tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post3825825855898441419..comments2024-03-28T23:38:22.511-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Garfield New Orleans Field Trip ReportMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15982051958609710622015-06-24T13:02:22.422-07:002015-06-24T13:02:22.422-07:00MS, I get your point and we all agree, the boy ass...MS, I get your point and we all agree, the boy assaulted these girls. But you are wrong in saying that anyone here is saying if it happened elsewhere previously, then it doesn't matter in New Orleans.<br /><br />It matters everywhere. But I am very confused number of times it happened before and during the trip. <br /><br />Again, it's one in a series of things that might have stopped this boy in this particular instance and it's human nature to wish just one of those things had happened.<br /><br />Your analogy does not work here because the girls did not consent (parallel to your analogy: take sips of vodka). <br /><br />I think until we have any further news, we'll end this discussion here. <br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36725433919070314602015-06-24T12:59:43.998-07:002015-06-24T12:59:43.998-07:00Jet City Mom-my husband is a Blanchet grad and I&#...Jet City Mom-my husband is a Blanchet grad and I've met many of his classmates and some from other classes as well. Most are highly successful and came from pretty successful families. I haven't met a one who was a problem studentn sent there after being expelled from another school. Nearly all chose Blanchet because of sports, academics, the theater program, etc. My husband and a few others were sent there by parents who didn't like the public schools. <br /><br />Are you saying that it was a school for "bad kids" and that SPS should have been suspicious about a kid who'd gone there? That really contradicts everything I've ever heard about the place.<br /><br />Blanchet Wife<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-37838609686475626022015-06-24T12:59:07.830-07:002015-06-24T12:59:07.830-07:00for gathering valid "evidence." the firs...for gathering valid "evidence." the first line of para 4 should say. WSDWGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60151213405151047872015-06-24T12:57:46.532-07:002015-06-24T12:57:46.532-07:00MS just provided the exact correlation-based linka...MS just provided the exact correlation-based linkage I complained about on the earlier thread, which was quickly dismissed by MW and others. Well folks, there it is again. <br /><br />(From MS, above) Teacher Breaks Rule-->Student Takes Advantage of Teacher's Misplaced Trust-->Two Girls Get Groped In Hotel Room.<br /><br />Is that enough linkage for you, MW? Who needs evidence when we have deductive reasoning? To hell with trials, we pretty much know what happened, so lets get on with the hanging, shall we?<br /><br />Far too many "educated" people in this community don't understand basic rules for gathering valid and espousing supportable conclusions. And I see it every day in these comments, so let me remind people of a very simple rule: What you think is meaningless, unless you have the evidence to prove it. Otherwise, you're simply an invalid, offering zero evidentiary value to the argument. <br /><br />It all reminds me of a great line in a Michelle Shocked song: "She lives in a world so small, she thinks she's seen it all."<br /><br />WSDWGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83829712148140964502015-06-24T12:52:48.980-07:002015-06-24T12:52:48.980-07:00HS Parent, you say "So by your logic - when k...HS Parent, you say "So by your logic - when kids do ANYTHING wrong when under the "guidance" of their teachers - its definitely the teacher's fault" No. What I said was that teachers should do their best to prevent misbehavior, and to not engage in their OWN misbehavior. And I do absolutely think that some kids get away with things when parents aren't paying close enough attention. That doesn't mean that kids are not responsible for their bad decisions, not at all. What an odd jump to make. Asking that chaperones and teachers simply do what they signed on to do means I think kids should have no responsibility? YOU'RE the one saying that, not me.<br /><br />Really? Really?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-21843824837180463262015-06-24T12:51:11.388-07:002015-06-24T12:51:11.388-07:00Exasperated,
