tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post4083275868782548927..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Tuesday Open ThreadMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87174970783006806532012-04-12T15:43:11.482-07:002012-04-12T15:43:11.482-07:00Oh, Kathy, I wasn't blaming them. I just wonde...Oh, Kathy, I wasn't blaming them. I just wonder how robust one's conclusions can be when drawn from suspect data (i.e. the "results" from these tests). Cheers!Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25284661266147697332012-04-12T02:53:08.326-07:002012-04-12T02:53:08.326-07:00Maureen here is the excel spreadsheet for the Midd...Maureen here is the excel spreadsheet for the Middle School stats for EoCs that you wanted. You will need to download it.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.school-truth.com/MS..EoCandMSP.xls" rel="nofollow">http://www.school-truth.com/MS..EoCandMSP.xls</a><br /><br />This should run automatically by clicking the above link (I hope).<br /><br />Let me know if this download works or not.<br /><br />========<br />Only 3 schools put more than 50% of eighth graders into Algebra. Orca, TOPS, and Madrona each put about 90% of 8th graders into algebra.<br /><br />8th grade Algebra Pass rates for those three schools were:<br />44% Orca<br />24% Madrona<br />73% TOPS<br />District=> 88.1%<br />State => 82.0%<br /><br />8th grade MSP pass rates 2011 were:<br />19.2% Orca<br />35.6% Madrona<br />51.6% TOPS<br />District=> 62.3%<br />State => 51.0%<br /><br />7th grade MSP rates from 2010 were:<br />33.3% Orca<br />62.7% Madrona<br />87.9% TOPS<br />District=> 65.2%<br />State => 55.9%<br /><br />((MSP rates excluded students with No Score))<br /><br />and the SPS School Report cards have 98% of Madrona 8th graders as ready for high school math.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28162745043576908152012-04-11T23:35:41.656-07:002012-04-11T23:35:41.656-07:00you nailed it, enough already.you nailed it, enough already.mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55762519196110703022012-04-11T23:13:57.014-07:002012-04-11T23:13:57.014-07:00From Frank Greer to DeBell:
"Michael, Wanted...From Frank Greer to DeBell:<br /><br />"Michael, Wanted to share this note I sent to Kay…I understand from Jon Bridge that she is very upset about “you” going to the media…"<br /><br />By now, it is clear that DeBell works for the money boys. What<br />needs more scrutiny is "Kay's" relationship with "Jon" and Co.<br /><br />Why is she telling Jon, who is telling Frank, who is telling Michael that she is upset?<br /><br />Betty Patu was upset with DeBell, too, but you didn't read about it in these emails--Betty Patu didn't have a private discussion about board policy making and colleagues with Jon Bridge or Frank Greer. <br /><br />No, Patu was up front with it, as evidenced in this ST quote:<br /><br />"We've never had any problems with micromanaging," member Betty Patu said. "Everything was fine until Michael decided to write his own policy from his own personal perspective ... He's upset that Susan's leaving. That's why he wrote this."<br /><br />How much influence did Jon Bridge and Co. have on Kay Smith Blum's vote for TFA and the approval of the Creative Schools MOU (and against the Peaslee amendment for board oversight)? <br /><br />--enough alreadyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9215951133011561892012-04-11T22:28:27.506-07:002012-04-11T22:28:27.506-07:00Josh,
