tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post2006250188225912413..comments2024-03-18T16:51:10.406-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: New Start Times ProposedMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32537140625366528552009-02-20T19:46:00.000-08:002009-02-20T19:46:00.000-08:008AM for K-5 is plain ridiculous. Not only that, se...8AM for K-5 is plain ridiculous. Not only that, several schools impacted by closures and changes to programs get hit again. Just keep piling it on. I think we might do much better in another school system.SkritchDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00013620521570017796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69391670491562164552009-02-20T11:41:00.000-08:002009-02-20T11:41:00.000-08:00I'm exhausted just fr reading yr post. Well, I'm t...I'm exhausted just fr reading yr post. Well, I'm trying to stay slightly optimistic here...and I want to use this forum to note that several pple w/in Transportation Dept have told me that this list is malleable and WILL shift as they add/delete schools from the 8 am start time. SO - raising a ruckus about why 2 all-city draw elementary-only schools on here and requesting analysis beyond the weak powerpt presented is only way to attempt to create accountability for the proposal. Thnx for addressing my concerns, and for all yr feedback Charlie!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22958706368596702232009-02-20T08:50:00.000-08:002009-02-20T08:50:00.000-08:00Constructive suggestions... constructive suggestio...Constructive suggestions... constructive suggestions... hmmm...<BR/><BR/><BR/>Nope.<BR/><BR/>After you have written to the folks in Transportation, written to Mr. Kennedy, the COO, and written to the Superintendent, seeking a rationale and making your case, there are no more constructive actions you can take.<BR/><BR/>It must be time to either open the floor to destructive suggestions or quit contending the matter.<BR/><BR/>My first destructive suggestion is to pursue a WASL boycott by all APP students until the District fulfills their commitments to this community. Make a list of the District's stated commitments and set an objectively measurable benchmark for each. Then hold all of the APP students out of the WASL until every commitment is met.<BR/><BR/>My second destructive suggestion is a bus boycott. Don't put your children on the bus to school that arrives at 8:00. Instead, form carpools that will get every APP student to Lowell or Thurgood Marshall at 9:15 each morning. Let the buses run empty and let the classrooms be empty until 9:15. I wonder if the State will reimburse the District for empty buses. I wonder if the District's reimbursement is based on actual ridership. If so, then it will cost the District dearly to run empty buses.<BR/><BR/>These two actions would require a signficant amount of organization. It's not impossible or even improbable, but it will be difficult.<BR/><BR/>The other option is to quit. Enroll your child in another program in another school. You'll have other problems, but you won't have this one.<BR/><BR/>Ideally, the constructive suggestions would be successful. I would even find it good if the destructive suggestions were successful. Realistically, however, I doubt anything will work to change this plan. They have their own priorities and reasons for these decisions and your concerns simply carry no weight with them. Moreover, so long as people quit, your concerns never will carry any weight with them.<BR/><BR/>If you ever want to see any change, you will have to fight. You will have to fight for that change, and you will have to fight for future changes, and you will have to fight for every change until they get the message that you will always fight instead of quit.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64060413515986869672009-02-19T10:52:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:52:00.000-08:00Charlie, yr feedback re the Bd may be a fact, but ...Charlie, yr feedback re the Bd may be a fact, but we need to find SOME way to fight this or at the very least, demand analysis as to WHY Lowell/TM are the only elementaries on the 8 am list (meanwhile some K-8 all-city draws and MS are excluded?). We impacted parents - already experiencing severe change (TM, Lowell, TTMinor)need to show whoever has power to say Yay or Nay to this proposal that it impacts way more than getting up an hr earlier. e.g. - day-end times; after-school daycare costs and schedules (wh/will now impact a significant FRL as well as working parents population); impact on special ed population; after-school activities will be affected; we may lose good teachers due to this?; working parents coordinating schedules of 2 kids at diff schools or non-site after-school daycares; and choosing the schools/kids w/v. long commutes already, pushing those commutes to a higher-traffic time. Those of you who think yr not impacted - think again, because Transp. tells me this is not final proposal, and other elementaries CAN and WILL be added to the 8 am list, even after Open Enrollment closes. So if anyone has effective ideas about how to demand analysis and accountability for including my school (yes I'm advocating for my school now, that's all I - and the other beleagured TM/TT/Lowell parents have the energy for post-split/post-closure) and getting it in front of the "Decision Makers" (the Queen, perhaps?) - for getting feedback on timeline and process - then please do tell. I know its not Bob "trying to hang onto my job here" Vaughn and T Bishop has never returned an email/vm all year - we've sent hundreds complaining about the already unreliable, inefficient bus service. Someone said TB was a MGJ pick - anyone know if that's true? Who controls Transp? Constructive suggestions are greatly appreciated, and otherwise, thnx for letting me vent!