If the girls hadn't been assaulte...Exasperated,<br />If the girls hadn't been assaulted in the hotel rooms I might agree with you, but the girls were indeed assaulted in a hotel room. Were they assaulted other places? Sure. But that doesn't detract from the particular incident in the hotel room that shouldn't have happened in the first place if protocol had been followed. You can't just detract from the situation and say, "well he groped them in Seattle so it shouldn't matter that it happened in New Orleans because the girls should have said something"... what? Two girls were assaulted in a hotel room by a boy who should NOT HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. We cannot ignore that. Maybe he would have done it someplace else or maybe he wouldn't have. It doesn't really matter. It all boils down to this: Under the supervision and knowledge of Burton, students were mixing in each others rooms against District policy. It was in this hotel room that two girls were assaulted.<br /><br />Here's an analogy.<br />Lets say that District policy mandates that students cannot drink alcohol on school trips (which it does). One particular student has a history of drinking on campus prior to the trip. They also sneak sips of Vodka on the bus ride during their field trip. Now lets say that the student brings alcohol into his hotel room with the knowledge of every chaperone and teacher on the field trip. Everyone knows yet for whatever reason doesn't bother to say anything. Later that same night, the student gets alcohol poisoning in his hotel room.<br /><br />Do the chaperones/teachers play any role/should they be punished? <br /><br />--MSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8231541507120061582015-06-24T12:03:55.661-07:002015-06-24T12:03:55.661-07:00MS - You are absolutely incorrect that the sexual ...MS - You are absolutely incorrect that the sexual misconduct would not have occurred if the student hadn't been in a hotel room. It happened at the prior high school. It continued at Garfield before the trip. It occurred at multiple locations on the trip, outside the room. And the misconduct that finally precipitated a report - occurred on a bus. Location was irrelevant. <br /><br />One thing that could have stopped this behavior was notification from the District to GHS that the student had been expelled for sexual misconduct. Info from the student's parents to the teacher/chaperones (about the past history and the purported need for meds) could have stopped it too. Earlier reports from the girls also could have stopped it. Following the room rule simply would have shifted the activity to another uncontrolled location.<br /><br />Correlation does not equal causation. This fundamental misunderstanding has allowed the District to keep focus on the teacher's rule violations, when she had the least ability of any of the players involved, to stop the long pattern of misbehavior.<br /><br />She broke rules. She didn't cause the student misconduct. The District should deliver a fair disciplinary decision for rule violations that did not cause the harm that occurred here.<br /><br />-ExasperatedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15667615400925920562015-06-24T11:43:20.490-07:002015-06-24T11:43:20.490-07:00HS Parent,
No one here is expecting for a teacher ...HS Parent,<br />No one here is expecting for a teacher to have special Spidey senses that detect when teenagers are up to mischief at all hours of the day. However, it's really common sense in this case. Had the boy not been in the girls room like district policies mandated, this likely would not have happened. There's no simpler way I can spell this out. <br /><br />Teacher Breaks Rule-->Student Takes Advantage of Teacher's Misplaced Trust-->Two Girls Get Groped In Hotel Room.<br /><br />Melissa, <br />I did read the entire report and the witness statements. Of course, it would have been nice if the girls had come forward before the trip but I think we're all forgetting how traumatic sexual assault can be, especially if it's someone you have to see every day in class. I noticed in the report that the boy told the girls it was okay for him to touch him that way because he was gay. It's very possible that they thought no one would have believed them or that his advances were "harmless" at first because of his sexual orientation.<br /><br />--MSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35519894453006667252015-06-24T10:01:02.768-07:002015-06-24T10:01:02.768-07:00Really, Really,
So by your logic - when kids do A...Really, Really,<br /><br />So by your logic - when kids do ANYTHING wrong when under the "guidance" of their teachers - its definitely the teacher's fault. So it follows that when teens drink, do drugs or have sex while not in school it is directly the parent's fault because they are under their parent's "guidance" when out of school.<br /><br />So much for kids taking any personal responsibility for any of their decisions at any time.<br /><br />That's not how we are raising our kids.<br /><br />-HS ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86668837882703414292015-06-24T09:56:04.127-07:002015-06-24T09:56:04.127-07:00Ah how times have changed..
