tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post4537620836422572818..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Asking about Advanced Learning and Highly Capable IssuesMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-92224123277515790702016-02-09T01:56:44.654-08:002016-02-09T01:56:44.654-08:00Advance learning is better habit if you want stand...Advance learning is better habit if you want stand on first number in the class and this habit also impress to teacher thanks for share it <a href="http://www.paraphrasetool.info/" rel="nofollow">automatic paraphraser</a> .Allen jeleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312119051975318074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45355869244325083322015-12-22T06:58:11.124-08:002015-12-22T06:58:11.124-08:00I have no doubt that there are some families that ...I have no doubt that there are some families that want their child to be in HCC so reasons other than academics, but the bulk of HCC families that I have known are only motivated by their child's best interest. Nearly every HCC family I have met has said that they wished that their child's academic needs could have been met in their neighborhood school - using those very words. That would have been their first choice over HCC. They are not looking for a brand but to keep their child happy and motivated in school.<br /><br />We can talk about the others, the few, but let's never think that they are representative of the group.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34470667483943441022015-12-18T12:17:33.774-08:002015-12-18T12:17:33.774-08:00I wouldnt call it fear, but a mentality that drive...I wouldnt call it fear, but a mentality that drives some towards status objects.<br />It's not really about the education for those folks when you get to post high school, but towards the perception that you must have a brand that will impress the relatives in Dubuque or Shanghai.<br />Then they get bent out of shape because the most competitive schools only offer need based aid, and THEY determine need.Jet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-52467882637032719722015-12-17T15:26:20.366-08:002015-12-17T15:26:20.366-08:00There are and will be outliers tested into HCC. Th...There are and will be outliers tested into HCC. This is true in any G&T programs. You'll find them in Bellevue PRISM too and in the best private schools. There's a handful of 6-7th graders able to take college calculus. Some of them are lucky and have supportive parents and educators who will find ways for them to take college level classes at local 4 yr uni while still in MS/HS or get into programs like EEP. There's a limit to what traditional K-12 school can accommodate. Most of the kids in these G&T programs aren't like that. Within HCC now, there's such a wide range, perhaps too wide. In the gen ed, you also have kids who are stand outs, but only in one domain. By MS, at least with math, they might get a stab at more advanced classes if they meet the achievement criteria (some though won't because they are asynchronous and already on a far different tracking trajectory with school counselors). <br /><br />As for Julliette's postings, Seattle isn't like NYC, Silicon Valley, or DC area in the G &T race, but it's showing gains. It's really not a G&T race, but a get into top-tier college race which starts awfully early these days. There's fear driving this engine. <br /><br />another parent <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15554706547926156452015-12-17T13:30:49.599-08:002015-12-17T13:30:49.599-08:00@juliette, this ain't NYC. I think your percep...@juliette, this ain't NYC. I think your perception of how much test prep there is here is way off. Like Lynn said, the payoff for all that work isn't very big. And with multiple opportunities to test in along the way, it's not high stakes. When it comes to adequately serving our kids, test prep is very low on the list of concerns.<br /><br />P=HAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41195122097270664762015-12-17T12:29:51.308-08:002015-12-17T12:29:51.308-08:00I think the craziness of NYC preschool test prep c...I think the craziness of NYC preschool test prep can be traced to the limited number of seats available in their gifted programs. If a child isn't identified and placed for kindergarten, they are out of luck for the rest of elementary school. Fortunately, our district guarantees placement for every child identified by the seventh grade. <br /><br />Do you teach highly capable children or are your own children receiving services? I ask because I don't believe your vision of math and reading drills and CogAT test prep classes for preschoolers is at all realistic in this area. Who would bother? The program isn't some super-enriched private-school-like program that every kid would benefit from.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-25536536182632148932015-12-17T11:44:32.466-08:002015-12-17T11:44:32.466-08:00Thank-you P=H for the thoughtful reply.
