tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post3046634761500886477..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: A Plethora of ReadingMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83037356029273892412010-08-23T15:49:44.472-07:002010-08-23T15:49:44.472-07:00Of course I meant HSPE and MAP scores in Reading i...Of course I meant HSPE and MAP scores in Reading in the above scenario.<br /><br />And I'd add one more player:<br /><br />Imagine that the student only gave 50% of their attention per day to the other players, and that 50% attention varied day by day regarding who it was given to.<br /><br />Imagine also that in the fall the student is distracted blows off the Fall MAP. In the winter the student doesn't like the teacher, but still works hard....kind of, and shows an increase of, oh, let's say any old arbitrary number...three points. In the spring the student likes the teacher, and works very, very hard on the test and shows an increase of ten points!<br /><br />A) NOW who gets the credit (or discredit) for this child's score on the MAP (or WASL or whatever)?<br /><br />B) does this score tell us what the student learned, and/or how well they learned it?seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84617591346394247412010-08-23T15:40:12.265-07:002010-08-23T15:40:12.265-07:00Here's a scenario:
Student has six classes:
...Here's a scenario:<br /><br />Student has six classes:<br /><br />Math, Science, Art, History, Remedial Reading, and Language Arts<br /><br />Additionally, student is on track team and debate.<br /><br />All involve reading, all involve the teaching of reading skills and/or metacognative skills that benefit reading.<br /><br />In the evening, the student attends a reading tutorial program at Kumon or somesuch.<br /><br />When being tucked in (okay, it's a middle or high schooler, and that would be kinda strange, but bear with me) the student's grandmother reads stories.<br /><br />Student scores a...Level 3 on HSPE and a...221 on MAP.<br /><br />Who is responsible? Who should be rewarded or penalized?seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60094672802824099222010-08-23T12:26:50.886-07:002010-08-23T12:26:50.886-07:00"I absolutely agree that the teacher effectiv..."I absolutely agree that the teacher effectiveness is the number one SCHOOL-BASED determinant of student academic growth"<br /><br />I don't. I think it's peer group and fit (and by fit, I mean the interaction between the teacher and the students). I'm just not seeing good evidence to convince me that teachers are "the most important school-based factor in education." <br /><br />"Do we remove doctors from areas with dirty water?"<br /><br />No, but we don't fire doctors (or refuse to reimburse them in medicare) based on the proportion of diabetic patients who control their blood sugar, either. <br /><br />The problems evaluating performance are very similar, and I'd be more willing to consider these numerical measures for teachers if we were considering them for doctors, too.zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39064039988441986182010-08-23T12:19:13.310-07:002010-08-23T12:19:13.310-07:00We need them (the measures of effectiveness) to br...We need them (the measures of effectiveness) to break the codification of lifetime appointments with no accountability. <br /><br />Funny how the unions are SOOOO anti-standardized testing. (with good reason). But when it comes to hiring, they want nothing BUT standardized testing. Isn't that ironic? All interviews must be scripted to the max, and all designed by the teacher's union. All interview questions must be indentical. Expected "right" answers are scored. No discussion is allowed. No probing deeply into any given candidate, their background, their special talents, their unique character, their fit for the job. No discretion can be given to the principal or other hiring. And under NO circumstance would an interview ever include teaching a sample class, for a class period, or even a day, in front of real live kids. NEVER! Might hire the best candidate in that case. They sure don't want that to happen.<br /><br />When it comes to hiring.... the union is only too happy to have widgets. Why then cry when they are treated like widgets for promotion or firing? The hiring process is designed to normalize mediocrity, and to expect it.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69581310373465674962010-08-23T11:40:14.616-07:002010-08-23T11:40:14.616-07:00And let's be really clear about the parent/tea...And let's be really clear about the parent/teacher attribution thing.<br /><br />I absolutely agree that the teacher effectiveness is the number one SCHOOL-BASED determinant of student academic growth.<br /><br />However, overall, the primary determinant of student academic achievement is, without a doubt, the active involvement in the student's education by an adult in the student's home.