tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post3749257374921998083..comments2024-03-29T02:41:52.718-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Advanced Learning Survey OutMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-71487634052513022152012-03-20T15:58:27.493-07:002012-03-20T15:58:27.493-07:00What's going on with the task force? No minut...What's going on with the task force? No minutes since December. Are they through? Any more meetings?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7308453958306788282012-03-16T20:28:26.832-07:002012-03-16T20:28:26.832-07:00"Another parent", your mistake is thinki..."Another parent", your mistake is thinking there is a fixed size pot of money that is divided among students, no matter how many or how few students there are.<br /><br />That mistake would be just a mistake if it didn't lead to such tragic conclusions. It makes you think Seattle Public Schools is a zero sum game where, if you can only drive enough people out, you who remain will have everything that is left.<br /><br />That isn't how it works. There isn't a fixed pot of money. You can't win by getting rid of people. <br /><br />The fact is that, unless our public schools attract and educate all the children of Seattle, levies and taxes will fail, charters will pass, and public schools will see their funding deeply cut. And, if that happens, the kids who can't get out will be the ones who get the most hurt.Zombienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87035157631515866162012-03-16T13:09:37.300-07:002012-03-16T13:09:37.300-07:00I am pointing the SPS statistics out not to show L...I am pointing the SPS statistics out not to show Lakeside or other private schools are better (I don't really care about them), but it is important to acknowledge that within this district we have disparity among neighborhoods. It doesn't do us any good to compare a public school to private. It's apple to orange. A straw man. More helpful to see the breakdown of the district school population makeup and see how that impact academic access and outcomes. It helps us figure where we need to focus resources and why is it harder for ALO program in certain neighborhoods to thrive (see periphery's experience). It helps to undersatnd why ALO/spectrum in a wealthier neighborhoods may facing different issues (disinterested principal, parental conflict over labelling) than ALO/spectrum in a poorer neighborhoods (not large enough cohort, more focus and effort on higher need population, limited resources such as lack of parental volunteers/engagement/AL awareness).<br /><br />reality bitesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90805024692545810692012-03-16T12:51:29.886-07:002012-03-16T12:51:29.886-07:00Actually Observer, I have been to Lakeside school ...Actually Observer, I have been to Lakeside school recently, and there is a hugh representation of "minorities" and quite a mix of different cultures, religions, and languages. There are Seattle public schools who have breakdown of < 12% FRL, < 10% Sped Ed, > 75-80% whites. You also have neighborhood schools that have disproportionate numbes of FRL and "minorities" > 50% and very high %ELL. Reality is SPS remains segregated and NSAP will accentuate that. <br /><br />-reality bitesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55824152075143617092012-03-16T11:04:03.947-07:002012-03-16T11:04:03.947-07:00It is all well and good to say that all of our cla...It is all well and good to say that all of our classrooms should be able to meet the academic needs of every student in them, it is something different to find a way to do that.<br /><br />The obvious solution is to reduce class sizes and put some real emphasis on differentiation through training, resources, and management focus. Unfortunately that cannot happen. We lack the funds and the classrooms for the smaller class sizes that would make a difference. We lack the resources or the funding to acquire them. We lack the management talent and authority for a management focus of any kind. Worse, our management focus is currently in exactly the opposite direction: standardization.<br /><br />Another approach, short-cutting the need for those strategies, would be to use technology to introduce a ton of individualized instruction in the areas of skills and skill-building while devoting class time and teacher time to projects that engage higher level cognitive skills as well as collaborative skills. This style of hybrid education, now in use at Queen Anne Elementary and some charter schools, requires an investment in technology that is currently beyond our budget, the development of creative, engaging, challenging lesson plans for class time that we have yet to build, and a revolutionary change in the perception of the teacher's role which is no where near discussion, let alone adoption.<br /><br />The other way to short-cut it would be to group students by skill level and teach the separate skill groupings separately. That's what APP and Spectrum are supposed to do. That's where we are. That's the reality.<br /><br />Don't like that? Then find another path that will get us where we need to be that is within our budget and the abilities of our staff.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80195813446334516772012-03-16T10:25:37.506-07:002012-03-16T10:25:37.506-07:00shouldn't you be angry at the (unusually high)...