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60546520813200698152009-02-19T10:23:00.000-08:002009-02-19T10:23:00.000-08:00This Board has been resolute about not oversteppin...This Board has been resolute about not overstepping their bounds. It was a campaign issue for a number of them - they ran against activist incumbents they accused of micro-managing the Superintendent. They all signed that stupid Affirmation of Responsibility which says that they will:<BR/><BR/>"<I>Focus on the policy work of the Board and monitor progress on the indicators of success articulated in our strategic plan, leaving the day-to-day operation of the district to the superintendent and staff.</I>"<BR/><BR/>The Board has shown no appetite for questioning the decisions of the superintendent or staff. For these reasons and more, I would not expect the Board to intervene on this matter.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75712291005295105532009-02-18T18:13:00.000-08:002009-02-18T18:13:00.000-08:00I agree with Charlie that changing start times doe...I agree with Charlie that changing start times does not require a Board vote. But I would not abandon the idea of pressing the Board on this issue. There are questions of equity here and the Board should question the Superintendent and staff about the wisdom of doing this. Her actions reflect on them and how much politcal capital are they willing to gamble?another momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12303476240929715442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78376846171475631502009-02-18T17:06:00.000-08:002009-02-18T17:06:00.000-08:00Can the board stop this if it chooses to? If you ...Can the board stop this if it chooses to? <BR/><BR/>If you read the thread on this issue on Harium's blog, it seems that he is not convinced this is a good plan. Perhaps other board members would respond to a letter-writing campaign? <BR/><BR/>But, that only works if the board actually has the authority to stop or change the plan. Does anyone know?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8315381298353348542009-02-18T15:57:00.000-08:002009-02-18T15:57:00.000-08:00I dont know how we have influence over any Distric...I dont know how we have influence over any District decisions unless we parents band together and take some concerted action.... you've seen what's happened with the closure issue... the majority of Board members refusing to listen to community input, cosmetic changes made to a plan thats inherently flawed and the implementation of which is now proceeding adhoc without the resources and forethought to make that process a success...<BR/><BR/>I've been choosing not to bus my kindergarten child to AS#1 because the bus stop is too far away for him to walk and so I have to get the car out anyway... <BR/><BR/>I still wont be using the bus with this earlier start time because I still have the problem of getting us to the bus stop...<BR/><BR/>But I wont be getting my 5.5 yr old son to school for 8am... we will have tardy slips every day and I'll be getting letters from the District threatening me with some kind of consequence... <BR/><BR/>And early start times mean early dismissal times, which messes up my work schedule, which I had specifically negotiated with my employer around my son's school day... which I now cant change because other people's shifts are synched with mine...<BR/><BR/>We've had an interesting discussion at AS#1 about our relationship with the system - there's been talk about not describing the District as 'they'... there has been expresssed a philosophical perspective that the District is 'we'... which is something about community and responsibility and accountability and empowerment, rather than victimisation...<BR/><BR/>However... I dont accept that point of view... nothing I have seen coming from the District and the Board over the 6 months of so of my intense experience with SPS has given me any indication that there is a 'we' operating, despite the fact that the community voted the Board into being and the District Staff are public servants...<BR/><BR/>I've said before that allowing the closure plan to go ahead as a cost cutting measure was the beginning of a slippery slope... and now we're sliding downhill quite fast... others have already commented about the lack of foresight, consultation and concern and the additional burden this decision will impose on children already severely impacted by change...<BR/><BR/>So, what to do? I think its time for the community to get together and do the Gandhi thing and refuse to accept these new measures... refuse to co-operate... passive resistance... agree as a community to get our kids to school enmasse for 9 or 9.30am start times... see what effect that will have...the District might then use that strategy as a justification for doing away with busing altogether, but that's another argument for another day...<BR/><BR/>What is this community going to do... just roll over and let it happen or draw a line in the sand and take a stand?Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69770630708230169192009-02-18T14:26:00.000-08:002009-02-18T14:26:00.000-08:00Speaking as one of the experienced activists, let ...Speaking as one of the experienced activists, let me tell you that these start times do NOT have to be approved by the Board. Start times are an administrative and operational decision rather than a policy decision, so the Board will not become involved in the discussion.<BR/><BR/>The District can move forward with this bell schedule - or any other bell schedule they choose - without any Board approval required. The report to the Board (and through them, the public) was simply a courtesy.<BR/><BR/>The Board will not be voting on this. You can write to them about it, you can also write to the folks in Transportation, to Bob Vaughan, to the school prinicpals, or to the local media. I don't know if any of it will do you any good at all.<BR/><BR/>And that brings us to an important realization: if the Board isn't involved, then all pretense of community engagement is right out the window. For that matter, all pretense of consideration for the public's interest is right out the window as well. There is no point in the District decision-making process that anyone - ANYONE - ever asks or considers what the students or families want or need. No one in the District (except the Board) are accountable to the public so no one in the District (except maybe the Board - maybe not) gives a moldy slice about the public's perspective.<BR/><BR/>This goes to highlight how critically important it is for the Board to vigorously advocate for the public perspective and how horribly bad things can go if (or, rather, when) they do not.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26371750862432926332009-02-18T13:21:00.000-08:002009-02-18T13:21:00.000-08:00Isn't this a thread to discuss impact of proposed ...Isn't this a thread to discuss impact of proposed earlier start times/end times? I'm looking for feedback on how parents in the affected schools feel about this: advice on process and if possible, how we should approach getting "them" to drop this proposal, at least for the elementary-only schools (Lowell, TM, and ?) that already have long bus rides. I believe "them" is "The District", and that the proposal needs to be voted on by the Board, but that's all I've figured out so far.WE've been told to email Tom Bishop (Transp Dir) and Bob Vaughn (APP) but that's it. All this philosophical discussion about busing is interesting, but rt now impacted parents are frantically trying to figure out how to deal with yet another huge change as proposed by Transportation. We have no sense of the timeline except for close of Open Enrollment. Y'all are the experienced activists - any thoughts on this or should we/I start a new thread?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55537202391831498222009-02-18T09:51:00.000-08:002009-02-18T09:51:00.000-08:00I hate to break it to Josh but access is already d...I hate to break it to Josh but access is already denied to the "good" schools. The schools that are widely perceived as good have more students that live in their reference area than can be handled. There is no amount of bussing that is going to create any more access to the Bryant's and McGilvra's. <BR/><BR/>As long as distance is the tiebreaker, Bussing does NOT equal access. Bussing does create access the case of alt schools that use a lottery system. <BR/><BR/>So unless the entire district went to a pure lottery system, access is still determined by distance.north seattle momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16398949285827606629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91433613943409780132009-02-18T09:42:00.000-08:002009-02-18T09:42:00.000-08:00I've heard there are big disparities in West Seatt...I've heard there are big disparities in West Seattle too.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44145322998710743202009-02-18T08:48:00.000-08:002009-02-18T08:48:00.000-08:00I don't know about disparities in schools as a who...I don't know about disparities in schools as a whole, but when I was touring kindergartens ten years ago, there were definitely huge disparities in the quality of kindergarten classes in the Northwest cluster. I'm not going to bother giving details, because I think things have changed a whole lot. It's quite possible the disparities are less now.<BR/><BR/>Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-43377224597232058112009-02-18T07:46:00.000-08:002009-02-18T07:46:00.000-08:00ARgh it's early. In my last paragraph I said "In t...ARgh it's early. In my last paragraph I said "In the other clusters I really see huge disparity between schools and feel like it all boils down to personal preference" <BR/><BR/>What I meant to say is....In the other clusters I really do not see a huge disparity between schools and feel like it all boils down to personal preferenceanonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-64794871341136878552009-02-18T07:42:00.000-08:002009-02-18T07:42:00.000-08:00Hi Josh, in my earlier post I was speaking to Sahi...Hi Josh, in my earlier post I was speaking to Sahila's thought that busing de-segregating our city, which I disagree with. Now I'll try to switch perspectives and speak about your concern: the discrepencies between schools.