<br /><br />The only time I correct people on this - and I know that I've had to do it a lot - is when they don't mention that the teacher is paramount only within the conscribed sphere of school-based determinants and make it seem that the teacher is the primary determinant overall.<br /><br />Overall, the home-based influences overwhelm the school-based influences.<br /><br />I will be delighted to find an objective measure of student progress that is attributable to the teacher.<br /><br />Here's the funny thing. Most of the people who want these measures to find and dismiss the ineffective teachers also claim that everyone knows who those ineffective teachers are. So even they will admit that we don't need these measures to identify them. So what do we need them for?Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73435751910366880002010-08-23T11:39:27.323-07:002010-08-23T11:39:27.323-07:00Dan, what sort of math do you think they use at t...Dan, what sort of math do you think they use at the private schools? The high performing private schools? Let me give you a clue. It isn't <br />"direct instruction" a 100% scripted plan from SRA (huge corporation)... the thing you love so much,nor Saxon Math, nor Singapore. It's inquiry based, and it's discovery. When you learn from inquiry, you learn more. And, it's about the teachers.<br /><br />My kids have been subjected to "direct instruction" and all the other crap you propose as good. It isn't. And, it doesn't take you far.<br /><br />When the math teacher is no good... blame the book. It isn't about the book.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51107639645244743772010-08-23T11:32:41.281-07:002010-08-23T11:32:41.281-07:00Do we remove doctors from areas with dirty water? ...Do we remove doctors from areas with dirty water? Do we say, oh well, no need to have good doctors? Anybod will do? Do we provide bad doctors to smokers? Why bother? If you're a smoker, you deserve what you get. Don't you?<br /><br />Look, here are the issues.<br /><br />1) We've got a cadre of mediocre teachers. Anybody who has had a kid or more, will see the high rate of teacher mediocrity. Sure, there are some good ones. But, mostly not really too good. And, some downright bad. They are entrenched in their maintaining status quo and self-interest. Ever met Olga? She's the picture of inflexible self-interest. (point MJG)<br /><br />2) We've got a lot students not doing too well, and teachers with no plan to address that. No ideas, no responsibility. The students have the right to be there, no matter how many inferior parts they are comprised of. Not true for the teachers. Teacher's seem to think that their right to a job is equivalent to a student's right to an education. Completely untrue. (point MJG)<br /><br />3) We've got lifetime contracts with no basis in performance. Not only are these maximally expensive, they create perverse incentives. (point MJG)<br /><br />3) We've got a proposal for a simple minded test that attempts to put some accountability into the system. (point teacher's union)<br /><br />4) We've got a system of standardized testing that creates all sorts of perverse incentives. They are anti-teamwork, anti-student, anti-challenged student, and promote teach-to-the-test. (point teacher's union)readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-78748718145704736072010-08-23T11:24:52.836-07:002010-08-23T11:24:52.836-07:00I'm all for rigorous evaluations for teachers....I'm all for rigorous evaluations for teachers. I also think that a teacher's work should be evident in student academic progress. But I don't think that we should measure that progress along a single dimension.<br /><br />In addition, I think it is extraordinarily difficult to determine what elements of student academic progress are attributable to the teacher's talent, skill, and work. I don't think that the MAP score - or even the delta in the MAP score - is a reliable measure of anything meaningful relative to the quality of the teacher's work.<br /><br />I recognize that in the SERVE proposal the student growth element of the evaluation would account for only 25% of the total evaluation, and the MAP score part of that might be even less, but I just don't see it as meaningful in any way. This is not what MAP measures and it cannot be interpreted to measure this.<br /><br />Here's how I would like to see MAP scores used as part of a teacher evaluation:<br /><br />1) Question: How did you use MAP scores to individualize instruction for your students?<br /><br />2) Question: The MAP scores indicated that these students were not working at grade level. What did you do to accelerate their instruction and bring them to grade level?<br /><br />3) Question: The MAP scores indicated that these students were working beyond grade level. What did you do to provide them with instruction at the frontier of their knowlege and skills?<br /><br />As for measuring student progress attributable to the teacher's work, I don't have an alternative. I've yet to see anyone offer one. All of the value-added studies that I've seen that compare teachers to each other, such as the Tennessee one, presume that all classes are equal (or at least statistically equivalent). I can't accept that proposition. Perhaps if we had a large enough sample over multiple years and student-teacher assignment were random, then we could make that leap, but I don't see cause for it now. To think that in a class of 30 every student determines 3.3% of the outcome and to see that the variance in outcomes isn't much more than a few points, puts WAY too much weight on the distribution of students instead of the distribution of talent.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60337884356386356932010-08-23T10:33:25.842-07:002010-08-23T10:33:25.842-07:00It was said:
