tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post2003786391142243923..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Revenge of the Students - Garfield SpeaksMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34759045420611338322019-12-01T10:15:02.896-08:002019-12-01T10:15:02.896-08:00@Oh Brother Elephant in the Room is not Melissa. I...@Oh Brother Elephant in the Room is not Melissa. I had previously stated in a previous post, race and class are often intertwined, especially in Seattle. We do not to have a large majority of low income whites like other places, nor middle income blacks like some other places. We do have a majority of affluent Asians on the Eastside, and low income whites outside of Seattle. <br /><br />Educational research in this area has been focused on teasing apart race and class to better understand the achievement/opportunity gap to best inform policy decisions for schools. The latest research has important implications. There have been some landmark studies on the topic. Sharing again below for those interested. <br /><br />https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/09/we-should-integrate-schools-based-on-class-not-race/<br />https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2019/09/23/new-data-tool-sh-achievement-gap/<br /><br />https://edsource.org/2019/poverty-levels-in-schools-key-determinant-of-achievement-gaps-not-racial-or-ethnic-composition-study-finds/617821<br /><br />And this research http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/may13/vol70/num08/The-Widening-Income-Achievement-Gap.aspx<br /> <br /><br />Elephant in RoomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17528087985260858402019-12-01T08:48:02.634-08:002019-12-01T08:48:02.634-08:00Oh Brother, I have NEVER submitted an anonymous co...Oh Brother, I have NEVER submitted an anonymous comment. Never.<br /><br />I don't have to because there are plenty of readers - like you - who chime in. The comments I made about TAF are the same ones I have said over and over. I note that those who have no problem with the choice of WMS seem to look away when I point out how many fewer minority students there are there AND that it just happens to be an HCC location.<br /><br />Funny how that works out.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71228375806832878672019-12-01T02:50:19.752-08:002019-12-01T02:50:19.752-08:00"As I stated repeatedly, in Seattle race &..."As I stated repeatedly, in Seattle race & class are intertwined..."<br /><br />Who stated repeatedly?...Oh, yeah, the elephant in the room.<br /><br />Oh Brother Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76980917412898115912019-12-01T02:47:02.160-08:002019-12-01T02:47:02.160-08:00westello writes in South Seattle Emerald letter:
...westello writes in South Seattle Emerald letter:<br /><br />"There’s another elephant in the room. Why did the district pick Washington Middle School when it is majority white and TAF, by choice, serves mostly minority students. The district could have chosen at least three other locations with majority minority populations and yet they didn’t."<br /><br />Elephant in the Room sounds like Melissa writing under an anonymous name on her own blog.<br /><br />Oh Brother Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28940064950715683282019-11-30T19:00:33.462-08:002019-11-30T19:00:33.462-08:00About Time, oh so if parents like the segregation,...About Time, oh so if parents like the segregation, that's okay but if they don't, that's also okay. I'm getting dizzy from the whiplash.<br /><br />Privacy Proponent, I say this over and over - in the future everyone will have some embarrassing online problem in their youth. But if the nature of it was leaning in a direction like being racist or sexist, etc., again, colleges/universities and companies might choose differently just to avoid any possible problems.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2908343159003610982019-11-30T14:36:50.720-08:002019-11-30T14:36:50.720-08:00Employers google too. The Garfield student's b...Employers google too. The Garfield student's book contains some very personal info. There may come a time that they regret having shared so much. <br /><br />privacy proponent<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75242210116152767652019-11-30T11:52:49.785-08:002019-11-30T11:52:49.785-08:00According to the article, "Nationally, studen...According to the article, "Nationally, students from African American, Latinx, and Native American families are underrepresented in gifted education by 43%, 30%, and 13% respectively (as of 2016). Students with disabilities and who are still learning English are also underrepresented by roughly 75%." Our Supt just doesn't get it. <br /><br />sighAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46897419806073839762019-11-30T09:25:10.415-08:002019-11-30T09:25:10.415-08:00Why are you talking about the desire for opted in ...Why are you talking about the desire for opted in racial/ethnic segregation and HCC alignment as somehow related? HC programs across the country are working toward increasing representation of underserved students. <br /><br />Your implication is disturbing, at best. Parents who choose those Charters overwhelmingly have students who are FRL and/or EL, and have been failed by their local public schools. Seeking a school that might finally recognize the needs of their culture and produce good results is what is driving these families to charters. HCC is supposed to be identifying ALL highly capable students.