<BR/><BR/>I acknowledge that there is a HUGE discrepancy between quality of schools and academic performance between clusters, but I don't think it exists so much between schools within a particular cluster. <BR/><BR/>The current transportation plan only provides busing for a child within his/her own cluster so (for transportation purposes) you have to look at the discrepancies between schools only within that cluster.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Are there large discrepencies in academic performance or quality of schools within the N cluster? NE clster? NW cluster? SW cluster? QA/Magnolia cluster? <BR/><BR/>I don't think so, but I could be wrong...anybody with personal experience please share.<BR/><BR/>I do believe there is some discrepency in the performance and quality between SE cluster schools, but not a tremendous amount.<BR/><BR/>The only cluster that I really see huge discrepencies between schools in is the Central Cluster which houses some of the districts top performning schools and at the same time houses some of the district most struggling schools. <BR/><BR/>So, if I am correct in that there is not being much disparity between schools within a cluster shouldn't we discontinue cluster wide transportation? Perhaps with an exception for the Central cluster, and maybe even for the SE cluster? <BR/><BR/>In the other clusters I really see huge disparity between schools and feel like it all boils down to personal preference. I know it does on my block....Johnny like Laurelhurst better than John Rogers.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28056037067595421892009-02-17T23:35:00.000-08:002009-02-17T23:35:00.000-08:00adhoc, I hear you, and I don't want to accuse anyo...adhoc, I hear you, and I don't want to accuse anyone of being racist.<BR/><BR/>But -- and you knew there was a "but" coming, right? --<BR/><BR/>It's one thing to say that people should have to accept their reference school or schlep their kids themselves when one's reference schools are Bryant, Laurelhurst, View Ridge, and the alternative offering: Thornton Creek. It's an -- pardon the phrase, but it's accurate -- embarrassment of riches.<BR/><BR/>If we're not going to provide transportation, let's cut out the charade: you gotta go to your neighborhood school. End of story. Otherwise, we're allowing people with money, with time, with transportation, to cherry-pick the system, leaving those without that flexibility to suffer the crappy schools. And that is a morally reprehensible approach, in my view.<BR/><BR/>So long as there are blatant differences in quality between schools it is unreasonable to deny access; denying free transportation IS denying access. It's as simple as that. I want to reiterate that I'm not saying anyone here is a racist - but maybe there is a degree of classism going on? I know when my kids miss the bus I can jump in the car and take them, but how many parents have that luxury?<BR/><BR/>Now, what this has to do with new start times, I don't really know; surely busing is an incendiary issue, and shouldn't be tagged onto a thread of only tangential relevance. My apologies for carrying it this far.Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11799387790768750762009-02-17T14:44:00.001-08:002009-02-17T14:44:00.001-08:00... or when your closest school is already full. ...... or when your closest school is already full. Then your child is busing to another choice in the cluster.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16018489515216361843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-288528831615761172009-02-17T14:44:00.000-08:002009-02-17T14:44:00.000-08:00I'm not even really saying that more kids should g...I'm not even really saying that more kids should go to their neighborhood school. I beleive in choice and I understand first hand why a family would choose a school other than their neighborhood school. I have done exactly this for both of my children.<BR/><BR/>I'm certainly not saying that you should go to Madrona if it is your reference school, I'm just saying that if you choose to go to Montlake, and it is not your reference school, then you should be responsible for your child's transportation.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-534701691702383472009-02-17T14:33:00.000-08:002009-02-17T14:33:00.000-08:00I don't necessarily agree with Ad Hoc, but...I thi...I don't necessarily agree with Ad Hoc, but...<BR/>I think she's saying that if more kids went to their reference school rather than other nearby schools, that more of them could walk to school, or there would be a single bus for that school. This might mean less carbon footprint. It would likely mean that less of the carbon was paid for by taxpayers, and more paid for by families.<BR/><BR/>That sounds great if your choices are the largely equivalent John Rodger or Laurenhurst, and not nearly so good if they are the very different Madrona and Montlake.TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80308738155639916142009-02-17T14:32:00.000-08:002009-02-17T14:32:00.000-08:00The funny thing is that only 2 of the 7 kids on ou...The funny thing is that only 2 of the 7 kids on our block actually ride the bus, though the buses stop at our corner every single day. The commute is so long (an hour each way for my son) that 5 of us deem it unreasonable and don't use the bus anyway.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21500714163058568242009-02-17T14:24:00.000-08:002009-02-17T14:24:00.000-08:00I'm a taxpayer too and don't mind paying for schoo...I'm a taxpayer too and don't mind paying for school buses. Imagine the added traffic if buses disappear and parents all drive. Our area is prone to air inversions and smog, too. I'll gladly tolerate a few extra yellow buses any day if it keeps cars off the road during rush hour.