I think t...Thank-you P=H for the thoughtful reply.<br /><br />I think the problem is parents who study up their own kids to get them into the HCC.<br /><br />The district does them a disservice by allowing such a large program that appears to offer benefits to any kid who can make the cut. If you read anything about NYC's G&T program, it's appalling what parents do to get their kids in, believing it's a ticket to success. It starts with intense academics in preschool and through middle school aiming for a high enough score on the SHSAT to gain entry into the city's gifted high schools. This academic work is done either at home or at special private academies and summer camps.<br /><br />I would love to see a small program full of naturally high IQ kids, but our HCC is looking more and more like the one in NYC.<br /><br />Here's a story about prepping 4 year olds and some sample test prep,<br /><br />http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2012/10/19/new-york-city-gifted-and-talented-exam-sample-questions/<br /><br />jullietteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-17551538872842542092015-12-17T10:33:45.025-08:002015-12-17T10:33:45.025-08:00Momof2, a good grade school friend of my daughters...Momof2, a good grade school friend of my daughters was in the Eep program when Lakeside wasnt meeting her needs, she went on to double major at UW in Physics & Astronomy with minor in Russian.<br />However we decided to keep our daughter in a private school that wasnt necessarily for highly gifted kids, it worked out fine.<br />Im wondering about the tests the district uses to identify children as highly capable. I do not believe they were designed for that purpose. While my daughter was tested as being in the 0.03 % of the population using intelligence testing administered by Nancy Robinson, she did not qualify for any enrichment education in Seattle public schools using their chosen methods.<br />Makes me wonder about all the other kids who are highly capable but stuck in classrooms where they are not challenged.<br />Jet City momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804841958585043967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-53581113104287532015-12-17T10:27:56.068-08:002015-12-17T10:27:56.068-08:00juliette, you make some interesting leaps there.
...juliette, you make some interesting leaps there.<br /><br />The articles you linked to are focused on the difference between "academic" (direct instruction) vs. play-based preschools and kindergarten. This is NOT the same thing as HCC/Spectrum vs. gen ed. For one, the academic approaches between the various programs aren't that different. And second, these programs don't affect pre-K and K level students. <br /><br />Your overall point seems to be that parents should chill out, and not worry so much about getting their children into advanced academic programs--just let them play, so they can develop their social skills! That doesn't make sense in the context of SPS. Gen Ed programs are not any more play-based than HCC or Spectrum, so kids in either have opportunities to develop their social skills. Highly gifted kids placed in gen en environments, however, don't often get all those nifty social development opportunities you might expect. Sure, they might learn to "deal with other students of different abilities," but they are a lot less likely to develop good friendships with them, or to be understood by them. Highly gifted kids are often the outcasts, not able to relate to their age peers. Gifted programming gives them access to intellectual peers, and helps them avoid those socialization problems you fear. Extracurricular activities, and just living in the world, ensures exposure to more typically developing peers as well. They are not in danger of thinking everyone is as smart as they are, believe me. They are very aware that they are different.<br /><br />Even if there were data showing that kids who participate in HCC/Spectrum have more social development problems than those in gen ed, it would be a huge leap to assume that HCC or Spectrum self-contained classrooms cause those outcomes. A more likely explanation would be that kids who enter advanced learning programs have a higher prevalence of Asperger's, since the prevalence of giftedness is higher in the Asperger's population than the general population. <br /><br />But your suggestion that kids in gifted programs are socially doomed? Talk about a leap! While I'm not a fan of test prep for gifted program entrance exams (although in some cases it might make sense), doing a bit of test prep is a far cry from putting a kid through two years of academics-focused pre-K and K instead of play-based--which is what the study looked at. I doubt a little test prep is going to do anyone irreparable harm, and since the test results don't have any impact on whether they end up in a play-based or an academic program in the future, that "heavy price" you worry about will likely not come to pass. Or at least not for AL kids more than anyone else in SPS. Phew.<br /><br />Now none of this is to say that I oppose play-based preschool. I think it's great, and can be very intellectually stimulating and educational. I agree with the article that focusing on academics before kids are intellectually ready probably doesn't make a lot of sense. But in the context of gifted ed, this ignores the fact that many of these kids ARE intellectually ready at a very early age. They can have very deep, complex and intuitive understanding of topics of interest to them, and can be driven by an intense desire to know more about them. In fact, that's one of the common characteristics of gifted kids! Which is all to say, it's not about pushing them to learn--it's more about allowing them that opportunity. You're completely misapplying the research here, apparently to fit your own biases. <br /><br />Parenting=HardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-34355301149461226282015-12-17T09:45:31.090-08:002015-12-17T09:45:31.090-08:00I keep seeing discussions (juliette etc.) about pa...I keep seeing discussions (juliette etc.) about parents who prep their kids to get into HCC. I agree that that's a bad thing and can lead to burn-out for the children as well as inappropriate placement into HCC. I don't doubt that that happens with some children.