tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post2945711684213373161..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Carol Burton wants her job backMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2671348236760629772016-04-13T09:13:07.104-07:002016-04-13T09:13:07.104-07:00Thanks, Paul. I believe that is the central issue...Thanks, Paul. I believe that is the central issue for the district - they can't afford to have something else happen and parents sue the district for keeping a teacher that they knew didn't always follow rules. <br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70083534282880798612016-04-13T08:37:09.058-07:002016-04-13T08:37:09.058-07:00The KING5 TV story has clips of Nyland's testi...The <a href="http://www.king5.com/news/local/superintendent-testifies-over-firing-of-garfield-choir-teacher/121699809" rel="nofollow">KING5 TV story</a> has clips of Nyland's testimony, explaining that Carol Burton presents too much of a liability to the district to be rehired.<br /><br />--PaulAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72049416821126141872016-04-11T20:27:10.270-07:002016-04-11T20:27:10.270-07:00NP, I'm not pressuring anyone. I offered an op...NP, I'm not pressuring anyone. I offered an opinion. I have no idea who the girls are or their parents and would never tell anyone what to do. I offered a way forward.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1658215463848326612016-04-11T07:35:14.750-07:002016-04-11T07:35:14.750-07:00Why exactly should the district have to pay for th...Why exactly should the district have to pay for the services of two teachers because one (Ms. Burton) is incapable of following really basic rules? Why should children who were subject to sexual harassment and sexual assult be asked to waive claims by the district? And as taxpayers, why should be sitting back waiting to pay the HUGE judgement or settlement the next time she breaks the rules (she doesn't have to be on a field trip to be in charge of the well being of kids, as a former band kid, I can tell you that a lot of inappropriate things happened in the band room when the adults weren't supervising well) and students are harmed? Because seriously, imagine the attorney for those children's families identifing exactly how the district was on notice that Ms. Burton has poor judgement and supervision skills? No way, no how. Ms. Burton should be done and Mr. Howard should be on probation, if not under investigation on the lead up to his termination.<br /><br />-SWWS Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36294529214568065792016-04-10T18:48:47.528-07:002016-04-10T18:48:47.528-07:00Now on this one I can see it both ways. As a music...Now on this one I can see it both ways. As a musician, the conductor is an integral part of a performance, and I couldn't imagine, say, traveling to a competition and not being conducted by the usual person. On field trips that are just for fun, that's a horse of a different color (though honestly I don't know if choruses are always actively conducted, to be honest). But another issue would be the respect of the students and parent chaperones. Clearly a culture of disregarding the rules has been going on for some time. They may want Burton back, but if she says "okay guys, we're going to follow every rule to the letter and I mean it this time" will they all really listen?<br /><br />-New MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73722806057320358472016-04-10T12:12:32.882-07:002016-04-10T12:12:32.882-07:00My opinion is that she should be rehired and on fi...My opinion is that she should be rehired and on field trips there should be a second teacher as well as chaperones who follow rules. It is the students who enrich their choir experience by going on trips and singing with mass choirs that are conducted or adjudicated by nationally known choral conductors. It is the students who suffer when we punish her with no trips. <br />GHSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87492654422516266652016-04-10T09:57:38.270-07:002016-04-10T09:57:38.270-07:00Sorry, I meant "...for this incident" no...Sorry, I meant "...for this incident" not "on its instance." -NPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89765641857305405932016-04-10T08:53:06.314-07:002016-04-10T08:53:06.314-07:00@ Melissa - I am deeply concerned by your post abo...@ Melissa - I am deeply concerned by your post above where you write -"if the parents of the girls who were allegedly molested signed off that they will not sue the district, then the district is off the hook on its instance." Why should the girls or their parents be pressured by you or anyone else to give up their legal rights? You have put them in a terrible position of being pressured by peers, the GHs administration and others. Your comment discourages kids from coming forward with their concerns after they are assaulted. - NPAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11690067779135009812016-04-10T01:25:25.152-07:002016-04-10T01:25:25.152-07:00I hope to have a thread with documentation provide...I hope to have a thread with documentation provided by parents and students who support Ms. Burton.