"within the the parameters of t...It was said:<br /><br /><i><b>"within the the parameters of the school system... the teacher is obviously the thing that matters most."</b></i><br /><br />I take issue with the idea that the most effective way to improve mathematics outcomes in the SPS is to improve the quality of teachers.<br /><br />In my above posting I fault the current system. System improvement is far more important than Teacher Quality in the SPS at this time for Math and likely everything else as well.<br /><br />To improve teacher math content knowledge at this time under the current parameters to the point where a significant improvement in student learning will occur is highly improbable.<br /><br />The are a number of instructional materials and instructional practices that need to be changed to bring about significant improvement in mathematics but these changes will not happen.<b> The current political governance and decision making process makes the intelligent application of relevant data impossible.</b>dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30508654940566495362010-08-23T10:28:34.195-07:002010-08-23T10:28:34.195-07:00To use the doctor example -- most doctors would pr...To use the doctor example -- most doctors would probably argue that without clean water, their efforts to treat are going to have only minimal effect, and that further more, that differences between their treatment outcomes are going to depend very little on the quality of care they've offered. It's as valid to consider the issue for doctors as for teachers, and I think the fundamental model of correlation based measures for evaluating people is fundamentally flawed. <br /><br />Say, for example, that we found that the education level of the parents accounted for 99% of the variance in student performance and the teacher for 1%. Then, does it make sense, as a society to say that all of our energy on improving the education (say, just the ability to read, to keep it simple) should be focused on improving the teacher (in some way we don't understand)? Or, should we be talking about improving the home environment? <br /><br />We considered these issues when someone (probably teachers)brought up the fact that they simply couldn't teach a child who was hungry, and addressed it by giving the children food.zbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205346985598789513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57789741360509152882010-08-23T10:20:33.463-07:002010-08-23T10:20:33.463-07:00Read This, which contains:
Unless and until peopl...<a href="http://mathunderground.blogspot.com/2010/08/education-is-political-problem-and.html" rel="nofollow">Read This</a>, which contains:<br /><i><br />Unless and until people are prepared to investigate the political dimension of the education catastrophe, <b>we are never going to make any significant, permanent progress.</b></i>dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71251318334671297612010-08-23T10:13:11.985-07:002010-08-23T10:13:11.985-07:00Look Melissa, within the the parameters of the sc...Look Melissa, within the the parameters of the school system... the teacher is obviosly the thing that matters most. <br /><br />To constantly deny it, or constantly state that "there's no way anybody can change predetermined outcomes"... well, that really just undermines the point of public education. The only fact is... nobody has bothered to change predetermined outcomes. We call it the achievement gap. While we might not like the measurement aspect of SERVE, encouraging teachers to teach <i>where</i> they are most needed, with financial incentives, can only seen as something positive.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10038192728906407872010-08-23T08:53:39.991-07:002010-08-23T08:53:39.991-07:00Thank you, Maureen, you expressed it much better t...Thank you, Maureen, you expressed it much better than I did.<br /><br />"But equally ridiculous is the idea that the teacher is insignificant in student performance."<br /><br />Who said this on this blog? I have never heard it said anywhere, in any article or blog.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66064546089096620572010-08-23T07:38:53.368-07:002010-08-23T07:38:53.368-07:00All right, fair enough.
