tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post4287444340525221820..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: 100 Black Parents Meeting on GarfieldMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger108125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-92049284702349460562016-08-24T09:16:51.647-07:002016-08-24T09:16:51.647-07:00I think this topic has been exhausted for now so I...I think this topic has been exhausted for now so I'll end it here.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9423636806373551712016-08-24T09:05:52.499-07:002016-08-24T09:05:52.499-07:00Psychologists that administer Weschler recommend t...Psychologists that administer Weschler recommend that students in the upper percentiles attend Seattle Country Day and Lakeside- and they do so for a reason.<br /><br />I'm more interested in hearing from an experienced psychologist in the field than someone that wants to dismantle advanced learning.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br />Another Namenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-72484570388602662782016-08-24T08:56:03.900-07:002016-08-24T08:56:03.900-07:00Clarification:
I can't imagine that FWIW has ...Clarification:<br /><br />I can't imagine that FWIW has full information and knows whether a child took CoagT or Weschler. He/she groups every child into the same boat.<br /><br /><br /> Another Namenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59633511909943946162016-08-24T08:52:31.292-07:002016-08-24T08:52:31.292-07:00I can't imagine FWIW has full knowledge of eac...I can't imagine FWIW has full knowledge of each child's test scores -in each area. I can't imagine that FWIW has no way of knowing whether or not a child took CoagT or Weschler.<br /><br />FWIW offers some useful information, but is on a crusade to dismantle advanced education.<br /><br />I'm still waiting FWIW to discuss needs of advanced learners. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Another Namenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79097900467881953682016-08-24T08:18:27.216-07:002016-08-24T08:18:27.216-07:00The single minded crusade of someone who has read ...The single minded crusade of someone who has read one study on the topic amuses me. <br /><br />It's WorthlessAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17469388233997776132016-08-24T02:47:52.350-07:002016-08-24T02:47:52.350-07:00"The district needs to clearly articulate wha..."The district needs to clearly articulate what is AL and what is not - program design, curriculum and acceptable variability (schools like Garfield should not be able to determine what AL is and is not)"<br /><br />Why shouldn't Garfield make a determination about AL when your own children's scores are invalid? You cannot dictate to schools what their AL program should look like until you lobby the district about having a program that honors testing protocols and basic statistical best practices.<br /><br />You cannot try to have purity in programming when the entire identification process is invalid. Your attempt to separate from those other kids who aren't up to par is invalid because some of those other kids should be in HCC and many of your children should not. Those are facts. <br /><br />Saying anything about Garfield at this point rings hollow. Your HCC program has no clothes.<br /><br />FWIWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-54305677801907014002016-08-23T19:31:55.609-07:002016-08-23T19:31:55.609-07:00Are those the right three things to doAre those the right three things to doCap hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10450461410619613339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17093201186193379762016-08-23T18:43:43.470-07:002016-08-23T18:43:43.470-07:00Thanks Cap Hill.
As to your list:
1. I have told...Thanks Cap Hill.<br /><br />As to your list:<br /><br />1. I have told the Board (and the district) for years that this needs to happen. That it has not speaks volumes about how much they truly care about finding these students - all of them - and meeting their needs. I think HCC is sop to parents and keeps them in the district along with their high test scores. <br /><br />From what I can see, only Directors Peters, Harris and Burke are even vaguely interested.<br /><br />What is troubling is that the Board thinks it okay to write policy/procedure about a program without clear definitions.<br /><br />2. Not sure when, if ever, that could happen. There is to be a work session this year but Director Geary said nothing would probably happen this year. No more task forces - the district doesn't care and the Board doesn't listen.<br /><br />3. Good luck with that. <br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49133329616928727832016-08-23T18:34:54.084-07:002016-08-23T18:34:54.084-07:00I find it amazing how many posts this blog gets on...I find it amazing how many posts this blog gets on Garfield Honors/HCC versus all other topics combined. Melissa, I think you could sell tickets. <br /><br />If all of the concerned, pragmatic parents were to contact their school board member, what are the three things you would have them ask for?<br /><br />As I read the above, I came up with these three:<br /><br />1. The district needs to clearly articulate what is AL and what is not - program design, curriculum and acceptable variability (schools like Garfield should not be able to determine what AL is and is not)<br />2. The district needs to assign a team to assess & recommend changes on intake & support systems with a stated goal range on program diversity (eg we think we are missing X,000 kids by having skewed testing)<br />3. Mandate a freeze on changes to AL programs for one school year to enable #1 above to happen <br /><br />There are intelligent people on both sides of the discussion. But the way the changes were made were just highly unprofessional. Cap HillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-80436009494882881142016-08-23T16:03:49.141-07:002016-08-23T16:03:49.141-07:00Lori, Charlie and I were on the first task force. ...Lori, Charlie and I were on the first task force. Did we discuss the use of Cogat? Only in broad terms especially around the issue of whether it was the best test to use because of possible cultural issues. Our task force was completely ignored and the district acted like it never existed. I gave up at that point.