<br /><br />My take is this:<br /><br />- Ms. Burton seems to have created a very successful music program that both parents and students support and enjoy. Because of that, I perceive that like many music/athletic directors, she has some latitude in what she does on school-sponsored trips (whether that's okay is another thing.)<br /><br />- But Ms. Burton had some serious lapses of judgement on this trip that cannot be overlooked. That there was more than one is troubling.<br />No one should have been drinking especially not Ms. Burton. <br /><br />As to hotel room issue, look, these kids are not on vacation - they are on a school trip. Big difference. Are their opportunities for them to relax and socialize? Sure, on the plane/train/car, in the lobby, at meals, at the venue, etc. There are more reasons to keep kids in their assigned rooms at assigned curfew times than sex/gender issues. You don't need keys to every room to do a bed check. You need a couple of sharp chaperones.<br /><br />It is not evident to me that Ms. Burton ever took her concerns about the gender issues and overnight trips to her principal, ex director, superintendent or school board. If they are so pressing, then she should work to change that policy, not decide it doesn't apply to her students.<br /><br />But here's my middle ground - don't dismiss her. She has proven to be a good teacher and music leader. Just don't allow her on field trips. Some other teacher can do that. I know, "she knows the program,the students, etc. to which I say, does she want to keep her job or not? There has to be some kind of protection for the district and its liability for kids on a trip. Burton seems to be a liability they don't need. <br /><br />If the parents of the girls who were allegedly molested signed off that they will not sue the district, then the district is off the hook for this incident.<br /><br />Keeping Ms. Burton as a fine teacher but not allowing that liablity on field trips to happen again would seem to be the way to go and everyone wins something.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55940605272134916812016-04-09T20:54:42.738-07:002016-04-09T20:54:42.738-07:00Comparing the failures of a school, Principal and ...Comparing the failures of a school, Principal and district to investigate the allegations of potential rape and molestation is well akin to the Catholic Church and irony that they are both institutions that offer both good and service to the community while the acts of some do wide damage and destruction that is hard to overcome.<br /><br />So when the church realized that this was a larger problem they too are trying to reconcile with their past and move into the future. And while Garfield had just had the year prior a massive scandal that had ended up in allegations of rape yet no charges were filed, it prompted the district to ensure that all future field trips had tighter policies to hope and believe that this may not happen again.<br /><br />And while we all think that the Nature Bridge was an abhorrent singular event, this particular school of all particular schools has had a series of events, some in the distant past some less so but this particular school has been under a microscope. And unlike the problems at Broadview Thompson or that of Whitman were horrendous it has been noted that no other significant problems of that level have ever occurred again. <br /><br />And we know that there are many schools in Seattle that have had numerous indiscretions and problems.. the drugie Teacher at the Interagency, the sexting kids this year at Madison and I am sure there are more.. but again no school has experienced more attention than that of Garfield.<br /><br />So if I was teaching there and planning a field trip to the Seattle Center I would follow the protocol to the letter and add a few more requirements and restrictions to ensure not only the safety of the students by my own as well given again the inconsistencies of the district when it comes to following their own procedures. The irony is not lost so I would make it as challenging as possible to find fault with anything I did short of hiring armed guards to protect kids from any possible mishap.<br /><br />This boy harmed a girl and this is the problem. Given the lax attitude about that and that the boy professed to be gay the teacher saw no potential harm. Well I don't care if he is Caitlyn Jenner I would say here is the deal "Cait" you are not allowed to share with a girl until you fully become one or if the field trip is in North Carolina, never.. but otherwise this is the deal here. I don't agree, don't like it bu that is what rules are.