<br /><br />But most of the kids in HCC are self-motivated learners who needed very little pushing from their parents - especially in preschool and early elementary. For example my son was constantly asking about how words were spelled before he could read - at age 4. He asked many, many questions about the concept of infinity at age 5. He was very interested in the number of atoms in a molecule - at age 6. He read children's encyclopedias back-to-back in early elementary. When a 2nd grade teacher discussed energy in his Spectrum class, he wanted to talk about nuclear fusion vs. fission. <br /><br />And my son is not the prodigy that some of his HCC classmates are - like the 1st grader who loved reading the Census book for all the numerical facts in it. That boy taught himself high school math in early middle school, since he could only take Algebra 1 in 6th grade in the HCC program. He's now starting at the UW in 8th grade.<br /><br />There are lots of kids in the HCC program precisely because they are outliers in a neighborhood school - the kids who want to talk about complex math, science or literature in early elementary, but can't find any friends who want to do that. There are many stories of parents who were heartbroken to see their kids flounder at their neighborhood school with no friends and totally bored. Then going to the HCC program, their child found friends who appreciated similar (quirky) interests, found teachers who understood them and taught them at their level, and were finally looking forward to going to school.<br /><br />Momof2<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-90686861006718998692015-12-17T08:33:22.214-08:002015-12-17T08:33:22.214-08:00Sheesh, I was also taken aback by the stuff about ...Sheesh, I was also taken aback by the stuff about unschooling, I'd never heard of that and it is pretty radical. The author references another article he wrote:<br /><br />https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201505/early-academic-training-produces-long-term-harm<br /><br />which addresses early academics vs. play more directly with studies out of Germany in the 70's and a good study from the U.S. published in 1967 regarding the effects of early academics on later success among poor children. Pretty shocking stuff.<br />Kids who were fed academics rather than play in pre-school and kindergarten were substantially more likely to have behavioral problems later in life, including problems with criminal justice.<br /><br />It cites studies showing kids taught to read and do math early lose interest later in life, they don't have the context to incorporate reading and number sense into their lives yet and they never find the spark that kids who develop their social skills first do.<br /><br />You can poo-poo the research, but I think we've all seen kids who were reading strong in K or were studied up in numbers in pre-school, start to fade by 4th or 5th grade and lose interest in academics and display social difficulties.<br /><br />When I read stories about parents in NYC schools cramming their kids with test prep to get them into the Gifted and Talented schools, it makes me shudder for the children and I hope we aren't fostering the same kind of race to achieve what is ultimately counter-productive.<br /><br />I know there's been chatter about CoGAT prep for kinders to get them into HCC, but at what cost? These kids are going to pay a heavy price for it later.<br /><br />jullietteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-24124842528739593702015-12-17T07:38:57.852-08:002015-12-17T07:38:57.852-08:00...showing that too great an emphasis on academics...<i>...showing that too great an emphasis on academics at an early age does substantial harm to student's future intellectual life.</i><br /><br />Really? Substantial harm?<br /><br />If you read the linked article (and its comments), it seems to be promoting unschooling. Sure, unschooling proponents think structured academics are bad. It's hard to take the article seriously when it offers evidence from a 1930's experiment and the Sudbury School in MA. Placing value on academics (the primary purpose of school) does not necessarily mean socialization gets forgotten or ignored.<br /><br />-sheeshAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-3068473664331234382015-12-16T22:48:13.643-08:002015-12-16T22:48:13.643-08:00As Charlie pointed out, how can the same program d...As Charlie pointed out, how can the same program design work for all schools?<br />Self-contained Spectrum doesn't work because you can end up with waitlists. Schools with grades of 50% Spectrum run into the concentration of IEP kids under self-contained. <br /><br />Clustering is pretty flexible and walk-to's can be great, but a school with not enough kids who are able to fill a year ahead math class are going to need something different, so site based makes a lot of sense.<br /><br />Yes, there should be guidelines and yes, schools need to held accountable for keeping advanced kids on track and improving, as they should be for every single kid.<br /><br />But each school is different and delivery needs to flexible.<br /><br />I think self-contained classrooms at a neighborhood school are horrible for kid's self-image, in or out of the program. Granted, it's hard to have multiple vocab lists in a classroom, but I've seen it done well. Self-contained does give kids a more competitive environment and a place to shine without fear of being a show-off, but a good teacher can provide kids challenging work in a blended class and the social benefits of learning how to deal with other students of different abilities is immeasurable.