tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post2310158915910714082..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Bell Times - Never MindMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58969855187449201572015-06-14T17:13:34.611-07:002015-06-14T17:13:34.611-07:00Director McLaren forwarded to me a "Friday Me...Director McLaren forwarded to me a "Friday Memo" dated May 15, 2015 from Theresa Hale to the school board. It contains an attachment that is the data or analysis the staff prepared regarding the cost estimate for going from three tier to two tier. I think it would be good if those who have time and energy reviewed it and commented on whether it seems accurate or not. I don't know how to attach things here though.<br /><br />-- Supporter of Two TiersAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59309486373676278192015-06-12T15:34:28.844-07:002015-06-12T15:34:28.844-07:00As a member of the task force I just want to let p...As a member of the task force I just want to let people know that the EIS was planned into the timeline for the bell time analysis work, going back before the board voted to conduct this analysis in July 2014. This will take time and money by the district to complete, but shouldn't derail the whole process. We actually have bigger fish to fry in terms of keeping the pressure on Nyland to make a positive recommendation for later middle and high school starts to the board. That means not giving up on the 2 tier option by continuing to question the estimate that it will cost an additional $11 million to accomplish.Jatul, start school later Seattlenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36940304122245391942015-06-12T13:40:12.663-07:002015-06-12T13:40:12.663-07:00Bus Lover - note I said Logistics - which isn'...Bus Lover - note I said Logistics - which isn't the same as the Transportation Manager - in the hierarchy Logistics manager is supervisor of Transportation manager. The people doing route planning etc are ALL from the world of transportation - just not the management level people. So there is always a disconnect between front line understanding and management understanding - that's not uncommon in any operation - and it leads to miscommunication, etc etc etc. Surprised? didn't think so.<br /><br />intheknow <br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74762066932849073152015-06-12T13:15:05.380-07:002015-06-12T13:15:05.380-07:00You are KIDDING me that "no one in manager ro...You are KIDDING me that "no one in manager role in SPS logistics has a background in transportation." KIDDING ME??? <br /><br />(Oh, why am I not surprised.). <br /><br />There are maybe 20 people at JBLM and Camp Murray alone who could whip this ... and they're not crazy high paid consultants. There are reserve units in the area that are all transportation-focused - this is what their officers and senior enlisted specialize in, both in the military and often in civilian life, because ... transferable skills! And then there's industry - Why does SPS not recruit from the world's best logistics agency ever, the US Military, for Transpo? It's a no brainer.<br /><br />And the cynic in me notes that a lot of the bus cost statistics are skewed by including the cost and number of buses from the old choice assignment plan, and from the students who were still being bused in smaller numbers to schools under the choice plan. The last group of kids who were assigned or chose schools under that plan are leaving 5th grade this year - now elem. is in pure neighborhood availability mode, or option schools. So using say the last 5 years of data is skewed b/c those numbers reflect buses that just shouldn't be going in the future, b/c kids don't get an involuntary assignment to a farther school, like they used to under choice. <br /><br /> <br />signed: bus lover<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65646015162804515272015-06-12T11:56:29.345-07:002015-06-12T11:56:29.345-07:00Yes. the frontline people who work in transportati...Yes. the frontline people who work in transportation are actually very fine people who work hard under less then stellar leadership. There are changes on that front happening right now - only time will tell if it's for better or worse. Its also good to remember that buses have many uses - not just to/from school - field trips, sports related activities - and both McKenny Vento and SPED transports also play a complicating factor. Toss in snow routes too on occasion. To date, no one who has been in the manager role related to SPS logistics has a background in transportation. That remains true now. Those kind of leadership vacuums are a huge issue with all of SPS. <br /><br />intheknow Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40202787632646709862015-06-12T11:27:25.261-07:002015-06-12T11:27:25.261-07:00Po3,
Oops - I didn't understand your suggesti...Po3,<br /><br />Oops - I didn't understand your suggestion. That does make sense!Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49400147171179711732015-06-12T11:08:31.197-07:002015-06-12T11:08:31.197-07:00Absolutamente, Lynn.Absolutamente, Lynn.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53224846908268546942015-06-12T10:52:19.290-07:002015-06-12T10:52:19.290-07:00"so middle and high schools sharing busses wo..."so middle and high schools sharing busses wouldn't work."<br /><br />Sure it would. Drop MS off at 8:45 or a 9am start, HS off at 9 for a 9:15 start, for example.<br />Just need to compromise a bit on "late" start time.<br /><br />Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74337597120067363362015-06-12T10:41:00.448-07:002015-06-12T10:41:00.448-07:00Elementary schools don't all start at the same...Elementary schools don't all start at the same time - there are both 8:40 and 9:40 start times. I think the idea is to get both middle and high schools starting later - so middle and high schools sharing busses wouldn't work.<br /><br />If we have to choose the best way to use our transportation dollars, which is more valuable - later secondary school start times or region-wide transportation to option schools? If we're looking for other ways to cut costs to make this work, I suggest not approving the Superintendent's start of school project and using that money for transportation. If the professionals we already employ can't figure out how to make the enrollment/hiring/transportation process work, why not replace them rather than pay consultants to train them?Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80556004132121698842015-06-12T10:09:15.720-07:002015-06-12T10:09:15.720-07:00Back in the day when we were on a "Tier 2&quo...Back in the day when we were on a "Tier 2" transportation schedule schools shared buses by staggering bell times. So for example, Coe and Hay; Blaine and Lawton were able to share buses. When they when to Tier 3 each school now needed their own set of buses so that all elementary schools could start at the same time. I always wondered how many more buses that put into circulation.<br /><br />What if we had schools share buses again? <br />What if we took that a step further and had MS and HS share buses. Roosevelt/Eckstein, Ballard/Whitman, Meany/(when reopened)GHS? <br /><br />Do we really need every school to start at the same time? Couldn't we first look at pairing schools up and set those bell times calling that Tier 1 and then look at stand-alone schools making them Tier 2?Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66411926961031367092015-06-12T09:02:29.522-07:002015-06-12T09:02:29.522-07:00"Takes more buses" is the accepted wisdo..."Takes more buses" is the accepted wisdom, but I have yet to see actual proof that it is very many more actual buses. <br /><br />The numbers are really, really contradictory - and there are lots of numbers. Which makes them all rather suspect. <br /><br />I'd love to see an outside prof'l entity (NOT a consultant, but an actual logistics entity that has skill in this particular type of field) - first audit and then design the system. <br /><br />I think the SPS bus route people have, like most of the other depts. with good people and good intentions, lost their way in the thicket of contradictory higher directives, bad management, low morale, keep-your-head-down trenches. I suspect that there are vast improvements that could be made, but that the people who are living the dept every day can't make them b/c of the usual problems. <br /><br />It's not rocket science - it's route planning. Military people do this every freaking day. Truck logistics people do this every day. Our nation moves how many people and how much freight to where? How often? It's doable, but the bell times and planning needs to be done in conjunction with the bus route standards - and those standards need to fit different parts of the city differently, not one size fits all - <br /><br />But that would take will.<br /><br />Signed: bus lover Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39262255551269147812015-06-12T08:59:25.516-07:002015-06-12T08:59:25.516-07:00I can only say - lucky Sealth, Center and Hale. S...I can only say - lucky Sealth, Center and Hale. Sealth gets a later start because of issues around co-joining with Denny. Center, I can't remember but I think it is location-based. And Hale's started so long ago, I don't even remember. <br /><br />So is giving them a later start costing more money or is it just the addition of ALL the high schools?Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2231093619984455912015-06-12T08:44:03.499-07:002015-06-12T08:44:03.499-07:00Lynn is correct - the issue for SPS is the added c...Lynn is correct - the issue for SPS is the added cost of additional buses. Returning to something resembling 2 tiers takes more buses and more than likely an additional bus vendor, as the current one could not handle that kind of increase. Is that a logical reason to not do something that helps kids? Probably not. But then when is SPS ever truly logical? ;o)<br /><br />reader47Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6466738131747486612015-06-12T06:26:09.242-07:002015-06-12T06:26:09.242-07:00There are costs associated with our current start-...There are costs associated with our current start-times too. Higher numbers of tardies & absences make extra work for staff & lower test scores. Increased physical & mental health illness impacts add 504's, counseling, substance-abuse intervention & nursing. Increased discipline, violence & crime cost schools & neighborhoods. We spend money trying to improve success rates in schools from remedial classes to tutoring to repeat testing, that would be lessened with later start-times for secondary schools. It may not cost the schools, but with earlier start-times there are increased teen driver accident rates which does cost the rest of us. Evidently SPS staff is not interested in any of those outcomes.<br /><br />-Need sleepAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15032503431737906922015-06-11T22:17:22.587-07:002015-06-11T22:17:22.587-07:00There is still hope for belltimes...
At the Tas...There is still hope for belltimes... <br /><br />At the Task Force meeting today, they said the EIS was standard for any large change. It was indeed on our timeline from the beginning; originally scheduled in October 2014, but legal advised them to wait to do it until after community meetings. <br /><br />The list of options is general and we are not locked into these three; they are a range for the EIS and can be modified. The EIS should be done by early to mid-October 2015, depending on the comments that are received.<br /><br />The Task Force voted on which of the three options presented to the community to recommend- and while there are members who did not make it there today and will be submitting later- the vote so far is unanimous for Modified Flip. I think there will be several minority reports for Two Tiers, and for Modified Flip with K-8s in Tier 2- I know I'll be writing one of those.<br />ProSleep Momnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40319666664025808612015-06-11T22:03:42.872-07:002015-06-11T22:03:42.872-07:00Po3,
The roadblock to changing high school times ...Po3,<br /><br />The roadblock to changing high school times is cost. Our current schedule allows most buses to make a drop before 7:50 and then drive another am route to a second or third tier school. If we moved all the high schools later, we'd have to pay our transportation vendor another $50 to $60K for each additional bus we'd need. That's a lot of money.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3134961879558315952015-06-11T21:06:39.540-07:002015-06-11T21:06:39.540-07:00@Helen
Many schools already start at 9:30, includ...@Helen<br /><br />Many schools already start at 9:30, including my daughter's elementary, and yes its late.<br /><br />I'd love a switch to an earlier slot for elementary students!WallyMomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76132740597660940472015-06-11T17:31:40.725-07:002015-06-11T17:31:40.725-07:00@mirmac1: That is a good point.
