tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post3434426203823571038..comments2024-03-28T23:38:22.511-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Student and Teacher Argument at Franklin; Student ArrestedMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81533682938842065502010-01-20T15:31:39.221-08:002010-01-20T15:31:39.221-08:00Jill
Looks to us like SSDemp nailed you in her 6:...Jill<br /><br />Looks to us like SSDemp nailed you in her 6:58 AM comment.<br /><br />Why not speak for yourself rather than pretending to be a "NHparent"?<br /><br />You appear to be totally shameless.PNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00000744672310472755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74157961734540228942010-01-15T07:11:45.938-08:002010-01-15T07:11:45.938-08:00Further, I don't see PN "blaming" Ji...Further, I don't see PN "blaming" Jill, merely refering to "issues" related to her performance.<br /><br />Using "NH parent"'s logic, Jill's accountability and leadership must be the underlying cause of the<br /><br />"weekly fights, repeated reports of kids being robbed by other kids at school, bullying, weapons being brought to school, and oh yeah... gangs. Last week a girl was violently beaten unconscious by a boy she didn't know while waiting at the bus stop. It was brutal, and it was video taped, and put on utube for all of us horrified parents to watch".<br /><br />Having worked in the building for quite awile, I can honestly say that these problems have increased since she arrived here.<br /><br />Lets try to keep it real, OK?SSDemphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10262177662503999431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65256694708238105032010-01-15T06:58:11.527-08:002010-01-15T06:58:11.527-08:00Come on, those security folks obviously have their...Come on, those security folks obviously have their hands full as well. Can we at least acknowledge that?<br /><br />Frankly "NH parent", in reviewing your posts and the agenda you are advancing based on heresay, rumor and innuendo, my guess is that you may actually be Jill Hudson or someone spinning a web for her.<br /><br />Might I have nailed it?SSDemphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10262177662503999431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30286961035439036762010-01-15T06:52:16.638-08:002010-01-15T06:52:16.638-08:00NH parent, please read my post carefully and that ...NH parent, please read my post carefully and that of PN.<br /><br />Both were referring to a Security employee who transferred out recently to another site. He didn’t quit, nor is he the remaining employee who you are apparently referring to.<br /><br />Taking the time to comprehend posts before “throwing shots” around would benefit us all on sites like this.<br /><br />Thank you.SSDemphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10262177662503999431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6262463237955122172010-01-14T21:24:11.550-08:002010-01-14T21:24:11.550-08:00We know the security guy at Hale too. And though h...We know the security guy at Hale too. And though he has been there for many years, he is regarded as a dud. The woman security guard that used to work with him a few years ago was so frustrated by his lack of work ethic that she transferred out of Hale and into Washington middle school. <br /><br />Dr. Hudson is not a push over like past Hale principal's. Teachers and security that are not doing their jobs probably don't like her because she actually holds them accountable.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51068811204736382462010-01-14T20:54:51.886-08:002010-01-14T20:54:51.886-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69919200210407757122010-01-14T19:04:33.202-08:002010-01-14T19:04:33.202-08:00Other high schools have various bell schedules (ev...Other high schools have various bell schedules (even varying by the day) but still have more than one lunch period. Just takes some vision and commitment to make positive change for kids. Think: Ballard (Mr. Brockman), Franklin (Ms. Wiley) and Cleveland. What makes Hale so different I wonder?<br /><br />Much better neighborhood than at least 2 of those.<br /><br />We know the Security guy who left. He didn’t quit. He asked to be moved because Jill is disrespectful and abusive to staff and he wouldn’t put up with it. He is very highly regarded and didn’t have to.<br /><br />Don’t believe the “spin” you might have been told as cover.SSDemphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10262177662503999431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77343528125392022272010-01-14T18:58:57.468-08:002010-01-14T18:58:57.468-08:00Seattle Citizen,