This is from when the...Ah how times have changed..<br /><br />This is from when the choir first started. Interesting read <br /><br />http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/New-gospel-choir-is-seeking-a-spirit-of-support-1129691.php<br /><br />And to join the choir (pun intended) the woman needs to find a different school to work magic with a younger group. Whitman I think needs a choir director then the management and issues surrounding this might be less of a burden. I think that is some of the problem there her history with her kids does say there is a problem of respecting the boundaries and agreements made. She cannot even possibly inform parents that this behavior and such is not a good idea as it is a contract obligation not less a legal one.<br /><br />She should do her magic in a much more controlled and easier to manage group. Middle school kids have their own problems but they are not quite as hard to corral as people think. <br /><br />- ObservingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-32653695629053594602015-06-24T09:04:59.903-07:002015-06-24T09:04:59.903-07:00MS, did you read the whole report? This behavior ...MS, did you read the whole report? This behavior with this male student had been going on for awhile. It's unclear to me how much different the behavior they encountered on the trip was from what happened at school. So I agree with WSDAWG that everyone involved has a role in what happened. <br /><br />I am also baffled why Burton didn't tell the parents that they could meet to talk in the lobby and not the bar. <br /><br />But Charlie has pointed out the obvious.<br /><br />There are both RCW law and district policies that Ms. Burton did not follow. She had her own reasoning for doing so but that was not her call to make. <br /><br />Chaperones signed their names to a document on their responsibilities and behavior. If they did not want to follow those policies, they should not have gone on the trip. The trip is not about them - it's about a group of students under their care and guidance. <br /><br />And, unfortunately, the students took their cue from the adult behavior which led to the male student seizing on the opportunity. <br /><br />Lastly, the district had an employee who, like Burton, decided what she thought was the best course of action. I'm sure that like Burton, Ms. Miller was hired to use her own best judgment BUT within the law, policies and guidelines of their job. <br /><br />The District certainly has some liability here but if people go off-script from their job requirements, there's not much the District can do except investigate and then enforce any consequences for going off-script. <br /><br />It's not looking for scapegoats or throwing anyone under the bus - it's following thru on their own policies. <br /><br />And yes, two wrongs don't make a right. Superintendent Nyland certainly got away with a huge error in judgment (from someone so seasoned as a superintendent) when he signed the Gates grant without Board permission. But this Board as well as past Boards have shown themselves weak when it comes to holding senior management accountable. <br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83979650927704717072015-06-24T09:04:44.800-07:002015-06-24T09:04:44.800-07:00MS, did you read the whole report? This behavior ...MS, did you read the whole report? This behavior with this male student had been going on for awhile. It's unclear to me how much different the behavior they encountered on the trip was from what happened at school. So I agree with WSDAWG that everyone involved has a role in what happened. <br /><br />I am also baffled why Burton didn't tell the parents that they could meet to talk in the lobby and not the bar. <br /><br />But Charlie has pointed out the obvious.<br /><br />There are both RCW law and district policies that Ms. Burton did not follow. She had her own reasoning for doing so but that was not her call to make. <br /><br />Chaperones signed their names to a document on their responsibilities and behavior. If they did not want to follow those policies, they should not have gone on the trip. The trip is not about them - it's about a group of students under their care and guidance. <br /><br />And, unfortunately, the students took their cue from the adult behavior which led to the male student seizing on the opportunity. <br /><br />Lastly, the district had an employee who, like Burton, decided what she thought was the best course of action. I'm sure that like Burton, Ms. Miller was hired to use her own best judgment BUT within the law, policies and guidelines of their job. <br /><br />The District certainly has some liability here but if people go off-script from their job requirements, there's not much the District can do except investigate and then enforce any consequences for going off-script. <br /><br />It's not looking for scapegoats or throwing anyone under the bus - it's following thru on their own policies. <br /><br />And yes, two wrongs don't make a right. Superintendent Nyland certainly got away with a huge error in judgment (from someone so seasoned as a superintendent) when he signed the Gates grant without Board permission. But this Board as well as past Boards have shown themselves weak when it comes to holding senior management accountable. <br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38260207067827788502015-06-24T08:49:04.789-07:002015-06-24T08:49:04.789-07:00In my day, Blanchet was where kids went when they ...In my day, Blanchet was where kids went when they were expelled from public school.