<br /><br />I think many parents get too obsessed with academics and forget about socialization. Kids need enough work to keep them busy and develop intellectual skills. Someone posted an article, here it is:<br /><br />https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201506/how-early-academic-training-retards-intellectual-development<br /><br />showing that too great an emphasis on academics at an early age does substantial harm to student's future intellectual life.<br /><br />The district needs to be equitable to all students, regardless of ability. They should all reach as much of their potential as possible.<br /><br />julliette<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51159864819954906772015-12-16T16:40:48.196-08:002015-12-16T16:40:48.196-08:00Ben must be new. Who in the district listens to t...Ben must be new. Who in the district listens to the parents?<br /><br />I agree that the principal deciding AL delivery models is a terrible idea. Many principals and teachers don't "believe" there is a need to any type of AL. While there are still people in education thnk that there are children who don't deserve to be educated, we need strict, top-down rules so that all kids can get served.<br /><br />-romeoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-15831133116337558712015-12-16T16:35:09.031-08:002015-12-16T16:35:09.031-08:00Isn't site based decision making what contribu...Isn't site based decision making what contributed to the demise of Spectrum in the first place (with HCC not far behind?)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61008073612144777732015-12-16T16:16:24.115-08:002015-12-16T16:16:24.115-08:00Site-based decision making is not equitable when f...Site-based decision making is not equitable when families can't choose their school. Assignment based on address must be accompanied by a standard curriculum and service delivery method. There should be a limited number of allowable delivery methods and the method used in each school should be determined based on the number of children working above grade level in each grade.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-62577234982495622162015-12-16T13:03:41.185-08:002015-12-16T13:03:41.185-08:00You nailed it, they need site-based decision makin...You nailed it, they need site-based decision making. Somebody has to make the call and that's the principal. They should listen to all parties, staff,parents, maybe students, get some sunshine on the issue and then make the call.<br /><br />Maybe more explicit info a school's website would help, too.<br /><br />BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8145069548844259142015-12-16T11:52:30.854-08:002015-12-16T11:52:30.854-08:00This is the central question: if we're not goi...This is the central question: if we're not going to have self-contained Spectrum classes - and we aren't - then how do these children get served? Or don't they?<br /><br />Historically the answer was to promise, in marketing materials and official reports, that the teachers will differentiate instruction in the general education classroom. But in the real world the teachers do little or no differentiation. That's simply unacceptable.<br /><br />Currently the answer is to promise that MTSS will somehow magically translate into differentiated instruction. This is not in evidence. First of all, the District timeline for MTSS implementation is in year five of a three-year plan with about six years to go. We're all supposed to accept the total absence of service while they figure it out. It's unclear how, even three years from now, MTSS will perform this trick. There has never been a coherent explanation of how, exactly, MTSS allows a teacher to provide and manage differentiation when they have never had the time, energy, or resources to do so in the past. And, with MTSS, teachers will actually have to spend a significant part of their time analyzing data. So rather than providing teachers with more time, MTSS will take time away from teachers. We're all supposed to believe that MTSS is some kind of magic wand that you wave over the classroom to provide differentiated instruction, but we're never told how that will happen or what the teachers will do differently.<br /><br />We need a new answer.<br /><br />First the District needs to define Spectrum/ALO. They need to state a coherent mission for the program. They need to identify the students it will serve. They need to write a curriculum for it. They need to set a limited menu of delivery methods. It's just shameful that this work has not been done. It has been promised, repeatedly, for years.<br /><br />Second, the District needs to confirm that the schools are actually doing it right. They need to confirm that the schools are identifying the students, teaching them the curriculum, and using an approved delivery method. It's just shameful that this work hasn't been done.<br /><br />Then the District needs to evaluate the effectiveness of these programs. You know, as Board Policy requires. It's shameful that this work hasn't been done.<br /><br />Given that none of this work has been done, it kinda makes you wonder what the manager of Advanced Learning does. What is taking up 40 hours a week that is more urgent and more important than this? What does it mean to manage advanced learning if you aren't doing these basic tasks? The fact is that all of the focus in Advanced Learning is on testing kids for eligibility and worrying about how disproportionate the outcomes are. The quickest, cheapest, and best way to scrape that off the manager's plate is to allow families to self-select.