<br /><br />As for her having a drink, again that is what the rules say. I know that we are not saying if she had not been slapping down a wine this would not have happened but the reality is that is the rules, so live without the booze for the three days. The booze had nothing to do with the boys behavior or the situation it was just another rule broken. <br /><br />These were the rules put in place at the time, these are the ones you agree and sign a contract to when you agree to work in the public schools. I am sure there are many absurd rules that many don't agree, find useful or are discriminatory but until you have a valid reason to demonstrate why they need to be changed, you put up or you shut up <br /><br />Should Ms. Burton be fired? I don't know the woman, don't have a dog in this race but I agree that policy was violated and that this could have been worse. Thankfully it wasn't. I do think that the district cold have relocated her in the same fashion they did to Greenfield, put her in an elementary school or middle school, allow no field trips and then after a time she could reapply for her job or for a similar one at a high school or elsewhere without all the public drama and stain on her resume. She should not be vilified for this and that is just another layer of tragedy that resulted. <br />- Nosy Parker Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87724857439574857882016-04-09T16:36:02.892-07:002016-04-09T16:36:02.892-07:00Westside, are you saying that punishing all indisc...Westside, are you saying that punishing all indiscretions should be on hold until the old messes are cleaned up? <br /><br />-New MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24291358331782422072016-04-09T12:42:15.067-07:002016-04-09T12:42:15.067-07:00Nosy Parker "...there have been some allegati...Nosy Parker "...there have been some allegations, some investigations but nowhere near the level and scope that GHS seems to have annually." <br /><br />Just to give you a sense of scale of the bad things inside SPS, not limited to GHS:<br /><br />http://saveseattleschools.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-clarity-in-what-did-or-didnt.html<br /><br />Terri Skjei is still the principal of View Ridge. Why did she go from Broadview-Thomson to plum assignment at well-regarded school? Often times, a problem principal is relegated to a desk. Not in this case. <br /><br />A teacher who admits mistakes is easier to trust than a principal who deflects blame by ignoring and forgetting. I understand that Larry Nyland can't retroactively punish wrong doers before his tenure, but when there are current SPS principals who've made a career of ignoring and forgetting, I question why a teacher gets the axe while they remain in place. <br /><br />The problem is greater than one teacher and one field trip. <br /><br />Westside<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85215999571322313592016-04-09T06:07:32.437-07:002016-04-09T06:07:32.437-07:00I agreed. But you need a name. RePosting for:
An...I agreed. But you need a name. RePosting for:<br /><br />Anonymous4/8/16, 5:15 PM<br /><br />Ms. Burton absolutely knew she was not supposed to drink, she absolutely knew the chaperones were not supposed to either, and she absolutely knew that boys and girls were not supposed to hang out in hotel rooms together. She was fully aware of all of those, and made conscious decisions, on multiple occasions, to ignore the policies she had already agreed to uphold. She gambled, and lost. It's unfortunate to lose a good teacher, but if you can't trust your employee to hold up their end of the bargain, you have to let them go.<br /><br />Parents entrust their children to teachers, and need to know that the district is going to hold teachers accountable for responsible behavior on field trips, and at all times. Whether or not parents like and trust this particular teacher is irrelevant. Allowing a teacher to decide to ignore the rules they don't agree with is bad policy all around, and a liability for the district in the event of future incidents.<br />-------<br /><br />-SWWS<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87707698522398681032016-04-08T17:15:21.767-07:002016-04-08T17:15:21.767-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13587328974809083642016-04-08T16:38:47.645-07:002016-04-08T16:38:47.645-07:00There's no doubt that there's a problem wi...There's no doubt that there's a problem with the culture of the district, as I think Charlie has pointed out numerous times before. And there might well be a problem with some of Garfield's culture (hazing is one that, in my experience, takes time and effort to stop - you basically have to get rid of all older kids and teachers who have been complicit). Many people made poor choices on that trip, to be sure. <br /><br />And one of the people who made poor choices is Ms. Burton. No matter how professional she may be, drinking with chaperones on a trip where you're meant to be responsible for children is not a professional choice. Period. Maybe Suzie and Bobby and Steve were also misbehaving and ought to be punished, but whether or not they were doesn't change whether Jane was misbehaving. If all the other parents were drinking and jumped off a bridge, that doesn't mean you should too. I can go on all day with this. <br /><br />Or imagine if the issue weren't clouded. If the only one drinking on that trip was the teacher. If everything else was handled correctly by the district. <br /><br />I'd still be okay with firing that teacher, because it's a dangerous, irresponsible decision and on an overnight trip with children the adults shouldn't be making dangerous, irresponsible choices. <br /><br />-New MomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27471072498822728682016-04-08T15:39:10.353-07:002016-04-08T15:39:10.353-07:00I am boggled by the rallying around a teacher that...I am boggled by the rallying around a teacher that admittedly consumed alcohol while supervising a field trip. She could be the best teacher ever, but she made bad decisions, in front of her students, breaking district policies and rules. And as previously pointed out, that gives the impression to students that following the rules is not necessary for "everyone".