<i>shouldn't you be angry at the (unusually high) 20% of Seattle parents who refuse to engage in or help Seattle Public Schools and go private instead? </i><br /><br />Why would anybody "hate" people using private school? People who go private should be thanked. They leave the limited resources of the state's education funding for the benefit of others. The idea that we will somehow get more money by having more students doesn't pass the "Everyday Math" sniff test. If there were a lot more students enrolled in SPS, the state would not magically come up with more money. It would simply cut K-12 PER STUDENT funding again. Same money for more students amounts to that basic fact. And a few more cakes sold at the PTA isn't going to make up that difference.<br /><br />Thank you for going private and spending your own money! <br /><br />Do we hate people who use private medical insurance instead of medicare/caid?<br /><br />Another parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69874511616792927682012-03-16T10:25:33.013-07:002012-03-16T10:25:33.013-07:00I think there are strategies that could really wor...I think there are strategies that could really work, but they all require both genuine commitment and resources. I don't agree that any part of a successful strategy involves no longer labeling children. A lack of labeling is one of those things that sounds great on paper, but in actuality what it would mean is that needs may go unidentified and would almost certainly go unmet. Particularly, it would exacerbate geographic/socioeconomic inequalities by putting families in a place of potentially endless advocacy--something that families with certain backgrounds and resources would be more inclined to do, leaving the children of those with other backgrounds and resources even more likely to fall through the cracks than they are now. <br />--peripheryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67805391486308299072012-03-16T10:13:12.855-07:002012-03-16T10:13:12.855-07:00Zombie, you comment is ridiculous.
The fact is...Zombie, you comment is ridiculous. <br /><br />The fact is - we have many, many, many private schools catering to gifted students - mostly white. Or - they count very nominal measures of diversity. (Been to Lakeside lately? They say they're 40% minority, but you sure don't see it when you're there.) The white students remaining in Seattle public schools is around 50% of the total living in Seattle - and significantly "less gifted" than those represented in the city since so many are attending the private schools catering to giftedness. Therefore, true "giftedness" of that community should be under-represented in the SPS programs. Instead, we find the opposite. At the very least, if you consider "access", you must use the percentages actually present is SPS - not those who happen to live in the whole city. SO - access really is an issue. The fact that Lowell at Lincoln has not a single black student speaks volumes to the issue.<br /><br />Converserly, those same private schools accept very students with disabilities. Some accept students with minor disabilities. Therefore, we should see our disability programs OVER represented with white students with disabilities. Here too, we find the opposite. Our disabilities programs are over-represented with students of color, which is a nation-wide civil rights issue.<br /><br />-observerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54504546170355175912012-03-16T07:27:02.355-07:002012-03-16T07:27:02.355-07:00Emile, glad to have you posting. If you go to sear...Emile, glad to have you posting. If you go to search about AL, you will find a glut of discussions in the past on this blog alone. Believe me when it comes to talk, surveys, discussions, and meetings, there have been many and great ones presenting terrific ideas and systemic and thoughtful plans. What has not been forthcoming is the follow through action, which is why we are where we are today. Still talking about it. <br /><br />6+ years and still at itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59251422427262248682012-03-15T23:16:35.857-07:002012-03-15T23:16:35.857-07:00I cannot tell you how sad I am to see the systemat...I cannot tell you how sad I am to see the systematic gutting of gifted learning in Seattle. <br /><br />dkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65046938954972418572012-03-15T23:12:53.967-07:002012-03-15T23:12:53.967-07:00Periphery illustrates the reality very well, Charl...Periphery illustrates the reality very well, Charlie. As long as we're fighting over defining these labels and who deserves to be where, we're spending all our energies that should be directed at simply ensuring appropriate rigor for all kids. This is the reality that won't change unless somebody blinks and just says, Yes, let's change the conversation now.<br /><br />EmileAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-30590349418879585732012-03-15T23:05:33.654-07:002012-03-15T23:05:33.654-07:00APP comment
Kregory King, and I feel Rina G, did n...APP comment<br />Kregory King, and I feel Rina G, did not support teachers who had an understanding of what gifted education was. Note the number of APP teachers that left last year. Our school was gutted. They now have a school full of teachers who know next to nothing about gifted education. Standing up for "gifted education" and the actual needs of gifted students, is what put teacher's on the chopping block. The pressure to let go of creativity, follow only the SPS curriculum guidlines that go out to all schools, culminated in the loss of most of what was "gifted" about our curriculum. <br /><br /> Rina and Gregory would come in and be interested as to if our "teaching point was posted." If we had more than one point in a lesson, we were written up. I can say for sure that gifted children can handle more than one point per lesson. Even testbook lessons are written with a number of teaching points per lesson. Rina and Gregory completely missed the essence of the good teaching that was going on, and attacked excellent teaching. You wonder why teachers left? Believe me, they didn't leave lightly. They were not given a chance to teach "gifted" curriculum any more. <br /><br />I also want to say that the SPS legal audit on the Lowell situation from last year is months late in coming out. I'm sure that it was damning, or it would have been out long ago. <br /><br />Former Lowell TeacherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36270676336557606442012-03-15T13:30:47.630-07:002012-03-15T13:30:47.630-07:00periphery,