<br /><br />What we were supposed to suss out was highly restricted. I'm not even sure I remember what the second task force said.<br /><br />But the district never listens so it's pretty pointless. Look at what the did to FACMAC. <br /><br />Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-60436910469383365382016-08-23T15:21:49.264-07:002016-08-23T15:21:49.264-07:00FWIW, I've barely participated on this blog th...FWIW, I've barely participated on this blog this summer, and I'm not part of any effort that's fighting for or against what's happening at Garfield. It's certainly not up to me to decide what HCC parents should or should not be concentrating on!<br /><br />In 2012, though, I did post here and on the APP blog about the potential value of local norms and asked if the advanced learning task force at that time was considering them. During my student's tenure in elementary APP, there were actually 2 different district task forces on Advanced Learning! I have no idea if either discussed local norms or if they critically evaluated their use of CogAT. Maybe someone from those task forces could weigh in or be asked by Melissa or Charlie? <br /><br />I do get where you are coming from and agree on some points. HCC is a program that contains many gifted children. It does not contain all of them, nor are all of the HCC students truly outliers who cannot be served at their local schools. If you drew a Venn diagram, the circles for HCC and gifted would overlap, but not completely. So what's the answer? I don't know. I think that's what those two task forces were supposed to suss out!<br /><br />Having had a primary grade student whose asynchrony relative to age-mates was severe enough to require professional help and whose anxiety and depression lifted after going to Lowell, however, I do take the social and emotional needs of gifted children very seriously. I wish more parents would speak up about those issues, I wish there weren't stigma around talking about mental health, and I wish all of the teachers, Board members, and other parents who I shared my story with over the years would take it to heart and remember that there are families out there fighting for services just as much, and perhaps more, for their kid's mental health than academic need. Those are the HCC kids that I do worry about and whose needs I wish rose to the forefront in all of these conversations. Maybe in some future world, there will be a socio-emotional component to qualification for self-contained HCC. I've never really seen that in the literature, but it makes sense to me to figure out how to include it as a consideration.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07777580098975083499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-63057567680259791552016-08-23T15:18:20.732-07:002016-08-23T15:18:20.732-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16868304930449681912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70274295514825208352016-08-23T15:16:49.371-07:002016-08-23T15:16:49.371-07:00That is because HCC is not a gifted program. Some ...That is because HCC is not a gifted program. Some districts simply don't label their programs correctly, but others do intentionally try and create gifted programs, which involves a very different identifying and programming system.<br /><br />Notice how Lohman put the word gifted in quotes. His test measures talent, but he has made it clear in his writing that he knows how his test is distored for mis-labeling purposes.<br /><br />FWIWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57463867532397943482016-08-23T15:03:01.443-07:002016-08-23T15:03:01.443-07:00I will point out that I have never heard the distr...I will point out that I have never heard the district use the word "gifted" (unlike many other districts that do call their programs "Gifted and Talented.") Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44620575015654124912016-08-23T14:24:47.947-07:002016-08-23T14:24:47.947-07:00I'm not an expert, and that's the sad part...I'm not an expert, and that's the sad part. This is basic information.<br /><br />From the booklet you just referenced:<br /><br />Advantages of Local Norms<br />The primary limitation of national norms is that they do not take into account local variations in ability or achievement. Policies that require all students in a school system or state to attain the same level of excellence on a nationally normed test can be problematic: such criteria result in some schools without any students served by a talent development program and other schools in which a substantial portion of the student population is labeled “gifted.”<br /><br />FWIWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-11635585838842524082016-08-23T14:15:48.901-07:002016-08-23T14:15:48.901-07:00
There is no reason to believe that FWIW is any ty...<br />There is no reason to believe that FWIW is any type of an expert. <br /><br />http://www.shakopee.k12.mn.us/cms/lib07/MN01909221/Centricity/Domain/1643/CogAT%20Interpretation%20Guide.pdfAnother Namenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66173115837248898192016-08-23T13:54:55.153-07:002016-08-23T13:54:55.153-07:00"HC is different though. It's a designati..."HC is different though. It's a designation that indicates a different way of processing information and learning."<br /><br />This is incorrect. SPS HC testing is based entirely on academics/cognitive. You are defining gifted, which I have pointed out already is not what the HCC program in Seattle is about.<br /><br />Also, I continue to find it absolutely stunning that all of these well-educated HCC parents totally avoid and deny that the AUTHOR OF COGAT would not have qualified many of your children for HC because they are not considered highly capable by his own scoring definition. <br /><br />You are quibbling over whether there should be an Honors for All when, in fact, your entire program is based on an invalid scoring mechanism.<br /><br />This is a textbook edition of The Emperor Has No Clothes. Until the same people who are into protecting the purity of the program admit and lobby the district to actually score the test correctly, you have no credibility.