<br />With sexual assault cases in the forefront of news, including in SPS & Garfield, I would have expected school and district administration to be proactive regarding field trips & student safety.<br />What does it take?Jet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56970900348406263232015-06-24T08:46:46.317-07:002015-06-24T08:46:46.317-07:00Maureen - I think that it really isn't too muc...Maureen - I think that it really isn't too much to expect adults to follow the rules and policies they agreed to when they volunteered to do something. What expectations do you think are unreal?<br /><br />And for the kids? What expectations are unreal? I fully expect kids in high school to be able to follow rules on a school trip. <br /><br />Just a questionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65335198594267193532015-06-24T08:10:08.845-07:002015-06-24T08:10:08.845-07:00WSDWG, you're conflating two types of teen mis...WSDWG, you're conflating two types of teen misbehavior. When teens drink, do drugs, have sex, etc. on their own time, there is no way to place blame on their teachers, because the teachers aren't there. When teens do inappropriate things while under the supervision of those same teachers, teacher have a responsibility to know what's going on and to their best to prevent it.It appears that Ms. Burton DID do exactly that on past trips by sending the troublemakers home.<br /><br />On THIS trip, she and her fellow chaperones broke the rules THEMSELVES, setting a bad example-at minimum-for the students with them. At worst, the lax rule enforcement allowed kids to be in rooms where they didn't belong, possibly leading to some of the groping incidents. Melissa spelled it out quite clearly above, and Patrick explained it well too. But I get it-you're OK with with the drinking and the lax rules. But I'd bet money that if YOUR student had been groped or a tipsy chaperone wasn't able to properly supervise YOUR kid, you'd be calling for heads to roll. All most of us want is for ALL kids to be as safe as possible and have the same rules to follow as other kids on other trips, not what the teacher decides she gets to change on a whim.<br /><br />Really? Really?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85934412089212644382015-06-24T08:09:23.408-07:002015-06-24T08:09:23.408-07:00I agree with WSDWG. The expectations some of the p...I agree with WSDWG. The expectations some of the posters here have for students and adults are unreal. Maureennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47508220948926110252015-06-24T07:56:18.428-07:002015-06-24T07:56:18.428-07:00WSDWG, I don't expect Ms. Burton to be Superwo...WSDWG, I don't expect Ms. Burton to be Superwoman. It doesn't take Superwoman to not drink for five days, to discourage the chaperones from drinking, or to set up a place for students to socialize in the evenings that wasn't unsupervised in the students' rooms.<br />Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16260807460417787614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-143473453698465382015-06-24T07:07:06.803-07:002015-06-24T07:07:06.803-07:00If students break the rules on a field trip they a...If students break the rules on a field trip they are sent home. That seems to be what happened in the previous cases. It appears that the teacher followed through on responding to the misbehavior of students. I don't see the problem with that. She didn't set up flexible rules to allow students to buy & smoke marijuana with impunity. That is different from changing the rules to allow students to be in opposite gender rooms. <br /><br />-HS ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9404073490323290142015-06-24T00:35:15.560-07:002015-06-24T00:35:15.560-07:00One thing this discussion proves for certain is th...One thing this discussion proves for certain is that, no matter what happens to Ms. Burton, many parents have incredibly unrealistic expectations of their kids, the schools, and human capability. Burton isn's SuperWoman and can't be in three places at once, stop drug deals, graffiti or pot-smoking, and for that, she shouldn't be teaching? Really? Shall we fire teachers when girls get pregnant, boys crash cars, and both sexes get drunk on Friday nights? Or should we sue our pediatricians for not preventing our kids from drinking? Or their Driver's Ed instructor? Or the police? <br /><br />No matter what, it's never the actors or person in the mirror we hold responsible, is it? WSDWG<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-46325064900943955292015-06-23T23:06:05.507-07:002015-06-23T23:06:05.507-07:00Bystander
"Ms. Burton stated that she has t...Bystander <br /><br />"Ms. Burton stated that she has taken the GHS Choir on a number of overnight field trips to various cities throughout the United States and that on several of these trips students had behaved inappropriately. According to Ms. Burton, during a 2008 or 2009 field trip to Reno a couple of students were smoking marijuana on the last night of the trip. Although they were not arrested, the police scared the students. Ms. Burton said she notified GHS officials of this incident, which resulted in the students being suspended.During a choir field trip to New York City in 2010, a student was arrested for buying marijuana in Central Park. Ms. Burton said that the student was sent home. She notified GHS officials of the incident, which resulted in the student’s suspension. Finally, Ms. Burton said that during last year’s field trip to New York City, a student was arrested for placing graffiti on a<br />building."