and one that can be addressed through a discussion of the delivery model.<br /><br />I don't want to get on to that question right now, but I don't think that will be too great a problem. I think that many fewer families will choose the first program I described because it puts no focus on acceleration, only on accommodating unique learning styles. I think that most will choose the second program, which is focused on acceleration. There is an excellent chance that the delivery method for the second program will be the Tier II solution for MTSS. That will be provided in the neighborhood school - possibly even in the general education classroom.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9736738935112261412013-10-18T00:53:32.904-07:002013-10-18T00:53:32.904-07:00Emile,
Let's make more rigorous and accelerat...Emile,<br /><br />Let's make more rigorous and accelerated instruction available in the general education program without setting a limit on APP seats. After that, we can see how many students need something different.<br /><br />I don't know that anyone has discussed resource allocation here. Surely you are aware that the bulk of our resources are already allocated to the general education program?Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16516323991387899722013-10-17T23:55:55.687-07:002013-10-17T23:55:55.687-07:00Math Counts makes a great point about taking into ...Math Counts makes a great point about taking into account all of the children of Seattle, AS LONG AS then we can deduct the enrollment of "gifted" private schools such as Seattle Country Day, Gates's Evergreen, etc. So, from the 1300 seats that would be calculated at a 2% rate of 65,000, we would probably be back at requiring about 500 K-12 seats in Seattle Public Schools. We can handle that.<br /><br />Great discussion here -- there seems to be wide agreement that we need to be putting the bulk of our resources into pumping up a rigorous general education program with lots of opportunities for all kids to grow beyond the basic skills mentality of NCLB.<br /><br />EmileAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61099943571695824362013-10-17T22:02:57.947-07:002013-10-17T22:02:57.947-07:00MATH COUNTS weighing in to the poster a few above ...MATH COUNTS weighing in to the poster a few above who was doing % of 50,000 students. <br /><br />Wrong starting point. You need all the school age kids in Seattle, NOT just those in SPS. <br /><br />I posted once that 30% of Seattle kids attend private school and was corrected by someone else to 28%. That 50,000 kids is only 72% of Seattle's kids - but 100% of them are allowed to test and, if qualified, join APP<br /><br />People routinely come from private schools, esp. small montessori, into APP. <br /><br />Also many of the kids in APP might go to private school if they couldn't be served by APP - which makes their parents less invested in public education. <br /><br />It's starting with an artificially small pool of students if you DON'T look at ALL resident students, regardless of where they attend. 2% of over 65,000 is much larger than 2% of 50,000.<br /><br />SIGNEd - Math Counts <br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89459361397041574362013-10-17T14:21:44.686-07:002013-10-17T14:21:44.686-07:00I do think if we fix the neighborhood schools, APP...I do think if we fix the neighborhood schools, APP could serve a smaller number of students in a more individualized way - maybe using NOVA as an example. <br /><br />You should definitely check out the Davidson's THINK summer camp. Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73687254423992554162013-10-17T13:57:02.007-07:002013-10-17T13:57:02.007-07:00Lynn, thanks for the resources. The Davidson Acade...Lynn, thanks for the resources. The Davidson Academy sounds perfect--aside from the moving to Nevada thing, that is. :)<br /><br />I guess it's slowly dawning on me that we have a pretty unique situation, and any changes to SPS' AL programs are not likely to address our needs any better. I get it, and that makes sense given the resource issues. I'm still going to push, however, for the district to at least provide some minimal accommodations, such as allowing on-campus independent study if the school/district can't provide an appropriate course. I know there are other kids who could benefit from that, too. Eager for that delivery methods task force to get going! <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83278092195139629462013-10-17T12:22:07.482-07:002013-10-17T12:22:07.482-07:00*was
*was<br /><br />Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6169802646446018192013-10-17T12:21:18.783-07:002013-10-17T12:21:18.783-07:00That way me - LynnThat way me - LynnLynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54715328176618576952013-10-17T12:20:37.722-07:002013-10-17T12:20:37.722-07:00HIMSmom,
I was thinking about you the other day. ...HIMSmom,<br /><br />I was thinking about you the other day. My kids are 2e - but I get the impression yours is more highly gifted than the average APP student. <br /><br />You probably know about all of these already - but just in case:<br /><br />1) The Davidson Institute for Talent Development serves as a resource for families with very highly gifted students. <br /><br />2) The Davidson Academy of Nevada is a high school for students of any age who are ready to work at the high school level. I know there is at least one student from Seattle enrolled there.<br /><br />3) Finally, I've spent quite a bit of time on the website of Bard College at Simon's Rock - an early college.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88691300499563857842013-10-17T12:00:40.254-07:002013-10-17T12:00:40.254-07:00SPS parent,