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16018489515216361843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27295787347002152402009-02-17T13:46:00.000-08:002009-02-17T13:46:00.000-08:00Sahila you are right "busing started as an attempt...Sahila you are right "busing started as an attempt to deal with the problem of segregation". The questions to ask ourselves are:<BR/>Is busing warranted today? Does busing effectively deal with segregation today? <BR/><BR/>Consider my situation. I live on a block that has 7 kids that attend 5 different public schools. Five buses stop on my corner. All of the children are white, with the exception of our son who is bi-racial. All of us have the same reference school, John Rogers. Even though John Rogers is a good school by all measures, not one of the 7 families on our block go there. Instead they go to Laurelhurst, View Ridge, Wedgewood, Sacajewea and Bryant. And they don't go to these schools because they offer any special or unique program or philosophy. They go to these schools because they are perceived to be "better" as they are more affluent and their test scores are slightly higher. Should the tax payers foot the bill for this? It certainly is not elimiating segregation, or increasing diversity. In fact an argument could be made for the opposite. Busing is increasing segregation and decreasing diversity in this case.<BR/><BR/>Now lets look specifically at Bryant, my sons school. It is over crowded, and if you don't live in the reference area of the school you can't get in. There are no buses arriving at Bryant from far away areas carrying minority or low income children. None. There are no buses full of these students because A) there is no space for them and B) the current transportation policy does not allow for transportation outside of ones cluster except to go to a multi cluster draw school like the alts or APP. <BR/><BR/>Transportation has made a few exceptions over the years as they did in the case of busing south end kids up to Hamilton. It served their prpose which was to fill the building. However, now that APP is moving in to Hamilton, watch how fast the south end kids are moved out. This of course tells you that de-segregation and diversity was not the goal of the busing, but rather the goal was to fill the seats in the seats in the building.<BR/><BR/>As far as I can tell, busing may have come about to help de-segregate our city, but it is not working for this purpose today. So should it continue? Should we continue to pay to transport the 7 kids on my block all over our cluster? Personally, I don't think so. But I do think we should continue busing to multi cluster draw schools as it does work to diversitfy these programs and all kids should have access to them. And busing should be provided to unique one of a kind programs like APP, Spectrum, etc. But that's about it. I don't think tax payers should have to foot the bill because Johnny would rather go to Laurelhurst than John Rogers.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19623478340809035812009-02-17T13:23:00.000-08:002009-02-17T13:23:00.000-08:00In response to Jason - from the opposite perspecti...In response to Jason - from the opposite perspective, we generally rule out M-Thurs evening events at Lowell because I cannot get my kids from after-school and get back to Lowell in time to make it worthwhile, (especially if I need to feed them) given that we need to leave Lowell no later than 7:30 in order to get kids in bed by 8:30. But if I were able to leave work early because I got there an hour earlier, it might be possible. Basically, no matter how you cut it, it's really hard to be active in your school if you work from 8-5, or 9-6.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12392698922583204512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59192995120637777512009-02-17T13:11:00.000-08:002009-02-17T13:11:00.000-08:00I have been doing more thinking on this proposed s...I have been doing more thinking on this proposed start time. It would prevent our family from participating in any evening events at our school, Lowell. Our child would need to be in bed by 7:30 to make this work, so no evening events for us.<BR/><BR/>Lowell has some great evening events, with lots of families participating. An early bedtime for the younger children would prevent many from participating.<BR/><BR/>I also agree with Sonicgal1 - this change would greatly diminish our nightly family time.jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15508195340087278296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44667278679827524282009-02-17T12:47:00.000-08:002009-02-17T12:47:00.000-08:00As I said on Harium's blog, an 8am start time is p...As I said on Harium's blog, an 8am start time is pretty much a deal breaker for my family. Lowell and T. Marshall's general ed programs will be off our list. And, the list of affected schools could change. It could change after open enrollment. Some K8 schools are on the list, will TOPS or Orca be added? Not safe to pick those. It's more logical to have the neighborhood elementaries have the earlier start time, so maybe it will be switched after open enrollment? Who knows. Not safe to pick those either. Will the chaos never end?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.com