I am wondering i...@mirmac1: That is a good point. <br /><br />I am wondering if there is pushback from the elementary schools' staff and faculty about a bell times changes. I wonder if they might not be keen on having their work day start earlier after years at a later start. Then again, that may be just my particular bias--I am not an earlybird!<br /><br />North End ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13116186550145437252015-06-11T17:21:33.265-07:002015-06-11T17:21:33.265-07:00May be a dumb question but does Metro or other ent...May be a dumb question but does Metro or other entities (Amazon, Microsoft) do EIS' when they change bus schedules? If so I want to comment!mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81725396978378933682015-06-11T16:19:43.335-07:002015-06-11T16:19:43.335-07:00Westside -
We all want what you have so all our ...Westside - <br /><br />We all want what you have so all our children benefit from the late start, not just students attending a couple of high schools.<br /><br />If Sealth and Hale can have the late start, why can't RHS, GHS, BHS etc. have a late start? What's the roadblock to changing the HS times?Po3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28240673416826902382015-06-11T14:05:24.067-07:002015-06-11T14:05:24.067-07:00This is infuriating. Thank you for all your hard w...This is infuriating. Thank you for all your hard work so far, Pro-sleep mom. Seen it, I am sure you are right, but then I am bothered that I don't know who these people on staff are. Who are the people who are holding this up? Why can't we talk to them about it? Why does it have to be black box? I would really like to hear their response to the science, and to have someone answer my questions about how they can justify sacrificing so many children's educations like this.<br /><br />-sleeperAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68478996951019464542015-06-11T12:22:46.034-07:002015-06-11T12:22:46.034-07:00Chief Sealth times can stay as they are. I'm c...Chief Sealth times can stay as they are. I'm convinced that one of the reasons my daughter is earning As is her 8:40 am start. She can stay up late, complete school work, and still get enough sleep to get to school on time with a minimum of stress. Why offer two different start times? Wouldn't this cost - more - money? <br /><br />WestsideAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67381658793367967542015-06-11T11:49:45.705-07:002015-06-11T11:49:45.705-07:00@ dw: The problem is time money and focus. The sta...@ dw: The problem is time money and focus. The staff wants to use all three on other things. We can disagree, but that's the bottom line and there are voices not on this blog that agree with their perspective, not the voices on this blog. Not saying staff is right. Just that there is no sense wasting time wondering 'why' when the 'why' is straightforward. Can't beat this horse into submission, so horse is haltingly moving forward. But not in a way that will merit a win for the backers. <br /><br />Seen ItAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48407349142933127762015-06-11T11:42:44.288-07:002015-06-11T11:42:44.288-07:00Patrick said: This is a good idea, but I don't...Patrick said: <i>This is a good idea, but I don't think Nyland would care. That would be a termination without cause, so he gets to collect severance.</i><br /><br />Perhaps, but are we 100% sure this would be without cause? What if the investigative powers found that the request for the EIS came from Nyland himself? Surely that might be considered with cause, no? It's really hard to know how things play out in a legal battle, but frankly he would come out looking so ugly if it were true, I'm not sure how hard people would have to push to get him out the door. This is all wild speculation, of course. But what's not speculation is that this feels like insubordination.<br /><br />A critical question that needs to be answered is: who requested the EIS? The city? The state? Or was it something that was initiated by someone at SPS? If the latter, then I absolutely think there would be causal grounds for firing and/or contract termination. Why? Because it's like <i>asking</i> the IRS to audit your company for no reason. It's sabotaging your own goals. Or in this case, sabotaging the Board and the public's goals.<br /><br />I'm quite sure the answer to this question is not something we can trust that will be given freely, it will necessarily need to be dug out via PRR.<br /><br />Another critical question that no one seems to have the answer to, is simply: WHY?! Why is staff opposed to something like this that makes perfect sense, and is overwhelmingly preferred by parents, teachers and students? What on earth is the problem?!dwnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85260222501927822152015-06-11T11:00:57.365-07:002015-06-11T11:00:57.365-07:00As a parent in a K-8 middle school I cannot suppor...As a parent in a K-8 middle school I cannot support the bell time change because the district offered us no cogent option. It didn't offer us an option at all. K-8s would apparently fill in all the inconvenient time slots. Why would we want to be treated, as usual, as a nose-held afterthought by district staff? This isn't the fault of the community backing the time slots, as they recommended a two tier system in tandem with the flip of times. I suppose K-8s could get behind that plan and live with either tier. But not the uncertainty of placement beyond getting a bad outcome that is the current offer within the 3-tier system insisted upon by the district. It stinks. <br /><br /><br />Signed<br />K-8 noAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com