tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post3497808547670765749..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Instructional Materials WaiversMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85018984586327727952011-10-04T16:40:08.462-07:002011-10-04T16:40:08.462-07:00Well said, Dan. The "curriculum experts"...Well said, Dan. The "curriculum experts" have a long, glorious history of chasing academic fads and ignoring factual data. <br /><br />Their careers are "invested" in convincing people to pay them lots of money to make reasonably straightforward, common sense concepts as obtuse and confusing as possible. (This is why it takes dozens of "math coaches" to help qualified, professional teachers teach CMP, ED, and Discovery, and almost NO coaches to help teachers teach Singapore and Saxon -- which yield much better results.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68207397859852241582011-10-03T23:07:23.867-07:002011-10-03T23:07:23.867-07:00--like WW said:
Why do we think a bunch of parent...--like WW said:<br /><br /><i>Why do we think a bunch of parents are curriculum experts? That is <b>what we pay these people to do</b>.</i><br />----<br />----<br /><br />News Bulletin:<br /><b><i>The quality of education research in America is extraordinarily low.</i></b><br /><br />Viewing <i>"these people that we pay as curriculum experts"</i> is naive.<br /><br />Look at the current remediation rates for both Language Arts and Math at the collegiate level for recent high school graduates.<br /><br />There is little evidence that the 110+ academic coaches for teachers improved anything. The requirement to be an expert in the SPS is the ability to whistle the politically correct song.<br /><br />The current required allegiance to District political tribalism should not lead us to the view that these folks are curriculum experts simply because they are paid and all agree with each other. Results do matter.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83610391105473789202011-10-03T14:35:37.055-07:002011-10-03T14:35:37.055-07:00It's ok. In India, they are still teaching th...It's ok. In India, they are still teaching the Queen's English. We can outsource our writing and editing over there like we do more and more of our radiology and legal work. I have no idea what our kids will be able to do once they get their US college degree here. <br /><br />-befuddledAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45922299896807913132011-10-03T13:54:16.352-07:002011-10-03T13:54:16.352-07:00"It's sad when I'm nearly in tears wi..."It's sad when I'm nearly in tears with gratitude for teachers that somehow manage to squeeze in some vocabulary and grammar instruction."<br /><br />Give these exceptional teachers all the fierce support you can. Write the Board of Directors, Dr. Enfield, Ed Directors, principals, etc.<br /><br />Teachers I know who have tried to teach LA basics, even behind closed doors, have been sanctioned, scolded, retaliated against, moved from teaching LA at all, even harrassed out of teaching all together.<br /><br />Also, concerning drills - that's how one learns most things- soccer kicks to videogames to boiling an egg. It may not be a laugh a minute but it works.<br /><br />-JC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34622968329213670442011-10-02T09:49:04.677-07:002011-10-02T09:49:04.677-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80153048980108243072011-10-02T09:33:21.206-07:002011-10-02T09:33:21.206-07:00It's discussions like these that make me long ...It's discussions like these that make me long for a Core Knowledge type of school...and you don't need to have charters to start one. <br /><br />It's sad when I'm nearly in tears with gratitude for teachers that somehow manage to squeeze in some vocabulary and grammar instruction. It's just so basic.<br /><br />And grammar's not just for writing skills; how can one understand a foreign language without knowing their own?<br /><br />venting parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-68128176584084441272011-10-01T22:32:50.276-07:002011-10-01T22:32:50.276-07:00Readers/Writers workshop is a joke. When are we g...Readers/Writers workshop is a joke. When are we going to move beyond "small moments"? It might be appropriate for K-2 and that's about it.<br /><br />My 10th grader in the pre IB program told me only one kid in their entire class passed the grammar test. Her teacher at Open House told us the test was at a 4th grade level. What have the kids been doing all these years?<br /><br />I wish this district would get some common sense and teach some basic skills. What is wrong with central office and why are they so enamored with all the garbage curriculum?Linh-Conoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70548394847443703152011-10-01T21:01:22.074-07:002011-10-01T21:01:22.074-07:00The main premise of WW is that you learn to write ...<i>The main premise of WW is that you learn to write by writing, and writing a lot.</i><br /><br />What's the old saw? Not practice makes perfect, but practice makes permanent.<br /><br />After a couple years of grade school, I pointed out to my kid that they were consistently writing a letter in their name backwards. Upon writing it the correct way, my kid informed me, "No, that doesn't look right."<br /><br />Yeah, I bet it doesn't, not after writing it backwards for two straight years without correction in class.<br /><br />Interestingly, my kid's Japanese teachers don't take the "don't stifle them with instruction" approach. They can't. No one's going to pick up the slack at home.<br /><br />I swear the crappy math and WW coast along on the fact that many parents will fill in the details. I pity the kids who don't have parents who do.