She didn't run out of the ro...Seattle Citizen,<br /><br />She didn't run out of the room in fear. She was pissed off and she took his phone with her. She didn't want him to get it back. She wanted institutional compliance at all cost. If she were truly afraid of him, she'd have just given him the phone and moved on.<br /><br />Sounds like the kid is a problem. Again, that's not the issue.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10488707626441965402010-01-14T18:28:28.636-08:002010-01-14T18:28:28.636-08:00There is a lot of violence at Nathan Hale. There a...There is a lot of violence at Nathan Hale. There are weekly fights, repeated reports of kids being robbed by other kids at school, bullying, weapons being brought to school, and oh yeah... gangs. Last week a girl was violently beaten unconscious by a boy she didn't know while waiting at the bus stop. It was brutal, and it was video taped, and put on utube for all of us horrified parents to watch. The boy was a 7th grader from Jane Addams, and the girl was a NH student. Thankfully the boy was arrested. Unlike PN who posted above, I do not blame Dr. Hudson for the violence. I think she's doing a great job with the hand she has been dealt, and is been cracking down. There is a budget shortage which only allows two security guards at the school. And they are duds. Have been duds for years. My guess is that Dr. Hudson probably wasn't standing for that security guards slacking any more, and that's why he quit, but that's just my guess. <br /><br />Further, due to their odd bell schedule, and late starts, they can only have only one lunch shift. That alone creates an unsafe environment with a severe lack of supervision (2 security officers responsible for 1200 kids all at the same time). Lunch time is when most fights happen, as does a lot of bullying, and pot smoking. Kids know where to go so they won't get caught. It's really out of control.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33604160252601555622010-01-14T15:04:12.186-08:002010-01-14T15:04:12.186-08:00The problems at Hale have been exacerbated by bein...The problems at Hale have been exacerbated by being short staffed by Security because of issues related to Ms. Hudson’s lack of leadership and people skills.<br /><br />One highly qualified and respected Security guy left in December due to her (“I’m in charge here”) overbearing micro-managing and poor social skills and (we are told) really no one else wants to work around her or her “cohorts”. There is a sub there now and the hiring freeze has left her to now make the best of the bed she has made.<br /><br />Unfortunately, kids safety shouldn’t be made to suffer due to her shortcomings.PNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00000744672310472755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20800229419617521142010-01-14T14:47:55.938-08:002010-01-14T14:47:55.938-08:00I agree with the idea that the teacher could have ...I agree with the idea that the teacher could have let it go and told the student that if he was going to sleep in her class, then he wasn't eligible to "borrow" any materials. Period. That would get the message across. But she didn't.<br /><br />However, the student blew his top. If I were the teacher and witnessing this kind of behavior of throwing things around, I'd leave the room as well. He either tried to trip her to stop her or hurt her or both. <br /><br />Schools have, upon occasion, taken upon themselves to decide whether or not to call police and have made the wrong decision not to call. It's really not their call to make especially if the teacher says to call them.<br /><br />However, I suspect the teacher will not press charges and the student will end up expelled from the school.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59998003586279042912010-01-14T14:41:08.105-08:002010-01-14T14:41:08.105-08:00"The [student] followed the [teacher] and kic...<i>"The [student] followed the [teacher] and kicked her left foot in an attempt to trip her."</i><br /><br />I took this to mean that he kicked her but she didn't fall.<br /><br />The <a href="http://www.seattleschools.org/area/m_families/basicrules.pdf" rel="nofollow"> Basic Rules</a> pamphlet we all get at the beginning of the year says:<br /><br /><i><b>"EXCEPTIONAL MISCONDUCT:</b><br /><br />Students will be disciplined, and normally will also be referred to the police to face criminal charges, if they commit any of the exceptional misconduct on the list below.....<b> Assault –</b> Being physically violent, using unwarranted force, or demonstrating the deliberate and immediate intent to be physically<br />violent toward another person.....<b> Intimidation of School Authorities – </b>Interfering, or attempting to<br />interfere, with the discharge of the official duties of District<br />personnel by using direct, deliberate, or focused threats, force, or violence, such that the staff person believes his or her safety or the well-being of his or her property is in danger....</i><br /><br />It seems like once the situtation had escalated, Franklin was just following SPS policy by calling the police.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-33046927166695232412010-01-14T14:34:48.311-08:002010-01-14T14:34:48.311-08:00reader, the teacher didn't call police, securi...reader, the teacher didn't call police, security did.<br /><br />Here's one scenario: Teacher makes what some might consider a blunder (umm, she's human?) and gets upset that student lost pencil or whatever, with-holds cell. Okay, if that happened, maybe not so smart.