<br /><br />Why should her previous performance and/or likeability be taken into account if she broke rules/district policies that could put kids in jeopardy? While the district/Nyland definitely need to be held accountable for withholding important information on the male student, I agree with the firing of Ms. Burton 100%.<br /><br />--perplexed SPS momAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28118017282446486532016-04-08T15:17:56.288-07:002016-04-08T15:17:56.288-07:00I concur, but his SPS nickname is Teflon Ted for a...I concur, but his SPS nickname is Teflon Ted for a reason.BTDTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85452278379413336482016-04-08T11:57:40.779-07:002016-04-08T11:57:40.779-07:00Thank you BTDT I feel that the list is incomplete ...Thank you BTDT I feel that the list is incomplete somehow.<br /><br />There is a culture at Garfield that reflects the dynamics the two tier school with sports another layer within a layer. Recall the sports recruiting scandal with RBHS and later with Bellevue I believe. It goes on and on with Howard the central figure in many of these issues.<br /><br />I have a good friend who used to substitute teach in the district and the stories out of Garfield made my hair stand on end. What makes it have such a stellar reputation? The ability to bury the bones I guess.<br /><br />But a Teacher's "popularity" can be a double edged sword, someone liked, who is good a their job is often one with a target on their back. I think it was last year they had on the job postings the director of the music program.. there have been others who found themselves "retired" prematurely. The same friend said that the packed up this Teacher's room and she was told she would no longer be teaching health, another her business class so they had to either teach the classes they had not been doing for years or take retirement.<br /><br />Have some of the scandals happened in other schools? yes but to the depth and breadth they happen at GHS is fascinating. It should be a reality show.. The Real Teachers of Garfield<br /><br />- Nosy Parker Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12878249548024138492016-04-08T10:11:57.634-07:002016-04-08T10:11:57.634-07:00It's an interesting question. Why does Ted How...It's an interesting question. Why does Ted Howard still have his job?Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2608341746867117752016-04-08T08:20:59.464-07:002016-04-08T08:20:59.464-07:00Not to mention the GHS hazing debacle. That is a ...Not to mention the GHS hazing debacle. That is a unique to GHS "tradition".BTDTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13091762109653168042016-04-08T07:20:21.315-07:002016-04-08T07:20:21.315-07:00Judith Billings makes her living being a plaintiff...Judith Billings makes her living being a plaintiff's witness and working for the WEA. You can buy her opinion for any case you would like. GarfieldMom's "peace out, suckers" stance tells you loads about the entitlement culture of GHS. Since she brought it up, let's discuss the real history of GHS. Have other schools had the following history:<br />1. Principal leaves under shroud of controversy over his relationship with a student cheerleader, later marries her.<br />2. Teacher commits suicide on the eve of an investigation interview related to his sexual relationships with students (including sex acts on field trips) and his lack of supervision of students in field trips (too busy grooming them to supervise).<br />3. Student gets raped on an field trip in Africa, where she was left unsupervised with a stranger.<br />4. Fake leases, fake classes, and fake grades are created for star basketball players.<br />5. Teacher fired for going to a high school party and having oral sex with students.<br />6. Student gets raped on poorly supervised trip to Olympic National Forrest. Male student athlete vigorously defended by GHS admin while victim is allowed to be run through the mud.<br />7. Coaches are hired and fired based not on qualification, but the desires of patron former student/former professional athletes and the preferences of potential student athlete parents that are being recruited to GHS.<br />8. Knowing all of this and the problems that happened on her own past field trips, Burton chooses not to follow the rules.<br /><br />Is there a common theme? Yes. Teflon Ted should be held accountable to a greater degree than he has been. And the GHS community needs to stop viewing themselves as being above the rules. BTDTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44600672088096312352016-04-08T07:18:51.335-07:002016-04-08T07:18:51.335-07:00Here's another question that has been raised: ...Here's another question that has been raised: should the teacher's popularity or ease of replacement be a factor in determining punishment? <br /><br />Should the District have considered how hard it would be to replace Carol Burton before deciding to dismiss her or should the penalties be the same regardless of that consequence for the District?