One quibble: the test-lin...All right, fair enough.<br /><br />One quibble: the test-linked assessments are not voluntary for new teachers, which means that over time, every teacher will have to submit to them.Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49760448272456722242010-08-23T02:31:56.771-07:002010-08-23T02:31:56.771-07:00Taking the factory model a little further Josh. If...Taking the factory model a little further Josh. If a child with 35% inferior parts comes in, we'd compare the performance of all the classrooms with 35% inferior parts, and see who does better on exit. I'm not sure where the bit about kids not being people comes in. The kids who come in... are the kids. They are the teacher's job, and that diversity they represent is supposedly a good thing, isn't it? I actually don't look at it as "inferior parts", but rather the complexity of the job.<br /><br />Look, I totally get that tests scores, on their own is not a complete measure of anything. But equally ridiculous is the idea that the teacher is insignificant in student performance. That they are insignificant is simply a statement of the actual problem. I'm not saying this is a good plan. Once my kid is in the building... the teacher is the main influence on the student, plain and simple. <br /><br />Actually the whole issue is a plague on both their houses. On MJG for offering up such a pittance to student peformance and quality without any hope of real benefit, and for reducing teaching to her own personal testing. But equally bad is the teacher's union for its blatant self interest, and intransigence. Their attitude is to never give an inch on anything... oh, unless it's for the new teachers. Then it's OK. This thing is <i>voluntary</i>, and so little as to hardly be worth quibbling over. Yet, quibble they do. The whole "merit bonus" would amount to essentially 1 latte per day. Do the Everyday Math.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83064052775968082152010-08-23T02:17:40.088-07:002010-08-23T02:17:40.088-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68918779308405828932010-08-23T00:01:57.065-07:002010-08-23T00:01:57.065-07:00A few thoughts from North Carolina.A few thoughts <a href="http://www.thepilot.com/news/2010/aug/22/nc-needs-to-get-out-of-federal-race-to-the-top/" rel="nofollow">from North Carolina.</a>dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54119853686274499972010-08-22T23:20:52.937-07:002010-08-22T23:20:52.937-07:00Even if one buys into the factory model of educati...Even if one buys into the factory model of education, I think reader's point is, well, off-point.<br /><br />Let's say you view a teacher at a particular grade as akin to the assembly-line worker -- parts arrive, pre-machined, ready to be fit together to pass on to the next station. A worker who's not good at this job does sloppy work, and the product delivered down the line is not up to snuff. Off with his or her head!<br /><br />But in the school factory, the "parts" arrive from places outside the school. The factory worker has to take poorly-tooled, misshapen blobs of humanity, and try to fit them together into a "product" which can move successfully onto the next stage.<br /><br />How on earth can one blame the worker when poorly-prepared parts are delivered to him or her? I have heard with my own ears parents explaining that their kid didn't do the homework because they, the parents, didn't think it was worthwhile.<br /><br />How does a teacher, no matter how bad or good they are, use their mad teacher skillz to effect a change in that kid? And how do they recover from the fact, the FACT, that that kid will screw up their test scores?<br /><br />I think reader's perspective betrays a common viewpoint, which is, kids aren't people. They don't have lives, they don't piss, or poop, or get distracted and depressed when their grilf or boyf is somehow distant -- kids perform on tests the way they perform that day, and the variety of factors involved in what that performance is beggars the imagination, from pop-tarts for breakfast, to gunplay in the neighborhood while they're trying to eat their goddam pop-tart, to, yes, broken fingernails. Stresses. Stressors. Different for every kid, and completely outside the ken, and the reach, of the teacher.<br /><br />I'm not dissing you, reader, for not seeing this. I'm honestly astonished that you can't. Sometimes our view of our own lives prevents us from being able to understand something from outside that experience. Maybe that's what's happening here.Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14644110686855536972010-08-22T22:14:47.635-07:002010-08-22T22:14:47.635-07:00Dorothy and reader, here is my take on (what I thi...Dorothy and reader, here is my take on (what I think is) your argument. <br /><br />You can't discount the importance of a child's family influence if you are concerned about their academic achievement. "Good" teachers will create more "value" for kids who have had "good" parents, but "good" teachers will ALSO create more value for kids who have "bad" parents. <br /><br />In addition, ALL kids would do better if their parents were "good." I.e., if we can put some focus into creating "good" parents, we will positively multiply the impact of the many "good" teachers we have.