<br /><br />I think that this is where the real problem lies. Pretty much every single out of state field trip that Burton has been to in the last five years has resulted in legal issues of some sort whether it be sexual assault, drug use, or destruction of property. If the New Orleans field trip was an isolated incident, I might be more understanding but at some point we have to hold teachers accountable for the adults that they are. CLEARLY Burton has issues with leading and supervising children and I think that it's right for the District to think long and hard about terminating her. How many times does a student need to get arrested/hurt before we call her judgement and leadership abilities into question? Do we really want someone who apparently cannot supervise children in a position which requires her to do just that? What's next, hiring Chefs that don't know how to work a stove? She's a high school teacher. Period. If she shows a consistent pattern of being unable to handle youth then she should consider teaching at the college level where she won't be held accountable for these types of incidents.<br /><br />I'm not at all saying that Burton is a bad person or even a bad teacher. I've heard Garfield's choir perform several times and was quite impressed. A very talented and well trained bunch. However, parents need to be able to trust who is caring for their children at school and the District can't afford the backlash for a rebellious teacher.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55840221610833304652015-06-23T22:56:46.507-07:002015-06-23T22:56:46.507-07:00The district is to provide up to date docs in a PR...The district is to provide up to date docs in a PRR. Of course it's very plausible that, like Sped, departments are functioning without basic internal controls. I would not be surprised. <br /><br />Assignment to Interagency or dual assignment makes sense to me. That way the student stays on the radar. mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86793630452377107552015-06-23T22:53:36.131-07:002015-06-23T22:53:36.131-07:00"Wait, what? I don't know these girls but..."Wait, what? I don't know these girls but if Ms Burton is the sensitive and sympathetic teacher that her students say she is, I think the girls could have come to her at school any time or at any time on the trip."<br /><br />C'mon, none of us can honestly be so ignorant to think that all it takes is a friendly face for someone to report sexual assault. These were two teenage girls. Two children. They likely (and rightfully) felt a slew of emotions including embarrassment, shame, and self blame. There are grown women and men who can't find the courage to come forward after being assaulted. We shouldn't be questioning the girls on their timing, but rather be happy that these children finally put an end to their abuse that likely would have continued after the trip if they hadn't said something.<br /><br />Also, notice how in the report it never says that the girls told Burton. It says that they confided in a section leader and he took it upon himself to inform Burton after "cooling off." It's possible that the girls were not entirely comfortable telling Burton or that they never intended for the section leader to report the incident which I imagine makes this entire investigation very traumatic for them.<br /><br />-MSAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7131417900795932252015-06-23T22:42:26.797-07:002015-06-23T22:42:26.797-07:00A Different Handle, my kid doesn't even know f...A Different Handle, my kid doesn't even know for sure who the two girls are and he was on the trip. He said he could guess or probably figure it out, but neither he nor I thought it important to know who they are. Everything I have heard indicates that there has been no ostracizing of the girls. In fact, I have heard they are well supported by their classmates. That's just what I've heard though, if anyone who knows the girls or their parents have a different perspective, I defer to them. I do know that the parent group has made decisions that prioritized protection of the girls over trying to influence public opinion in favor of the teacher. ChoirMomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66730686690110844962015-06-23T22:27:57.113-07:002015-06-23T22:27:57.113-07:00"Sorry for the two girls, who were inappropri..."Sorry for the two girls, who were inappropriately touched, and didn't know how/when to report it."<br /><br />Wait, what? I don't know these girls but if Ms Burton is the sensitive and sympathetic teacher that her students say she is, I think the girls could have come to her at school any time or at any time on the trip. Now one reason the girls didn't may be because Burton told the students to be good or field trips might not happen any more. <br /><br />But the boy was being sexually suggestive and aggressive before the trip. As well, one girl did something inappropriate on the trip - with the boy in the room as well as others - so I'm a little confused about why she didn't say something sooner.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50171804523559761002015-06-23T22:26:08.998-07:002015-06-23T22:26:08.998-07:00mirmac1, I read those two documents you linked abo...mirmac1, I read those two documents you linked about enrollment procedures for students expelled from other schools. Those don't sound anything like the process outlined in the report! I find it bizarre that the procedure seems to call for students who have been expelled to automatically be enrolled in Interagency and a sanction placed on their records, full stop. I don't see anything there that gives leeway on that. Am I reading those wrong? I notice the documents are dated 2011, and you said they were provided to you 12/2014. Any chance there are more updated ones than those? Very puzzling. ChoirMomnoreply@blogger.com