<br /><br />The Office of Civil Rights is now tracking demographic data for HC programs. Yeah, folks, SPS is being watched nationally. <br /><br />https://www.nagc.org/blog/gifted-and-talented-finding-and-calculating-representation-rates<br /><br />About TimeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77510773339587200872019-11-29T19:49:13.989-08:002019-11-29T19:49:13.989-08:00"But regarding policy in education, research ..."But regarding policy in education, research is clear we need to eliminate high poverty schools. We need integration of socio-economic class to best work on the achievement gap in education."<br /><br />This is very much the bottom line to move that needle.<br /><br />I will observe that for all this talk of segregation, you need only cast your eyes over to charter schools. They are more segregated than traditional publics AND parents like it. I've read story after story where Black mothers prefer a school where the majority of staff are of color and so is the student population. That has made for interesting dynamics especially at the "no-excuses" KIPP-type schools. In LA, there are several charters where the primary population is Hispanic/Latinx and again, the parents like it especially for those whose first language is Spanish. <br /><br />Should charters be required - for the good of their students - to be more integrated? <br /><br />I'm not say charters and HCC align perfectly but to believe that segregation is always a problem stand in stark contrast as to what is actually happening out in school districts across the country.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56245181304215169322019-11-29T17:41:39.365-08:002019-11-29T17:41:39.365-08:00I realize I may have made things sound more simpli...I realize I may have made things sound more simplistic than intended in regards to socio-economics. In many cases immigrants do in 2-3 generations climb the socio-economic ladder in the UW, despite prejudice toward various immigrant groups. Sometimes even in 1 generation nowadays, although that is not the norm. However, in many other cases it is much more challenging and difficult. Poverty, lack of quality and higher education combined with other factors can make it near impossible, and this is for all groups, even non-immigrant poor whites. Historical oppression and the legacies toward AA & Native American people is a unique factor in why these groups continue to face obstacles socio-economically. <br /><br />But regarding policy in education, research is clear we need to eliminate high poverty schools. We need integration of socio-economic class to best work on the achievement gap in education. <br /><br />Elephant in RoomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59673113828428928752019-11-29T17:25:18.920-08:002019-11-29T17:25:18.920-08:00Salut & SMH Of course racism is involved. The...Salut & SMH Of course racism is involved. There are important differences between groups. The AA (native born) & Native Americans have the legacies of hundreds of years of systematic oppression as well. <br /><br />The Latinx population, many of whom are immigrants or descendants, who identify with various races including white, there are distinctions similar to other immigrant groups historically to the US. Many have reached the middle class after a generation or two. However many more low income Latinx are still immigrating, so we always have a large population that is less well off.<br /><br />Education research and policy implications are clear in K--12, we need to focus on eliminating the concentration of high poverty schools. The integration of socio-economic class is a way forward. In Seattle this would also correlate to race. As I stated repeatedly, in Seattle race & class are intertwined. We have highly segregated schools both racially and socioeconomically. <br /><br />Elephant in Room <br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78699972319654450922019-11-29T15:46:13.596-08:002019-11-29T15:46:13.596-08:00In the context of Seattle, race is pretty much a p...In the context of Seattle, race is pretty much a proxy for class. The difference is that race is visible. Were we simply to use income, as a correlative of class instead of race, we run the risk of devaluing the optical reality and lived experience of students in favor of something more abstract and thus more easily discounted. Challenges we can see will always get more attention than ones we can’t. That is why race and policies addressing it have to have premier significance in a diverse and unequal city. <br /><br />SalutAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88587138772878401572019-11-29T15:33:23.050-08:002019-11-29T15:33:23.050-08:00@Elephant in th Room