<br /><br />(And reader, I, <b>personally</b>, would appreciate it if you could find something other than "DUH" to say when you disagree with someone's logic. That is one of the very few words I have forbidden my kids to say--I believe it reflects very poorly on the person who employs it. I think it sends a message of inferior intelligence (which conflicts with my impression of you dear reader!).Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14725080172289835932010-08-22T20:27:25.227-07:002010-08-22T20:27:25.227-07:00"Well, the same rhetoric (parents vs teachers..."Well, the same rhetoric (parents vs teachers) applies to programs too doesn't it? I mean, if "parents are numero uno"... then neither the teacher nor the program matter much, do they?"<br /><br />Again, where's the logic here? I didn't say the teacher didn't matter. But also, if you read the LEV blog, teachers are supposed to be social workers and doctors. <br /><br />I'm not saying teachers aren't key (and never did but do keep trying, Reader), I'm saying that teachers CAN'T change what comes in the classroom and yes that has an impact on how much the teacher can do.<br /><br />It's apples and oranges and all I'm saying is that we need to acknowledge that and not throw everything on teachers.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24583672505303812612010-08-22T18:55:24.753-07:002010-08-22T18:55:24.753-07:00Well, the same rhetoric (parents vs teachers) appl...Well, the same rhetoric (parents vs teachers) applies to programs too doesn't it? I mean, if "parents are numero uno"... then neither the teacher nor the program matter much, do they? Why bother with either... if they really don't matter? Except, people have their pet programs they wish to support.<br /><br />The studies don't say anything about the influences of the "impact of parents"... because that's obviously NOT something that schools can control. Duh. Sure, we could broaden the discussion. But then it would be SaveOurPublicPlanet... not SaveOurPublicSchools. <br /><br />Schools are supposed to serve everybody, remember? No matter who your parents are, remember? To simply throw up your hands and say... "Oh well, the parents are big idiots. So sad, too bad. Schools did their best for me, teacher must have been good." defeats the point of public education.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37277698188353740662010-08-22T18:50:51.891-07:002010-08-22T18:50:51.891-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41492393109075494032010-08-22T18:32:06.588-07:002010-08-22T18:32:06.588-07:00It was so sad to read that this data was never mad...It was so sad to read that this data was never made available to teachers prior to this LA Times article, who then decided to take it all public. <br /><br />Personally, I would love to have access to the trend of my students' performance on standardized tests. It would be one of many pieces of information that I could use to help me identify strengths and weaknesses in my practice. And, from the experience of the Board certified teacher mentioned in the article, a piece that there isn't another way to identify. <br /><br />That said, it was troubling that the reporters equated quality teaching with only these test scores, which is ridiculous. <br /><br />I would be interested to know why parents sought out these specific teachers, what is it that they value that they can measure through less formal channels, and why didn't the reporters address these attributes as part of the teachers' over-all effectiveness? Would knowing the results of test scores change these parents' minds?kmk33noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54966877296466542732010-08-22T18:17:48.828-07:002010-08-22T18:17:48.828-07:00Melissa, I think I understand Reader's point a...Melissa, I think I understand Reader's point and I have to agree. <br /><br />There are some valid talking points regarding whether or not to reward teachers for performance. There's a valid discussion to be had about whether that's a good idea or not or HOW it could be done in a valid way (if at all).<br /><br />But folks chiming in about how parents are more important than teachers for a kid's success is pretty much a non-sequitur in that discussion and it gets kinda tired.<br /><br />Why should "they" be saying anything about what happens at home? We are talking about education, not social work. What happens at home is beyond the control of schools, so why not keep the discussion within that realm?<br /><br />The only place I can see that it is valid is if we are trying to come up with a valid "value added" performance measure and one would have to factor in home life. <br /><br />BUT, if we go too far in that direction, then you are back where we started before NCLB, when the culture of low expectations was widely accepted. NCLB, for all it's faults, tried to obliterate that sort of thinking, giving up on kids based on their home situation.Dorothy Nevillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17108759281089768738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-2853628410760336862010-08-22T18:00:07.953-07:002010-08-22T18:00:07.953-07:00But Reader, how do you really feel?
The point is ...But Reader, how do you really feel?<br /><br />The point is that no one IS saying anything about parents and what happens at home. No one (or else they give it lip service).<br /><br />I absolutely don't follow your train of thought, though. You go from a program to a teacher to what? Honestly, I don't see your point.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.com