Consider test fatigue. 8th graders are exp...Josh,<br /><br />Consider test fatigue. 8th graders are expected to take end of year MAP, MSP and EOC. Any wonder these kids blow offf exams?Kathynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16757692050545320382012-04-11T15:59:46.129-07:002012-04-11T15:59:46.129-07:00Ask Sara Morris and Tim about the complete failure...Ask Sara Morris and Tim about the complete failure to deliver an appropriate math program to most eighth graders at Madrona K8, yet proclaiming that 98% are ready for high school math.<br /><br />But no one cares as politics is far more important than students lives or measuring actual results.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69057205933707793922012-04-11T15:09:20.126-07:002012-04-11T15:09:20.126-07:00Doesn't pushing students into algebra (when th...Doesn't pushing students into algebra (when they aren't ready) have a double negative effect - 1st, they miss out on solidifying skills prior to taking algebra, and 2nd, they have to take a higher level of math to meet minimum graduation requirements, which is doubly hard because maybe they weren't ready for algebra to begin with. <br /><br />Correlation is not causation...if studies show students that take algebra in 8th grade are more successful, it doesn't mean taking algebra in 8th grade will suddenly make students more successful. <br /><br />Then there's Mercer: <br />98% passing algebra EOC (n=61)<br />61% passing 8th grade MSP (n=139)<br />71% passing 7th grade MSP (n=182)<br /><br />...of course you're talking different math books.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-12423405842653442612012-04-11T13:00:07.492-07:002012-04-11T13:00:07.492-07:00Interesting how Sara Morris and Tim Burgess feel t...Interesting how Sara Morris and Tim Burgess feel they can call the shots...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/88927485" rel="nofollow">SPS/City emails</a>mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-73471571976569760882012-04-11T11:33:06.114-07:002012-04-11T11:33:06.114-07:00I am only about a third of the way to completing M...I am only about a third of the way to completing Maureen's task.<br /><br />But I found a really weird situation at Madrona K-8<br /><br />A really bizarre decision (maybe Tacoma thinks that putting all 8th graders in Algebra is a good idea; I do not.)<br /><br />In spring 2010 the 7th grade Madrona MSP math scores =><br /><br />Meeting Standard 32 61.5%<br /> <b>Level 4 (exceeds standard) 7 13.5%</b><br /> Level 3 (met standard) 24 46.2%<br /> Basic (met standard) 1 1.9%<br /> Not Meeting Standard 20 38.5%<br /> Level 2 (below standard) 8 15.4%<br /> Level 1 (well below standard) 11 21.2%<br /> No Score 1 1.9%<br /> <br />Meeting Standard excluding No Score 62.7%<br /> <br /> Total Enrollment 55 <br />====<br />So 7 students exceeded the 7th grade standard in 2010.... and for the next year in grade 8 we find that there were 46 students enrolled and 41 in algebra.<br /><br />10 passed algebra EoC and 16 passed the grade 8 EoC. ..... notice that for this cohort in "grade 7"<b><i> 62% passed the MSP </i></b>then in grade 8 for that cohort <b><i>35.6%</i></b> passed the MSP. Placing 89% of the cohort in Algebra generated an Algebra pass rate of <b>24%</b>.<br /><br />41 kids in Algebra<br />24 score well below standard<br />7 score below standard<br />8 meet standard<br />2 exceed standard <br /><br />Same 41 kids are in the 46 kids that take the 8th grade MSP<br /><b>Meeting Standard 16 34.8%<br /> Level 4 (exceeds standard) 3 6.5%<br /> Level 3 (met standard) 12 26.1%<br /> Basic (met standard) 1 2.2%</b><br /> Not Meeting Standard 30 65.2%<br /> Level 2 (below standard) 12 26.1%<br /> Level 1 (well below standard) 17 37.0%<br /> No Score 1 2.2% <br /><br />==========<br />This school and the district should be sued for misfeasance and malpractice. .... but no one cares.<br /><br />Madrona K8 demographics =><br />Low Income students = 81%<br />Black students = 75%dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-91737008420126194242012-04-11T10:13:12.229-07:002012-04-11T10:13:12.229-07:00Thanks for the clarification, Dan.