<br /><br />THEN: Student sweeps stuff off desk, teacher is concerned for her safety, leaves room. Student follows, attempting to trip her up (he admits this). Teacher becomes even more concerned for her safety (I know teachers who have been hit by a number of students...should they just wait for it? Is it ever assault? When does it become assault?) and reports to office, who sends security, and THEY decide to get cops.<br />Teacher is upset enough to go home for day....I'd say something seriously freaked her out, yet this is "routine" management?<br /><br />My question is, how much should a teacher put up with as part of their daily routine? If a student regularly provokes a teacher, is this "routine"? Is it legal harassment? What should be the consequences?seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18777521084179849802010-01-14T14:22:53.443-08:002010-01-14T14:22:53.443-08:00Solvay, even if the kid was horrible (and likely h...Solvay, even if the kid was horrible (and likely he is).. he doesn't deserve an arrest record, at least for this. In that regard, it's the teacher's fault. Ergo, it's the teacher's fault. True, the kid could be a rotten piece of dog-crap...but that's missing the point on this issue.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67499434839485985692010-01-14T14:14:36.801-08:002010-01-14T14:14:36.801-08:00Cell phones cost a couple of hundred dollars to pr...Cell phones cost a couple of hundred dollars to produce. If they appear to cost $20, the seller is making the money some other way, such as by a long-term contract for somewhat more than the service actually costs to provide. <br /><br />It's true that we don't know the whole back story or word-for-word what happened. Judging just by what we see in the article, there were faults and escalations on both sides. But I expect a teacher and a grownup to be able to deescalate a situation like that rather than make it worse.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83428881461659695762010-01-14T12:37:59.021-08:002010-01-14T12:37:59.021-08:00I picked up the $00 from someone else's post—s...I picked up the $00 from someone else's post—sorry. But even a $20 cellphone costs something to use, etc. My point was if the child was so poor that they could not afford a pencil, then how did they afford the cellphone.<br /><br />And Reader. Why are you so quick to blame the teacher? You weren't there either. I said I don't know who is truly at fault, or what really happened or why. You may be right, but it's all speculation.SolvayGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12709893209963350066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83370707272733265142010-01-14T11:20:08.977-08:002010-01-14T11:20:08.977-08:00Seattle Citizen,
True, tripping (that didn't ...Seattle Citizen,<br /><br />True, tripping (that didn't actually happen) <i>can</i> be construed as assault. Sure. And taking somebody's cell phone <i>could</i> be construed as robbery, and asking for it as collateral <i>could</i> be criminal usury. But, all of those things would be ridiculous. Nobody would call the police because of the teacher's criminal behavior would they? We'd all agree that would be inappropriate and over the top. Why wouldn't we assume that same thing for the student? He is one who is supposed to be getting service, the customer. We expect the professionals, to be professional, and appropriate. For a minor student, you'd only call the police over something like that if you held the student in utter comtempt. Obviously, the teacher has absolutely no regard for his future. Children aren't typically considered "criminals" when there are discipline problems. <br /><br />So here's what I see. It's already a stretch to call the police over a pencil incident. It's another stretch to consider this thing an assault... where nobody was even touched. To top it off, it's even more of a stretch when the person involved was a minor. It's not as if the assault was so big it needed adult consequences. In fact, if it were an adult, this teacher would never have done anything as stupid as running down the hall, calling the police, and leaving school because she couldn't handle it emotionally. The report mentioned that too. She had to leave school.<br /><br />Of course we don't know the situation. And Solvay... why insert your values? So what if the pencil problem happens every day? Maybe the kid is a big, fat loser idiot. Maybe the kid is really criminal. So what? Does that change anything? It isn't a license to escalate or inappropriately use police or be ridiculous.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73631397771226490742010-01-14T10:08:48.869-08:002010-01-14T10:08:48.869-08:00Where did this "$300 cell phone" come fr...Where did this "$300 cell phone" come from? I don't see anything in the Slog entry that mentions a price. My daughter's cell phone was maybe $20.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11136554384986606822010-01-14T09:11:34.779-08:002010-01-14T09:11:34.779-08:00To be honest...I don't know who acted appropri...To be honest...I don't know who acted appropriately here. I wasn't there, and I don't know the history. Maybe this kid "forgets" his pencil every day as an excuse not to do work. Maybe the teacher has it in for this kid and was looking for a reason to oust him from her classroom. Maybe it's something else entirely and everything in between.