I am fully aware of the res...@Elephant in th Room <br /><br />I am fully aware of the research already.<br /><br />Here's what you're skipping over: Black, Latino and Native American students are disproportionately living in poverty BECAUSE of white supremacy.<br /><br />Therefore, segregation by race usually accompanies poverty.<br /><br />The cited research and what was stated by myself and others is complementary, not mutually exclusive.<br /><br />This question remains: Why do so many of you keep trying so hard to deny the obvious? It's called the history of racism in the United States that continues. Here are some basic facts about its persistent effects, in terms of FRL:<br /><br />https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/reports/2018/02/21/447051/systematic-inequality/<br /><br />https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2019/03/14/new-explanation-stubborn-persistence-racial-wealth-gap/%3foutputType=amp<br /><br />SMH<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28507049665367622072019-11-29T15:12:46.550-08:002019-11-29T15:12:46.550-08:00From the Mother Jones Article:
"Even after ...<br /> From the Mother Jones Article: <br /><br />"Even after controlling for economic status, attendance at a school with a big racial attendance gap (i.e., heavily black or heavily white) leads to big differences in black-white achievement scores (0.610). However, once you control for differences in school poverty, the effect goes away (0.013)."<br /><br />In other words, this confirms what we’ve known for a long time about the effect of concentrated poverty. If a black student goes go to a school that’s heavily black but middle class, it’s no big deal. But if a black student goes to a school that’s heavily poor, he’s doomed.<br /><br />Needless to say, schools that are heavily black tend to also be heavily poor, so this effect can be hard to tease out without careful study. Nonetheless, Reardon is clear:<br /><br />Using scores from hundreds of millions of tests taken in the last decade by students in thousands of school districts, we find a very strong link between racial school segregation and academic achievement gaps. More segregated school systems have larger achievement gaps, on average, and their gaps grow faster during elementary and middle schools than in less segregated ones.<br /><br />….Why is this? We find that the association between racial school segregation and achievement gaps appears to operate entirely through differences in exposure to poor schoolmates….Racial segregation matters, therefore, because it concentrates black and Hispanic students in high-poverty schools, not because of the racial composition of their schools, per se.<br /><br />If you want to take away any good news from this, here’s a glimmer of hope: If the problem really is class more than race, then we can make a case for desegregating our schools based on class. According to Reardon, this would actually be more effective, and it’s probably slightly less incendiary than desegregation plans based on race."<br /><br /><br />Elephant in RoomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48007709251599843942019-11-29T14:58:47.575-08:002019-11-29T14:58:47.575-08:00JJ, SMH and others, please please read the most up...JJ, SMH and others, please please read the most up to date data being shared by the education world and scholars and researchers. <br /><br />Are you aware how much the black-white achievement gap has narrowed in the past 50 years? <br /><br />The data points squarely at class at perpetuating a gap. Multiple studies are pointing to this as the cause...not race! You must look more broadly than Seattle where race & class are intersected in order to broaden your understandings. <br /><br />If we don't address the root cause, we get nothing but more segregated schools. Honestly, integrating schools so we don't have schools that are predominately FRL is the answer. <br /><br />"While racial segregation is important, it’s not the race of one’s classmates that matters,” the researchers concluded in the study released today. “It’s the fact that in America today, racial segregation brings with it very unequal concentrations of students in high and low poverty schools.”