I can tell you...Thanks for the clarification, Dan.<br /><br />I can tell you that at least some of the kids at Pinehurst last year blew off the MSP - even one in my class of accelerated students, who is now in ninth grade and sailing through honors geometry, couldn't be bothered to try on the MSP and "flunked" it. I have to wonder how much the MSP really tracks ability, when there's no consequence for the kids who take it - or maybe, for kids who don't have a grown-up to go to bat for them, there ARE consequences? Maybe in ordinary circumstances that kid would be stuck in a regular ol' algebra class that s/he'd already taken, because s/he'd chosen to blow off the MSP?Josh Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17242600011474990770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27808063574781470192012-04-11T10:07:29.221-07:002012-04-11T10:07:29.221-07:00Maureen,
I'll get to work on your task. The ...Maureen,<br /><br />I'll get to work on your task. The numbers I reported were strictly for the cohorts performance as high school 9th graders. I did not report on any Eoc taken in grade 8 (but I will get to work on that).<br /><br />The 8th grade MSP covers a lot of different stuff than the Algebra EoC. It seems that in many cases similar groups of students score lower on the 8th grade MSP than the Algebra EoC.<br /><br />For All 9th graders taking an EoC in Spring 2011 =><br /><br />Totals for entering 9th graders => 3074 took EoCs and 1096 (35.7%) failed to meet standard with 607 (19.7%) well below standard<br /><br /><br />Algebra EoC for all 9th graders => 1994 took it and 933 (46.8%) failed to meet standard with 549 (27.5%) well below standard<br /><br />Geometry EoC for all 9th graders=> 1053 took it and 163 (15.5%) failed to meet standard with 58 (5.5%) well below standard<br /><br />The Geometry EoC only tests about half the Geometry standards.<br /><br />The Algebra EoC tests almost all the Algebra standards except for about 3 on quadratics.<br /><br />---<br />Here is what happened on 8th grade MSP<br /><br />Compare this with the 2010 8th grade MSP Math results:<br /><br />3081 were enrolled and 2921 took it and 1156 (39.6%) failed to meet standard with 627 (21.5%) well below standard and 33 (1.1%) no scores<br /><br />Here are the 2011 8th grade MSP Math results:<br /><br />3103 were enrolled and 3007 took it and 1154 (38.4%) failed to meet standard with 612 (20.4%) well below standard and 34 (1.1%) no scores<br /><br />========<br />Now I will see what kind of data I can find at individual middle and K8 schools for EoC results.dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66240975214876734472012-04-11T10:02:04.066-07:002012-04-11T10:02:04.066-07:00I thought perhaps the opt-outs/no scores were affe...I thought perhaps the opt-outs/no scores were affecting the reported pass rates, but no, it's not the case. JA, Pinehurst, Salmon Bay, South Shore, Tops, Broadview - OSPI shows "0" no scores. For those schools that do have some "no scores," the percentage passing is only affected by a few points.<br /><br />-looked it upAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79153321772936969232012-04-11T08:24:53.460-07:002012-04-11T08:24:53.460-07:00Dan, I thought we figured out that 'ready for ...Dan, I thought we figured out that 'ready for High School math' means that the kid passed 8th grade math? Also, could you put the EOC algebra actual pass rates (ie, the percent of kids who are in the 8th grade who passed the exam--not the percent who took algebra who passed the exam). I think that could show interesting differences between K-8s and comprehensive middle schools. I know at TOPS every 8th grader takes algebra (school isn't big enough to offer multiple courses so a decision was made to aim high). Not every kid passes the EOC, but a much larger percent do than would if those same kids had been tracked the way they would have been at WMS or HIMS. It would also be interesting to see how the opt out rate differs between schools. Those zeroes can add up.Maureenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18444916440000921599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20548777855057215812012-04-10T23:39:51.181-07:002012-04-10T23:39:51.181-07:00You might want to do a thread on teacher bargainin...You might want to do a thread on teacher bargaining rights and health care that is being voted on now by the state. It's not looking good.