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60438056255167008042011-10-01T20:58:58.073-07:002011-10-01T20:58:58.073-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16540428343439198125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73833430944499054302011-10-01T19:39:54.877-07:002011-10-01T19:39:54.877-07:00My child had WW beginning mid way through elementa...My child had WW beginning mid way through elementary school and all through MS. When she got to HS she struggled through her LA class- and she ultimately failed the course. She was totally unprepared for HS English - despite taking honors English all through MS. Since SPS did not offer summer or night school this year she took an online English course (from a highly respected institution) to make up the credit- and boy was it an eye opener. The course covered, equally: spelling, reading comprehension, writing and literary elements, grammar, and punctuation. And we found out just how far behind she actually was. She never learned proper sentence structure, how to use literary elements, grammar, or punctuation. And she struggled with spelling. All the creative writing, and the many socratic seminars that her MS English classes did (while I loved them) could not possibly fill in for a teacher not teaching basic writing fluency. Further, my daughter had never been exposed to any classical novels, or other genres of writing (in school). Her classes always read "cool" books that her teachers thought would interest the kids. <br /><br />If it were up to me I'd ditch WW, and go back to a more traditional approach - especially in middle elementary. I know it's not "fun" but kids need to learn how to write fluently, grammar rules, spelling, etc. No matter how creative they are, or how much they love to write, if they can't form a coherent story, or argument, or essay, and can't punctuate it, they are going to flop on their faces in HS, and college. It will catch up with them eventually.<br /><br />NOWWanonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25638302114314337332011-10-01T19:32:50.369-07:002011-10-01T19:32:50.369-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85626135328533714792011-10-01T19:14:52.808-07:002011-10-01T19:14:52.808-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66813150862599995632011-10-01T19:05:21.172-07:002011-10-01T19:05:21.172-07:00"Agree completely with above posters' abo..."Agree completely with above posters' about using Reader's and Writer's workshop and the Discovery Math curriculum in MS."<br /><br />Just FYI, MS math is CMP. Only HS math (9-12th grade) is Discovery.<br /><br />"I don't think I got one lick of benefit from parsing sentences, vocabulary/spelling tests, punctionation drills, grammar instruction, or any of the stuff we did when I was a kid. "<br /><br />Maybe you didn't get much out spelling, sentence structure, etc., after all it is certainly not "fun" and it's pretty rote. But at least you were exposed to it, and taught it. Our children are not even being exposed, formally, to grammar, punctuation, writing fluency, sentence structure, or literary elements. Quite frankly, they are being robbed of basic LA instruction. And it's sad.<br /><br />just sayin'anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91370723932991326192011-10-01T18:54:28.220-07:002011-10-01T18:54:28.220-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03716725891562757052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63048432553334195462011-10-01T18:52:34.517-07:002011-10-01T18:52:34.517-07:00like WW, is your experience with R&WW in K-5 o...<b>like WW</b>, is your experience with R&WW in K-5 or middle school? <br /><br /><b>another parent</b>, TOPS doesn't use R/WW in MS (generally does in 1-5). Does use District curriculum, CMP for 6-7 and Discovering Algebra in 8th, for Math (EDM is only K-5 from what I understand.)Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12350274613243837622011-10-01T16:08:31.769-07:002011-10-01T16:08:31.769-07:00I have to say, I love Writer's Workshop. I d...I have to say, I love Writer's Workshop. I don't think I got one lick of benefit from parsing sentences, vocabulary/spelling tests, punctionation drills, grammar instruction, or any of the stuff we did when I was a kid. I do believe the claim that these old-style techniques didn't yeild much. Writer's Workshop doesn't keep a teacher from delivering any content. The main premise of WW is that you learn to write by writing, and writing a lot. And, at my kids' middle school they've gotten plenty of opportunity to write on a variety of topics, in a variety of styles.<br /><br />Why do we think a bunch of parents are curriculum experts? That is what we pay these people to do.<br /><br />-like WWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81435128463661579842011-10-01T11:43:28.333-07:002011-10-01T11:43:28.333-07:00Agree completely with above posters' about usi...Agree completely with above posters' about using Reader's and Writer's workshop and the Discovery Math curriculum in MS. Does anyone know if there are alternative middle schools that don't use the Workshop and Discovery Math series? We find supplementing on top of school load too much for our middleschooler. <br /><br />-another parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39599905186228162882011-09-30T19:10:38.602-07:002011-09-30T19:10:38.602-07:00anonymous 7:08 post signed "tired of RW"...anonymous 7:08 post signed "tired of RW"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40966144854167747002011-09-30T19:08:33.917-07:002011-09-30T19:08:33.917-07:00We are homeschooling our 8th grader in language ar...We are homeschooling our 8th grader in language arts this year due to dissatisfaction with the Readers/Writers Workshop model.