Thanks for your patience. I reacted to...<b>SPS parent</b>,<br />Thanks for your patience. I reacted too quickly. <br /><br />I think increasing AL opportunities in neighborhood schools would reduce enrollment in APP without putting artificial limits on the program. <br /><br /><b>a parent</b>,<br /><br />I really appreciate your point of view. Those kids who are outliers (because they need much more than a couple years of acceleration in one or more subjects or their intellectual and social development are wildly asynchronous or they are 2e) are the ones for whom APP is absolutely necessary. I've heard Julie B. say that at TM they do work on social skills, and that some of the kids are such outliers that her goal is just to ensure that the school system does not damage them. I want every APP principal and teacher to understand that.<br /><br />I think we wouldn't have to have these discussions if NCLB hadn't forced schools to focus only on ensuring every student makes certain minimal test scores. Can Shauna Heath and Michael Tolley be convinced that it is necessary to provide academic challenges to every student?<br /><br />The discussion I assume is coming on delivery methods will be interesting. The solutions can't depend on smaller class sizes and must avoid making scheduling impossible for teachers and principals.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48915741448908126982013-10-17T11:51:38.364-07:002013-10-17T11:51:38.364-07:00A Parent, beautiful stories and great examples. I...A Parent, beautiful stories and great examples. I suggest sending your comment to the AL interim director, the Superintendent and the Board so they know what is getting missed somehow (and shouldn't). <br /><br />I also worked with some homeless students last year and had an extremely bright and talented student who I feel is so full of promise. I know the student is in SPS now and at a good school (and has a mentor) so I have great hope for that student's future.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8098119432274467412013-10-17T11:51:16.848-07:002013-10-17T11:51:16.848-07:00Rlated to the Group A as defined by Lynn: this sen...Rlated to the Group A as defined by Lynn: this sentiment has been expressed by APP teachers, not just parents. There is a desire by some teachers to re-evaluate students that they perceive as not belonging. There probably does need to be a more clearly defined exit plan to support those that are struggling for some reason. Without going into that debate, I have to wonder how @parent's "a student who is stuck" would appear to teachers. If the class work holds little interest or challenge, and their work degrades, would they look like a student that "doesn't belong?" The lack of challenge is a real issue for some students. They are stuck as the program does have a ceiling and has become a 2 year ahead, no more and sometimes less, kind if program. Most private schools are no better equipped to serve such outliers.<br /><br />another parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89752077542969327662013-10-17T11:34:14.874-07:002013-10-17T11:34:14.874-07:00Lynn, I don't know that your "Group A&quo...Lynn, I don't know that your "Group A" necessarily wants to reduce access to APP; I think such folks just want the program to adequately serve kids like theirs. If the program model and delivery method allowed for greater flexibility in serving kids who want greater rigor and faster acceleration, that would do the trick. It may be wishful thinking, but I'm hoping the new legislation will result in a little more flexibility and accommodation. "Each student identified as a highly capable student shall be provided educational opportunities which take into account such student's unique needs and capabilities." <br /><br />HIMSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24812434394144172512013-10-17T11:27:57.005-07:002013-10-17T11:27:57.005-07:00It's interesting that the post was read as a d...It's interesting that the post was read as a desire to limit APP enrollment, rather than the fear of such a possibility. Neither position was explicitly stated. Limiting enrollment in such a way leads to all kinds of downsides - can you imagine the competition and stress on a student and the number of students that would go unserved? <br /><br />It was not written in support of such a system, but with the rumblings about growing enrollment in APP, I have to wonder what means will be taken to limit future enrollment:<br />1) raise the cut-off?<br />2) rank and waitlist students?<br />3) increase AL opportunities in neighborhood schools? <br /><br />Any and all could be done. Of course choice 3 seems like a good place to start. There are outliers in APP and how to serve those students should be part of the discussion, as they are the reason APP came about in the first place.SPS parentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20750376278789896192013-10-17T11:07:42.036-07:002013-10-17T11:07:42.036-07:00Thank you ZB. And thank you Charlie, especially y...Thank you ZB. And thank you Charlie, especially your posts @ 4:11 and 6:33. <br /><br />I have thought for sometime now that Seattle's APP has drifted from its original intention. I'm putting aside the "how best to ID" aspect, though that's a big part of why it has gone down the path to where it is today. What Seattle is doing reflects what many gifted programs look like in other districts be it Fairfax county or Bellevue's ( it had an eval done recently, quite an interesting read). I think in part this is why NGAC is undergoing some re-examination and talking about a paradigm shift.<br /><br />I am optimistic at another stab at AL. I present 3 cases in point to illustrate. <br />* the first is quite similar to Diane's post about her dyslexic child. It is a problem difficult to fix in part because this district does a poor job with dyslexic students, ID ing them and providing best practices to help such students. What I've seen is quite depressing. Parents are often left on their own, often paying out of pocket for tutoring. For those who can't, there's the resource room and SPES staff, but unfortunately without the expertise to help such children. I've volunteered 3 years in such a room. Diane is right though APP as a program would not helped with dyslexia, but could meet the student's need for the sciences and math. <br /><br />*the unidentified child. When I think of this, I think of one remarkable child I encountered as a parent volunteer in 2nd grade. This child according to other parents was "homeless" and came and went to school by way of taxi (that was the proof). I don't know if that was true or not and didn't ask. What I saw in the classroom was far more intriguing. I volunteered twice a week in math and science. This very active, unable to sit in his seat child was the one who has the hand up first with questions or answers, usually both, and looked as if ready to burst. In one science unit, the measurement unit with weights and fulcrum, he was the first to figure out by moving the fulcrum, you can adjust balance of weights. He had no understanding of the full explanation at that point, but while other children were playing with types of things to weigh, he played around with the whole structure, contrary to what the teacher wanted to do at the time ( a negative mark for not following instruction). The next year, he was no longer at our school.