<br /><br />- concerned teacherAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62593793529434362312012-04-10T23:29:36.790-07:002012-04-10T23:29:36.790-07:00Salmon Bay almost always has a wait list for 6th g...Salmon Bay almost always has a wait list for 6th grade. The NSAP caused a bit of a blip because the letters did not explain options to people, but it has not been usual to not have a waiting list there. <br />We have generally had waiting lists at all grades. And this coming year will be completing an expansion increasing capacity at SB-- I think our school will be like 680 or something. <br />--SB parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9967229381838867652012-04-10T23:28:43.359-07:002012-04-10T23:28:43.359-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70288643422631394922012-04-10T23:05:03.674-07:002012-04-10T23:05:03.674-07:00I agree with Randi. The middle school at TOPS ser...I agree with Randi. The middle school at TOPS serves most children well. They do lose kids to APP each year as there is simply not enough staff to have different math classes at each grade level. Science is top notch - with a dedicated teacher who makes it fun. And it starts early - even in first grade, the students get two weeks of science with the middle school science teacher. He fosters a love of science from very early on.<br /><br />current TOPS parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50698917529788590382012-04-10T22:33:31.941-07:002012-04-10T22:33:31.941-07:00The TOPS middle school in my opinion is fabulous. ...The TOPS middle school in my opinion is fabulous. A group of very dedicated teachers who do a great job with most kids. You won't find a better science curriculum or teacher anywhere in the district. Unfortunately, Ballard is the only high school that recognizes that the TOPS kids are ready for sophomore science and lets them enroll in Biology if they don't want to be part of the Bio-Tech Academy. My two kids at Ballard (one ready to graduate) LOVE science because of their experience at TOPS.<br /><br />randiAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20580532156397081192012-04-10T17:49:16.645-07:002012-04-10T17:49:16.645-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58875361425677019822012-04-10T17:48:03.202-07:002012-04-10T17:48:03.202-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Sahilahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11610179287237833742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87564626472680665882012-04-10T17:47:33.594-07:002012-04-10T17:47:33.594-07:00Do K-8 (6-8)staffings emphasize generalists rather...Do K-8 (6-8)staffings emphasize generalists rather than specialists--like elementary classrooms?<br /><br />In other words, are there more non-math majors teaching math than in the 6-8 middle schools? Same with science? Are humanities majors overrepresented in K-8s?<br /><br />Do K-8 reading scores follow similar or different trends than the 6-8 schools?<br /><br />Thanks for the as-always critical information, Dan Dempsey. I realize that your point is the incosistency between HS readiness stats and MSP scores but I'm curious about the causes for the low MSP math scores at K-8s, too.<br /><br />--enough alreadyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-85555147795684507982012-04-10T17:24:20.043-07:002012-04-10T17:24:20.043-07:00Curious, Director Smith-Blum is pretty high on mu...Curious, Director Smith-Blum is pretty high on mushroom K-8s but only if the middle school level rose enough to allow more electives to make them more attractive. <br /><br />To my mind, K-8s should be option schools. As many readers have pointed out, most are not full and haven't been. TOPS is the exception and I think that may be their focus and not just that they are a K-8. It would be interesting to find out what their middle school is like and how they maintain students.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65049004764913731712012-04-10T17:20:09.149-07:002012-04-10T17:20:09.149-07:00One more thought -
One of the BEX options (now o...One more thought - <br /><br />One of the BEX options (now off the table?) was for mushroom K-8s. The data would make a strong case against more K-8s.<br /><br />-curious about the dataAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-36308125371192571292012-04-10T17:17:34.681-07:002012-04-10T17:17:34.681-07:00Dear Josh Hayes and A reader,
The individual scho...Dear Josh Hayes and A reader,<br /><br />The individual school data is from 2011 MSP and the school report cards that covered the 2010-2011 school year (that is the most recent available).<br /><br />I have no idea how Mark Teoh and the gang at REA come up with those "Ready for HS Math" numbers.<br /><br />Also does Orca k8 take the MSP seriously?dan dempseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15536720661510933983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47545257606780184012012-04-10T17:16:02.106-07:002012-04-10T17:16:02.106-07:00The number of students being tested at K-8s is muc...The number of students being tested at K-8s is much smaller than at the comprehensive middle schools - there were only 28 at Pinehurst - so how do you go about comparing? <br /><br />You have to ask why families choose K-8s over comprehensive middle schools, and why there are disproportionately fewer students passing the math MSP. Would the same students struggle more in a comprehensive middle school? You would think a smaller school would provide the opportunity for more intervention and support. Is that the case? <br /><br />-curious about the dataAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com