<br /><br />Should the District have considered how beloved Carol Burton is by students and families before deciding to dismiss her or should bother popular and unpopular teachers face the same punishments for the same offenses?<br /><br />At Cal Berkeley there is a scandal right now because tenured professors were punished much less harshly than other staff following sexual harassment complaints. Of all of the complaints that were found to have merit all of the staff who were not tenured professors were fired but none of the professors were. Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52076440495233995732016-04-08T01:03:48.229-07:002016-04-08T01:03:48.229-07:00I don't know what Garfield ever did to make pe...I don't know what Garfield ever did to make people think the district is the good guy for once. Seriously, people, why do so many of you seem to think you know what really goes on at Garfield? You don't even go here! (Points for getting that reference.)<br /><br />And why do people think they know enough to judge this teacher and this situation? Do you really think reading some news articles or an investigative report gives you a well-rounded picture of a situation? Can you really say you know who Carol Burton is, what kind of teacher and person she is, how valuable she is to the school, the dedication she has to teaching, what a difference she makes in students' lives, and whether she has exercised good professional judgment in her day-to-day work in the school for the past 15 years, when you've never met her, haven't spent even a minute in her classroom, and have not had a child in her classes? <br /><br />Every parent of a GHS choir student I know would absolutely send their child on a field trip with Ms. Burton again. Do you think we're all idiots, or do you think maybe we just know her a heck of a lot better than those outside of our school? Are we misguided, terrible parents, or are we just like you, only with a lot more information and personal experience to base our decisions on? Hundreds of parents, other teachers, students and former students, and other professionals have written letters in support of Burton. Maybe you think she's paying us?? I'm really scratching my head here. <br /><br />Everyone here should be a little less concerned with whether Garfield is a cesspool of dysfunction and depravity and a little more concerned about how the district has handled this whole thing, up to and including this hearing. Sarah Pritchett was caught by the judge perjuring herself, for heaven's sake! Nyland has never considered the implications of the fact that a chaperone would have to have keys for all the hotel rooms of sleeping teenagers to do an after-curfew bed check (it doesn't take much to extrapolate the potential downsides of that...). You seriously need to watch his long, uncomfortable pause in the KING5 report from a couple days ago as it dawns on him. Oh, and he doesn't read emails and letters from parents, so don't waste your time. The district lawyer snidely declared multiple times that having to hear from Carol's colleagues, students, and parents was SUCH a huge waste of time. He was rude and impatient and couldn't have made it more clear how little the district cared about the actual human beings involved in the case. <br /><br />If nothing else, go to Soup for Teachers and read the summary of the testimony of Judith Billings, former state superintendent. If someone with 50 years of professional experience thinks the district went overboard in its actions, are you, sitting at your computer knowing nothing more than what you've heard from the media or read here, going to keep arguing that you know better? <br /><br />I'm so tired of this. Peace out, suckers.GarfieldMomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18329410568757174272016-04-07T15:36:53.944-07:002016-04-07T15:36:53.944-07:00I think the firing and lawsuit indicate two major ...I think the firing and lawsuit indicate two major things, neither of them a surprise to anyone with time in SPS: Rules and policies are applied differently and disproportionately in different cases, and the district seems afraid of bad PR more than anything. <br /><br />If Ms. Burton deserved firing for breaking a rule and possibly endangering a student, then a whole bunch of other people did as well in various situations. Charlie can provide a list for high-level JSCEE staff. If those people didn't deserve firing, why did Ms. Burton? Because of bad press related to another field trip incident at Garfield. I am baffled as to why Mr. Howard still has a job after the sheer number of bad press incidents. <br /><br />That said, a teacher in the current environment should expect to have to dot all the i's and cross all the t's on a field trip or risk firing if something happens that causes bad press. Garfield teachers doubly so, since field trip problems are more likely to attract bad press. Eric Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70985416409688076122016-04-07T12:35:58.234-07:002016-04-07T12:35:58.234-07:00@Nosy parker,
It is also unfair to say "this...@Nosy parker,<br /><br />It is also unfair to say "this is just another example of a problem, with the same teacher" if you're referring to the boy who was arrested in New York. Ms. Burton was not responsible for his behavior and she responded to it appropriately.Lynnnoreply@blogger.com