I've often wondered if some combin...periphery,<br /><br />I've often wondered if some combination of grade-skipping and clustering could help to meet the needs of isolated/sparse advanced learners. For example, and these are only examples as there are lots of ways this could be strucutred, what if AL qualified kids were given the option of walk-to-reading and/or math in the next class up, grade skipping, or both for 2-year advancement? What if there were some sort of multi-age pull-out that allowed guided self-study? Maybe with a coach who serves multiple schools? What about some sort of scholarship arrangement with the after-school and saturday classes at the UW Robinson Center? How could the AL office set these programs up centrally, so it's easy for principals to adopt them and get back to the task of helping at-risk kids?TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57641351826632472742012-03-15T10:46:16.751-07:002012-03-15T10:46:16.751-07:00With growing class size, our reality is differenti...With growing class size, our reality is differentiation takes place more in the home. Some years, depending on the teacher and cohort size, there is more rigor and depth. We've noticed it takes a lot of work and volunteer time to make that happen especially with any project based learning. And even that turns into more fieldtrips and more individualized project done at home. <br /><br />Also I don't know if it's due to an increase in standardized testing, we've noticed much more teaching to content on the MSP and MAP which doesn't always connects to the curriculum (the LA's workshop, NSF kits, and EDM). <br /><br />DIfferentiation is tough to implement because as so many here have described, you may have some differentiation happening, but differentiation of resources and priority and quality of instruction is not equal. <br /><br />SPS parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52232279413669352762012-03-15T10:03:54.174-07:002012-03-15T10:03:54.174-07:00My ideals just smashed headlong into a brick wall....My ideals just smashed headlong into a brick wall. We live in a lower income, diverse neighborhood, not well served by AL. The landscape is really different here. You can't count on a generally high achieving population, or a critical mass of participants, or sufficient resources. Our attendance area school, which my daughter has gone to since K, is a healthy, happy, integrated title one school. We love it, and I've always wanted to be able to stay here and have her academic needs well met. I've volunteered both in the classroom and in after school tutoring. I've been working with the school to get an ALO started, and it has been sobering. The principal is wonderful and truly believes in meeting the needs of all learners. That being said, the reality of the resources and the needs at this school mean that when push comes to shove (and when a school is operating perpetually under-resourced, it will), priorities will always favor bringing struggling kids up to baseline. No matter how well intentioned, when something has to give, it will be the few in the the high end that get less attention. And honestly, after working with the broad range of kids there and knowing them, I can't begrudge them that.<br /><br />Some of our adjacent low-income schools have ALO programs with no or very few children participating in them. Our school has about 15 eligible across all grade levels, and maybe just us APP eligible. After advocating for the solution that I believe in--high quality neighborhood access for everyone--I see how painfully out of synch it is with the realities of Seattle's resource distribution. Absolutely, the no-cost/easy/effective solutions should be standard issue, but I'm not sure that would be sufficient to meet the needs of these learners in the absence of critical mass and more deliberate attention. I had to come to terms with the fact that maybe we're more trouble than we're worth in this context. I agree that the ALO label is pointless--some schools without the label do this work well, and some with it clearly just have the label. Effective differentiation should be standard practice at every school, but systemwide changes would need to happen for that to be a viable reality. I'm genuinely heartbroken that we have to choose between the rich diversity and integration of our school and the credible assurance that our child will get the rigor she needs. Wanting those realities to be different won't help (I've tried that)--the only things that would help would be real money and real resources in the right places.<br /><br />--from the peripheryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57337171585471643992012-03-15T09:50:37.208-07:002012-03-15T09:50:37.208-07:00Dropping the meaningless ALO, turning Spectrum int...Dropping the meaningless ALO, turning Spectrum into more rigorous and structured alternative schools/programs, and keeping APP makes a lot of sense. And, yes, that should be combined with trying to teach all students at the maximum of their abilities in all classrooms.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65128332417407059352012-03-15T08:51:11.660-07:002012-03-15T08:51:11.660-07:00Bingo, drop the name.