<br /><br />The second case is ongoing and quite frustrating. It's a situation of a student who is stuck. The parents are just realizing this as they watched their child who in 5th grade was reading Chaucer at home and has been working backward in time and presently reading works by Ancient Greek philosophers and mathematicians in MS (because this child wants to know the hows and whys men govern). The child has spectrum designation, but also has major executive function issues so MS has been challenging, not because the work is difficult, but because it comes with a schedul/grade and the work is far too easy and uninteresting. The will to engage in school is rapidly disappearing. There are no peers (friends, yes)in the classroom for this student. The teachers are loaded with 150+students and a "C" student with aptitude is triaged behind ones who have greater needs. However, this "average" student is on a slide not just academically, but a growing sense of personal failure. <br /><br />What happens here I think happens everywhere. It is these children who affect me most. I don't know how much a change in AL can help as some of the problems are systemic. But I think many children like this need a NOVA like place from elementary school on up. High School is far too, too late.<br /><br />-a parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-5757227323134028262013-10-17T10:47:39.527-07:002013-10-17T10:47:39.527-07:00As I see it, there are three potential groups who ...As I see it, there are three potential groups who would like to reduce access to APP:<br /><br />Group A - Has a child enrolled in APP, does not find it challenging and believes some enrolled students do not belong.<br /><br />Group B - Has a child enrolled in APP, would prefer to attend their neighborhood school, and wants to take the peer group back with them.<br /><br />Group C - Does not have a child enrolled in APP and wants those APP students back in the neighborhood school for their volunteer energy and willingness to subsidize PTA projects or because they believe that acceleration opportunities will come with those students.<br /><br />Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2341562706358803912013-10-17T10:35:01.350-07:002013-10-17T10:35:01.350-07:00It absolutely does. The district could identify 1%...It absolutely does. The district could identify 1% or 2.3% or 98% of it's students as the most highly capable. Why would you want to do that though? Why not instead identify those children with special academic needs and find a way to meet them?Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75853162192224649542013-10-17T10:34:23.935-07:002013-10-17T10:34:23.935-07:00Just running the numbers: if there are 50,000 stud...Just running the numbers: if there are 50,000 students, with an average of 3850 per grade, then around 90 students per grade would potentially be identified as "most highly capable."<br /><br />Is it possible the district would go this route? Other districts do, but it runs counter to the way SPS has historically placed students.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70124207831621534662013-10-17T10:20:37.524-07:002013-10-17T10:20:37.524-07:00Could the district define highly capable as the to...Could the district define highly capable as the top 2.3% of SPS students (as ranked by a matrix of standardized scores) as opposed to all students that score in the top 2.3% on standardized tests? <br /><br />The WAC language talks about the "most highly capable," not just highly capable. <br /><br /><b>WAC 392-170-075<br /><br />Selection of most highly capable</b> <br /><br /><i>Each school district's board of directors shall adopt policies and procedures for the selection of the most highly capable students by the multidisciplinary selection committee. Such policies and selection procedures:<br /><br />(1) Shall not violate federal and state civil rights laws including, without limitation, chapters 28A.640 and 28A.642 RCW;<br /><br />(2) Shall be based on professional judgment as to which students will benefit the most from inclusion in the district's program; and<br /><br />(3) Shall be based on a selection system that determines which students are the most highly capable as defined under WAC 392-170-055, and other data collected in the assessment process.</i><br /><br />Doesn't that leave open the possibility of limiting enrollment?SPS parentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84225503728708323642013-10-17T08:28:18.059-07:002013-10-17T08:28:18.059-07:00The state has numbers on district highly capable, ...The state has numbers on district highly capable, by category (2010-2011 and before):<br /><br /><a href="http://www.k12.wa.us/HighlyCapable/reports.aspx" rel="nofollow">HCP student enrollment by categorical</a><br /><br />-numbersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81139581464663427642013-10-17T08:13:19.559-07:002013-10-17T08:13:19.559-07:00In other words, we are not "trying to correct...In other words, we are not "trying to correct all societies ills"; when looking at appropriate group norms based on opportunity to learn we are merely using the test correctly to identify high aptitude children. <br /><br />The correct norming for aptitude would be on opportunity to learn, not by school (maybe FRL & ELL eligibility, as a practical matter). <br /><br />zbAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com