<br /><br />Providing some students with a deeper, broader, faster, farther curriculum in a general education classroom is enough of a challenge that the district and the schools need to describe how they will accomplish it.<br /><br />It is not enough for them to simply say that they will.<br /><br />The answer will not be the same in every school. We need a set of delivery method options. What works in a school in which 17 of 30 classroom students are in the program will not necessarily work in a school in which only 4 of 30 classroom students are in the program. I don't know what the solution will be for each school. That's up to the district and the school communities to determine for themselves. But doing nothing is not acceptable.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-59818430134388421202015-12-15T22:27:02.844-08:002015-12-15T22:27:02.844-08:00Thanks for the earlier responses. Regarding skippi...Thanks for the earlier responses. Regarding skipping grades, I witnessed a bit of that growing up. Even if one can handle the work, there's a fair bit of social messiness when you hit the hormonal years and people start dating. A 12-year-old and a 14-year-old are on pretty different pages there. <br /><br />-New Mom Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-67854087390649350932015-12-15T20:18:09.306-08:002015-12-15T20:18:09.306-08:00Grade skipping is what districts do when they can&...Grade skipping is what districts do when they can't have services like HCC. It's more of a last resort option. While a child may be academically ahead, they may be right at age level, or below, when it comes to other skills (handwriting comes to mind). They may not have the maturity to cover content meant for older students. The APP program used to stress that they provided academic challenge that was still developmentally appropriate. <br /><br />aackAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-82034404553259817132015-12-15T19:53:25.220-08:002015-12-15T19:53:25.220-08:00Or sending 9-year-olds to middle school.
--JvAOr sending 9-year-olds to middle school. <br /><br />--JvAAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-50126395339090365522015-12-15T19:37:03.482-08:002015-12-15T19:37:03.482-08:00While grade skipping can work for some children, t...While grade skipping can work for some children, there are disadvantages to it. A gifted student learns at a faster than typical pace - so a one year acceleration might work for awhile, but often another is required. I believe most parents would prefer to have their children graduate at 17 or 18 rather than 15 or 16. The advantage of a district as large as Seattle is that we can group children with students their own age to receive accelerated instruction without setting them up to graduate early.Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84801067828169338942015-12-15T18:25:17.104-08:002015-12-15T18:25:17.104-08:00I have said this many times, but maybe now it fits...I have said this many times, but maybe now it fits the circumstances better: We need to look at grade-skipping for elementary kids who are working 1-2 years ahead. It's cost-neutral and can be implemented in any school. It could even be automatic (with opt-out) for kids who score well above proficient levels for the next grade. <br /><br />I would then make HCC based purely on potential, a lot smaller, and more geared to quirky outliers and 2E.<br /><br />TechyMomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04650916001250022778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-86873031303781363622015-12-15T17:01:53.411-08:002015-12-15T17:01:53.411-08:00New Mom,also "Honors" is a bit of a dirt...New Mom,also "Honors" is a bit of a dirty word. <br /><br />There's this mindset that it's fine if a child has talent in music or athletics but tell someone your child is smart and you are in trouble. I have no idea why this is because when I was growing up being smart was a good thing. Apparently, if you think your kid is smart, then, to others, that means you think their kid is dumb. (Which is not true.)<br /><br />I forgot I have these other interesting e-mails on AL. Here they come.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-10267699027221407592015-12-15T14:45:19.979-08:002015-12-15T14:45:19.979-08:00@about time (or @enough already?), the district q...@about time (or @enough already?), the district quietly counseled out students from APP before changes to state law. It is true that once a student qualifies for HCC in SPS, they no longer need to retest if they remain with the district. It didn't used to be. Isn't that a good change? It saves district resources and unnecessary testing.<br /><br />@about time also suggested, <i>Gerrymandering boundaries and having open option schools is what most progressive districts do in order to promote fairness.</i><br /><br />Placement of HCC at JAMS? Garfield? IBX at Ingraham? APP at Thurgood Marshall? The APP/HCC cohort has historically had a low FRL rate compared to the district average. The district has done its fair share of manipulating the demographic balance of schools through the placement of APP/HCC students. <br /><br />@al realist said, "do i expect the high school level advanced learning pathway to become moot in the next 3 years? yes. see above. kids will go to their home high schools and take ap classes there."<br />Well, except there is little room at schools like Ballard and Roosevelt for students to return to their neighborhood school. <br /><br />another realistAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com