AnnieBingo, drop the name.<br /><br />Annieannienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-92227817502442775922012-03-15T08:32:54.465-07:002012-03-15T08:32:54.465-07:00Again, why don't we put the principles of ALO ...Again, why don't we put the principles of ALO in place at all schools? ALO is something the district has at some schools and not others. Why? So the principal doesn't like it. Tell that principal they don't have a choice. You ought to be able to do ALO everywhere and then we won't have angry parents who don't have access. Do leveled reading groups everywhere. Do walk to math everywhere. That's all spectrum even is at some schools. These changes are all free, and should just happen as a matter of course. Get rid of the ALO name and have this be standard practice. <br /><br />-drop the nameAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48430634914134155102012-03-15T08:32:17.216-07:002012-03-15T08:32:17.216-07:00Hang on to your ideals. It's the stuff poets l...Hang on to your ideals. It's the stuff poets live for and allow me to sleep without nightmares. Otherwise...<br /><br />- reality bites!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20260473590179924462012-03-15T08:14:35.732-07:002012-03-15T08:14:35.732-07:00I am an APP parent. I have no hate just curious as...I am an APP parent. I have no hate just curious as to why the ideasof Emile is being dismissed so readily.Annienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-19769520645509066592012-03-15T08:10:27.281-07:002012-03-15T08:10:27.281-07:00Tired of the hate. Please if you are tired of the...Tired of the hate. Please if you are tired of the hate, then stop transferring it. I'm an APP parent and don't feel the hate. <br /><br />SPS parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35673103343545990492012-03-15T08:06:39.434-07:002012-03-15T08:06:39.434-07:00I have never understood the level of venom that so...I have never understood the level of venom that some throw at APP. APP gets the same funding as anyone else. It is just another alternative program, no different than the other alternative programs in the district. As an alternative program that costs nothing more, it is very popular and successful. Why attack it? Why try to destroy it?<br /><br />Honestly, I think your venom is misdirected. Why are you angry at a successful alternative program? Shouldn't we be creating more of these popular and successful alternative programs rather than trying to destroy them? Isn't it great that programs like this attract people to our public schools and engage them in our public schools?<br /><br />Rather than be angry at advanced learning, shouldn't you be angry at the (unusually high) 20% of Seattle parents who refuse to engage in or help Seattle Public Schools and go private instead? Shouldn't you be angry at the people trying to vote in charters and suck money out of the public schools? Don't you think your anger is misdirected?Tired of the hatenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-6477027705069390542012-03-15T07:22:08.507-07:002012-03-15T07:22:08.507-07:00So Charlie, why are you so dimissive of emile'...So Charlie, why are you so dimissive of emile's point? I would agree that there is a very high end of kids that needs 'special' above level teaching but really the top 12 or so percent?Annienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24046336333111936372012-03-15T07:14:55.625-07:002012-03-15T07:14:55.625-07:00Good point Emile. Now how to make sure that rigor...Good point Emile. Now how to make sure that rigor is there for all? That's the conundrum. It's far easier to make sure there is no rigor because that's the non-action and passive process, while providing rigor and depth is an active process. And labelling doesn't go away as long ast there is testing. So need to reconsider standardized testing because you can't get the schools, teachers, paernts or kids to ignore those numbers. <br /><br />-back to realityAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-88054025546229606312012-03-15T07:07:32.316-07:002012-03-15T07:07:32.316-07:00Emile is, of course, right.
So much for the theor...Emile is, of course, right.<br /><br />So much for the theory, let's get back to reality.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.com