<br /><br />My only point was not to automatically blame the teacher, and certainly not to cry poor child when he had a $300 cellphone.SolvayGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12709893209963350066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75015949294725753512010-01-14T09:05:12.779-08:002010-01-14T09:05:12.779-08:00reader's comments point to a difficult aspect ...reader's comments point to a difficult aspect of all this:<br /><br />Tripping CAN be construed as "assualt," at least in the legal sphere. That it is usually not indicates that educators DO have some degree of laxness (and I agree that they should...sometimes..)<br /><br />So DO some educators (or even schools) take it to the legal limit more often than others? And why?<br /><br />This is the crux of some very important statistics if we look at disciplinary rates nationally (and here) - some groups get discplined at a much higher rate. My guess is that a) some teachers have preconceptions and act on them; b) soem students think teachers have these preconceptions and act out because of it; c) there is no common expectation of levels of consequence, so some come down hard and some don't, which must be confusing; d) children ARE different, and should, in my opinion, be treated as individuals, but a teacher can't generalize behaviours and act on these preconceptions.<br /><br />It's a sticky wicket.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17294650467216230952010-01-14T08:51:32.696-08:002010-01-14T08:51:32.696-08:00Maureen, it's true we all want to hold our ki...Maureen, it's true we all want to hold our kids accountable, and to high standards. But I don't know anybody that wants their kid disciplined by getting arrested.. unless there is absolutely no other alternative for something incredibly serious and violent. I'm pretty sure that if your kid makes a mistake, and even physically jestures at a teacher(a jesture is what it was)... you don't want to be picking him up at the police station and posting bail. I think the race/class part actually goes the other way around. It's totally ok to arrest a Franklin kid for some relatively minor stuff, but totally not OK if the school did the same thing at... oh, let's see, Center School or Nova. Minority students are overwhelmingly subjected to much harsher and draconian disciplinary actions than others. While this kid may or may not be a minority student, the school is largely minority and they probably think it's totally fine to have this level of retribution in the school.readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02754095597231700863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-13604922600198191622010-01-14T08:42:36.939-08:002010-01-14T08:42:36.939-08:00Yes, moose, I feel that way too. While it is an in...Yes, moose, I feel that way too. While it is an interesting discussion, we should bear in mind that we are speaking almost purely in hypotheticals, we don't know what actually happened, nor do we know the character/attitudes/skills of either of the people. Let's keep it hypothetical and not try to assign blame/responsibility when we don't know the situation.seattle citizenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724175257161649500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-1525772324386770442010-01-14T08:36:22.707-08:002010-01-14T08:36:22.707-08:00All these comments about what the teacher should h...All these comments about what the teacher should have done remind me of all the parenting advice I gave out before I had kids. We are arm-chair quarterbacking a situation that we know little about.Moosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14000546753926356080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11918980724695377322010-01-14T08:11:31.281-08:002010-01-14T08:11:31.281-08:00Dan we are going on what Melissa posted, a quote f...Dan we are going on what Melissa posted, a quote from The Stranger Slog, statements from Franklin Security,and an excerpt from the police report. Seems like 4 reliable sources to me, though you are right, that only two people (and maybe some witnesses) really know what happened.seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72131411599398431712010-01-14T08:10:29.466-08:002010-01-14T08:10:29.466-08:00OK. so we all know the kid did something very wron...OK. so we all know the kid did something very wrong when he used violence against a teacher. Nobody is disputing that. It is inexcusable.<br /><br />But how about the teachers actions? Solvay I'll ask you: Do you think the tacher acted appropriately? Do you think he/she could have done anything differently? Could the situation have been diffused in any way? And what if your child forgets her pencil, which she will? How would you like to see it handled? Just curious.<br /><br />BTW Solvay you make a good point in that the student had a $300 cell phone, so he obviously could have afforded a lot of 5 cent pencils. So perhaps you are right in that it was not a low income/poverty issue. Perhaps he was just being a typical, forgettful, hormonal, teen? Like mine!seattlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231800476411684686noreply@blogger.com