<br /><br />These are the same people who jump to the attack when any district policy or nuance is violated.<br /><br />Yet, the test scoring is totally invalid and set up to allow your demographic to over-qualify. The district also allows multiple testings outside of school, which also creates biased results. Neighboring districts use 1 percent as a shortcut to remove the testing bias. They also do not allow outside testing because of the invalidity.<br /><br />Lori and others who are clearly statistically trained, what about concentrating on this rather than talking about how the district is losing these "bright kids" to private schools? Many of them couldn't have qualified on their own merits. Well prepared for school? Plenty of enrichment? Sure. Academic savants? Until the scoring is valid, we can't say. <br /><br />Lynn, there are plenty of students who are not in HCC who should have qualified. The proof: Rainier Scholars. BTW, are you lobbying the district to start using the CogAT author's testing protocol instead of one that creates a proven bias toward your demographic? Are you willing to get your test results rescored to see if they were invalid results? You have focused on every detail for years to protect HCC but have remained strangely silent about this huge elephant in the room.<br /><br />All of you would be screaming to the school board and the media if these invalid results did not absolutely favor your children. Whatever you say about protecting this program rings hollow with no credibility as long as you continue to deny basic testing invalidity.<br /><br />FWIWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-44851240698121455942016-08-23T12:36:49.571-07:002016-08-23T12:36:49.571-07:00Dear Jet City,
Thank you for your post about Mr. ...Dear Jet City,<br /><br />Thank you for your post about Mr. Joseph Bland. He was a beautiful person and one of the finest educators in every sense of the word, that I have ever known.Carol Simmonsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34531989987956011072016-08-23T12:07:41.912-07:002016-08-23T12:07:41.912-07:00Curious, I'm not sure I understand your questi...Curious, I'm not sure I understand your question but if you are asking if there are gifted kids across all races, yes, there is. And we aren't finding them and serving them. Honors for All may or may not be the way to find them. I personally think there are better ways but again, is this about more kids of color having higher level classes or having fewer mostly white/Asian classes? I don't know.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-48525950698508065132016-08-23T11:52:58.414-07:002016-08-23T11:52:58.414-07:00There isn't evidence because evidence requires...There isn't evidence because evidence requires data... which comes from testing. Sure, sometimes HC students get missed, maybe because they opt out of testing, they simply don't know about the test, or they have a bad CogAT day (because, yes, district testing is flawed). Catching those missed students is one way to increase diversity in the program. That's why access to screening is important, and one-on-one individual tests are valuable as a second instrument when parents or teachers feel the first result isn't representative of their child's ability. <br /><br />Also keep in mind that HC doesn't mean bright kids who have the potential to do school well. I do believe Honors for All will identify more of those bright children and will keep them from falling through the cracks. HC is different though. It's a designation that indicates a different way of processing information and learning. The state has determined that these children need certain interventions in education. Honors was one way Garfield accommodated these students; it is unclear if Honors for All will end up being an appropriate accommodation. <br /><br />2HCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39055886631538010122016-08-23T11:18:42.045-07:002016-08-23T11:18:42.045-07:00But the cognitive testing by the district is flawe...But the cognitive testing by the district is flawed, as multiple posters have pointed out....<br />-Capitolhill ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67038515036544023292016-08-23T11:11:01.975-07:002016-08-23T11:11:01.975-07:00No there is no evidence that untested students are...No there is no evidence that untested students are highly capable. Students cannot be determined to be highly capable unless they participate in cognitive testing administered by the district. <br /><br /><br />Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-76418998343446050262016-08-23T10:25:55.111-07:002016-08-23T10:25:55.111-07:00Lynn, is there any evidence that untested student...Lynn, is there any evidence that untested students are also highly capable? <br /><br />Curious Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56337634317284498132016-08-23T10:14:05.228-07:002016-08-23T10:14:05.228-07:00Capitolhill Parent,
There are very few schools in...Capitolhill Parent,<br /><br />There are very few schools in Seattle that serve students with as wide a range of academic achievement as Garfield and do not offer separate honors classes. These schools are enrolling tiny numbers of highly capable students. <br /><br />2015-16 Enrollment<br /><br />Chief Sealth 10 HC students<br />Franklin 7 HC students<br />Nathan Hale 18 HC students<br /><br />Did your children attend one of these schools or a school that enrolls an homogenous student body? Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22337967934766976432016-08-23T08:31:50.845-07:002016-08-23T08:31:50.845-07:00I hope we can all support increased access to acad...I hope we can all support increased access to academic rigor, enrichment opportunities, and a welcoming/supportive atmosphere at GHS. Some people have written about how they won't send their kids to GHS because of Honors for All. For my family, the opposite is true. We visited GHS, found the school within a school atmosphere toxic, and chose to send our kid elsewhere. The proposed changes and Honors for All at GHS would bring us back to our neighborhood school. -Capitolhill Parent<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com