<br /><br />Our daughter first asked to homeschool in LA a couple of months into her 6th grade year, after becoming frustrated by receiving such minimal feedback on her writing and not having opportunities to discuss literature in class. My daughter explained to me that this was all part of some "new program." When I met with her teacher, I was dismayed to find out that, in addition to the issues my daughter had mentioned, the R/W Workshop curriculum does not provide any formal instruction in vocabulary or grammar. My daughter liked her teacher but even she knew that she wasn't being challenged. We supplemented heavily for the next two years.<br /><br />My daughter's grown tired of supplementing at home and, in her words, "just wasting time" at school. We agreed that she wouldn't have to take LA at school this year. Initially, we tried dually enrolling in the Washington Virtual Academy but found out that the district had made a last minute decision to discontinue dual enrollment (any public engagement? not that I heard about). We then tried to take advantage of the board's 2010 policy on online learning (C57.00). Our request was declined, so we are simply homeschooling. The more traditional approach we're using at home is a much better fit for our daughter. <br /><br />I agree that the workshop model can be beneficial for younger kids (and for older kids who are struggling), but I think it's a step in the wrong direction for many middle schoolers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72117094983619836352011-09-30T17:45:07.051-07:002011-09-30T17:45:07.051-07:00Using Writers Workshop K-8 feels criminal. It is m...Using Writers Workshop K-8 feels criminal. It is meant as a K-5 curriculum. It is stealing hours of my child's time that could be spent actually learning. My child's writing skills have regressed while spelling and grammar take a back seat to feelings and personal moments (that aren't quite personal, because they get read aloud). <br /><br />venting parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26750456483958231262011-09-30T16:02:34.708-07:002011-09-30T16:02:34.708-07:00I have to say that I agree re: Writer's Worksh...I have to say that I agree re: Writer's Workshop as far as teaching kids how to write correctly. It doesn't. <br /><br />My kid has worked with Writer's Workshop since K. We lived in a different part of the country at that time and our district used it. I was fairly happy with it when he was younger, just getting him to write was impressive to me - although not everything that he wrote was impressive.<br /><br />Now however, I can see the huge gaps in 8th grade. His 8th grade LA teacher has broken out an ancient grammar and punctuation book and is filling in those holes. Thank goodness - as I actually wasn't aware of how much he didn't know up to this point.<br /><br />Common Sense is that you have to supplement in order to cover all bases. Teachers know this - we just need to let them do their job (by approving waivers when necessary when mandated curriculum isn't cutting it).CCMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07038994914929300444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22023974841518271372011-09-30T14:54:12.934-07:002011-09-30T14:54:12.934-07:00It's not only math, it's also the non-mand...It's not only math, it's also the non-mandated Writers Workshop.<br /><br />Teachers and whole schools forced by the admins into using a non-literate curriculum with the focus on "feelings" not grammar or objective thinking.<br /><br />Kids and teachers are being evaluated by the number of scribbled up pages filled, not on content or clarity or commas.<br /><br />Even Michael DeBell has admiitted publically that WW is not a good curriculm. Too bad he doesn't seem to care enough to do anything about it.<br /><br />But no worries - the kids won't be able to write coherent letters of outrage.<br /><br />-JC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82983495636198796582011-09-30T13:24:40.949-07:002011-09-30T13:24:40.949-07:00In answer to WenD at 6:07 on 9/29 above..
Niki Ha...In answer to WenD at 6:07 on 9/29 above..<br /><br />Niki Hayes wrote me and said post this=><br /><br />We implemented Saxon Math for K-2 in 2001-2002. Grades 3-5 got Saxon in 2002-2003. I left there at the end of 2004 with 4th grade math scores having risen from 66% in 2000 to above 80% that year. In the spring of 2005, the scores hit 91%. VERY LITTLE PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT WAS NEEDED--2 hours one day.<b><i> The books explain the problems so well that teachers said they finally understood math</i></b>.<br /> <br />I don't know why North Beach or Schmitz Park didn't send information for the board meeting, but I do know that at least one new principal at North Beach in recent years has worked to destroy the Saxon Math program. Of course, I was told that I wasn't a "team player" by having Saxon Math at North Beach. <b>Results, therefore, don't matter,</b> so one wonders why anyone would offer data that suggests such outcomes.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35101862318726308212011-09-30T13:04:53.048-07:002011-09-30T13:04:53.048-07:00Data on the schools is easily obtainable via the O...Data on the schools is easily obtainable via the OSPI website. It might have taken them 2 minutes to get the achievement scores. Don't they have access to the web at least via their personal phones?<br />-excuse haterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-89501082273990651362011-09-30T12:06:20.919-07:002011-09-30T12:06:20.919-07:00Peter did ask for waivers for new schools last yea...Peter did ask for waivers for new schools last year. Guess asking gets nowhere.Chris S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17016898261120819596noreply@blogger.com