<br /><br />https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/09/we-should-integrate-schools-based-on-class-not-race/<br />https://news.stanford.edu/press-releases/2019/09/23/new-data-tool-sh-achievement-gap/<br /><br />https://edsource.org/2019/poverty-levels-in-schools-key-determinant-of-achievement-gaps-not-racial-or-ethnic-composition-study-finds/617821<br /><br />And this research http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/may13/vol70/num08/The-Widening-Income-Achievement-Gap.aspx<br /><br />"The black-white achievement gap was considerably larger than the income achievement gap among cohorts born in the 1950s and 1960s, but now it is considerably smaller than the income achievement gap. This change is the result of both the substantial progress made in reducing racial inequality in the 1960s and 1970s and the sharp increase in economic inequality in education outcomes in more recent decades."<br /><br /><br /><br />Elephant in Room<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40595237325108597102019-11-29T13:20:21.234-08:002019-11-29T13:20:21.234-08:00About Time, yes, there were comments about that ph...About Time, yes, there were comments about that phrasing but that doesn't mean that comment is recent but only that it was said at one time. You'd have to show me that there is student who said it to Juneau.<br /><br />Why no outrage on segregation? I have said to district officials that something should be done and for years I'd get a shrug. <br /><br />As for the student, I did write about him.<br /><br />Sorry, if you are picking on kids, it's NOT victim-speak. And saying high school kids have to have " journalistic prowess" is a bit much.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6235362530724193112019-11-29T13:11:18.652-08:002019-11-29T13:11:18.652-08:00@JJ "This was the beginning of modern white s...@JJ "This was the beginning of modern white supremacy. This white European supremist ideology was used to justify the destruction of Natives peoples and slavery.I'm not calling anyone racist especially the kids. They just don't seem to understand the history of white supremacy and how it has permeated our society so deeply.So deeply that privileged white people can feel victimized and feel that they have to give something up for there to be a fair society."<br /><br />Wow, you are reaching if you think that this SPS program is directly related to the slave trade. What about all the Asian kids who predominate in the programs on the Eastside and nationwide with rates higher than whites? <br /><br />This issue relates much more to class and education, than race. The affluent people of color I know have kids achieving at the same rates as affluent whites. Those with parents who went to college are achieving at just as high rates. Many also chose to live in higher income neighborhoods, as opposed to lower income. <br /><br />Class is the big elephant in the room in these discussions because this is Seattle. <br /><br />Go to a rural or small town and see how many white kids outside of Seattle are doing, many receiving public assistance and try to relate that directly to the slave trade and white supremacy. <br /><br />Elephant in roomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43552663289388549312019-11-29T12:29:35.432-08:002019-11-29T12:29:35.432-08:00Of course doxxing or threatening to do so is horri...Of course doxxing or threatening to do so is horrible.<br /><br />Get real.<br /><br />SMHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48234266454270188802019-11-29T12:04:19.842-08:002019-11-29T12:04:19.842-08:00@SMH
Do you think the ends justify the means? Do ...@SMH<br /><br />Do you think the ends justify the means? Do you think it is okay for adults to bully and target students? How about threatening to doxx them and their racial identity on Facebook? Are we teaching students that vilifying the press is okay? <br /><br />How are you with all that? People are asking. <br /><br />More Noise PleaseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67692973063360198542019-11-29T11:14:27.750-08:002019-11-29T11:14:27.750-08:00Melissa, do a blog search. The comments about APPa...Melissa, do a blog search. The comments about APPartheid are recent on your own blog.<br /><br />Juneau is relatively new to Seattle so she heard the terms recently by Garfield students, as she stated.<br /><br />Again, why is the focus on the words and not what caused rise to them--the segregation? Where's the outrage about that? <br />The Garfield student is on a book tour with real-time details about the segregation and privilege in Garfield HC. Why is this not the topic here?<br /><br />"Discredit the students" is more of the victim-speak. Legitimate opinions were offered about journalistic prowess. If the journalism isn't up to snuff, they discredit themselves.<br /><br />About Time<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68857225497849597642019-11-29T10:54:58.551-08:002019-11-29T10:54:58.551-08:00SMH, I don't see anyone crying victim but it h...SMH, I don't see anyone crying victim but it has to be okay, in a public school district, to have open discussions.<br /><br />About Time, those comments don't mean that this is still on-going. I heard about that comment such a long time ago. <br /><br />I don't get trying to discredit the students, though. Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11593326096166345482019-11-29T10:48:17.082-08:002019-11-29T10:48:17.082-08:00Melissa, do a search of your own blog. There have ...Melissa, do a search of your own blog. There have been multiple comments in recent years about people being upset about the term "APPartheid" being used at Garfield. <br /><br />This continued diversionary tactic to focus on Juneau repeating what she heard, rather than the issues that make the terms get used in the first place, is a desperate attempt to avoid dealing with the obvious.<br /><br />It's obvious to Juneau.<br />It's segregation in our "progressive" city and she's not afraid to do something about it.<br /><br />About TimeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50143940944255615982019-11-29T10:40:24.840-08:002019-11-29T10:40:24.840-08:00As JJ pointed out above, we've got the benefic...As JJ pointed out above, we've got the beneficiaries of the system playing the victim.<br /><br />You are actually name calling as you react to people who disagree with you.<br /><br />Just because you feel uncomfortable doesn't mean you have any claim to victimhood. People have a right to disagree with you.<br /><br />Making a solid observation about writing skills is now an attack? <br /><br />SMH<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25765323731857234112019-11-29T10:15:28.839-08:002019-11-29T10:15:28.839-08:00More Noise Please, I agree.
Anytime it is tried t...More Noise Please, I agree.<br /><br />Anytime it is tried to shut down discussion by some kind of name-calling that would seem to be shaming, that's bullying. What is worse is to name-call but not truly explain who you are talking about ("parents of privilege" which would seem to indicate all white parents/guardians but again, who knows plus "suspend your privilege" which would indicate some action by those parents but the district won't say what they mean). <br /><br />Interestingly, I can't find either phrase being used at either the Times or The Stranger. I don't think The Stranger would use it without explaining it and the Times would be on thin ice in some quarters of their readership if they used it. I'm out the door but it would be an interesting issue to track. As well, if the Times did start using it - in an effort to prop up Juneau - you all should call them up and ask, "Tell me, what does this mean?" <br /><br />Keep 'em honest.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17646627708820558172019-11-29T09:59:17.620-08:002019-11-29T09:59:17.620-08:00There is only one word to describe the tone and po...There is only one word to describe the tone and positioning of the people who will not listen to facts, but instead, revert to name calling and confirmation bias to deflect from their talking points. <br /><br />It's called puritanism. <br /><br />It would merely be another term, if this mentality wasn't so dangerous. It is quite similar to the cries of "fake news", "communist", and "terrorist" that is used by people who want to gin up people's emotions to shame people, short circuit rational thinking and discussion, in order to dominate. They shout their epithets louder now because the jury is in. And the verdict is not looking good for the people who now are okay with calling peoples' employers to smear them.<br /><br />Our superintendent in the media, and her acolytes that are ever present on the SPS Comminity Discussion FB page are Exhibit A of puritanism on the issue of advanced learning. Now that students have weighed in--as in "not legal adults", we are now seeing these epithets and bullying being directed at students BY ADULTS. But, not to worry, they are "other people's kids". People who do this have no business being within 500 feet of a school. <br /><br />It is sad these people who claim are for social justice not only side with an administration that encourages parents to neglect their children ("stand aside", "stop hoarding resources", when as a commenter pointed out, it is actually rationing that is going on), are now engaging in the smearing of kids at Garfield who disagree with the adults. People employed as administrators as well as leaders in PTSAs are doing it. <br /><br />This is the example that is being set. This is the so called modelling we are allowing to happen. Maybe this will fly in their tiny little bubble who think they are the advanced revolutionaries that are going to transform public education, but I will guarantee you the general public will not put up with it when it is finally exposed. And it will be exposed. And people will be leaving the building when it happens.<br /><br />There is only one word for puritanism in action: bullying. It's time to call it out. People have the right to be angry, and to call out racist behavior, and to demand it stop. But people do not have the right to be cruel to their colleagues, or students and their families because of a policy issue. They do not have the right to bully students on the internet.<br /><br />More Noise PleaseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com