tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post4635128108633771581..comments2024-03-27T20:01:11.889-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: High School Teachers on Administrative LeaveMelissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-51711921422130713532015-06-07T12:10:22.614-07:002015-06-07T12:10:22.614-07:00�� Sorry, reposted because forgot to sign
I used ...�� Sorry, reposted because forgot to sign<br /><br />I used to volunteer for almost all the field trips, this last year I haven't gone on any. To place the blame on teachers when things happen due to TEENAGERS breaking rules is unrealistic and unfair. I remember my teen years VERY WELL, and there is NO WAY that teachers and chaperones can prevent kids breaking rules and doing something stupid and unsafe 24/7, no matter how vigilant and conscientious they are. Most teems NEVER think of consequences; they are extremely impulsive and teen group dynamics usually push them into more risky and furtive behaviors than they would attempt alone. I went to a parochial ALL GIRLS school, the nuns had GOD to back them up. Yet some of the things we did then make me cringe and think "but for the grace of God" we didn't get badly hurt whenever I think back. And my friends and I were valedictorians, athletes, top musicians, student government types who seemed matured and thoughtful, squeaky clean and obedient; and so we were, but not always.<br /><br />Can't help but think those who believe their kids can be protected completely on field trips if the teachers follow all the rules have forgotten completely their teen years.<br />As I'm only a parent and still not willing to take the risk of chaperoning and being blamed, I think all teachers should refuse to take kids on field trips unless they aren't blame for kids' behavior when they're away from home and are in a gaggle of self absorbed, inexperienced and impulsive teens.<br /><br />CCA<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-8881376495500240112015-06-07T12:05:01.692-07:002015-06-07T12:05:01.692-07:00I used to volunteer for almost all the field trips...I used to volunteer for almost all the field trips, this last year I haven't gone on any. To place the blame on teachers when things happen due to TEENAGERS breaking rules is unrealistic and unfair. I remember my teen years VERY WELL, and there is NO WAY that teachers and chaperones can prevent kids breaking rules and doing something stupid and unsafe 24/7, no matter how vigilant and conscientious they are. Most teems NEVER think of consequences; they are extremely impulsive and teen group dynamics usually push them into more risky and furtive behaviors than they would attempt alone. I went to a parochial ALL GIRLS school, the nuns had GOD to back them up. Yet some of the things we did then make me cringe and think "but for the grace of God" we didn't get badly hurt whenever I think back. And my friends and I were valedictorians, athletes, top musicians, student government types who seemed matured and thoughtful, squeaky clean and obedient; and so we were, but not always.<br /><br />Can't help but think those who believe their kids can be protected completely on field trips if the teachers follow all the rules have forgotten completely their teen years.<br />As I'm only a parent and still not willing to take the risk of chaperoning and being blamed, I think all teachers should refuse to take kids on field trips unless they aren't blame for kids' behavior when they're away from home and are in a gaggle of self absorbed, inexperienced and impulsive teens.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66004009364100140152015-06-07T10:52:35.944-07:002015-06-07T10:52:35.944-07:00The district isn't going to release a report o...The district isn't going to release a report on their reasons for firing a teacher. If you're waiting for that, there will be no discussion. Are you willing to assume the teacher was treated fairly? Lynnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-58208420352736262462015-06-06T13:52:12.947-07:002015-06-06T13:52:12.947-07:00Because unless someone commenting here has the rep...Because unless someone commenting here has the report right in front of them, it's premature for anyone to discuss what happened. I could say what I believe I know happened, but I was not there and do not have a copy of the report. It's possible the info I have been given by people who were there was not the whole story. It would be irresponsible to put what I have heard out there publicly as fact. GarfieldMomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-16782793215254907362015-06-06T10:59:08.143-07:002015-06-06T10:59:08.143-07:00If the district has decided to terminate Ms. Burto...If the district has decided to terminate Ms. Burton's employment, their investigation must be complete. Why is this not the time to discuss what happened?<br /><br />Garfield ParentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-49933679082910203952015-06-06T08:08:48.383-07:002015-06-06T08:08:48.383-07:00WSDWG has said too much without saying enough. Ple...WSDWG has said too much without saying enough. Please don't speculate or judge based on that cryptic info. There's no way to answer your questions, HF, without getting into things that should not be publicly discussed right now. GarfieldMomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74052443571089517082015-06-06T07:27:49.184-07:002015-06-06T07:27:49.184-07:00Wait a second, WSDWG. So you're saying teacher...Wait a second, WSDWG. So you're saying teachers should be allowed to drink while they're chaperoning, because after all, they are adults? I suppose it's ok if they drink at school, too? Or is it only the chaperones who are allowed to drink, since they are volunteers? The chaperone guidelines clearly say otherwise, and it seems 100% reasonable to expect those charged with providing oversight of our kids to abstain for a couple days. Any teacher on a f/t should also know that the volunteer chaperones should not drink--and if they are all out to dinner and the chaps start ordering drinks, the teacher should tell them they aren't supposed to. Now if some chaperones are drinking behind the teacher's back, or if the teacher tries to stop them but they drink anyway, that's another story. I can't tell from your scenario which applies. <br /><br />I'm also curious about that "known weird student" reference. That seems to imply that since this student was considered more likely to be a problem, nobody should be surprised--or blamed--when it comes to pass. However, if you know you have a student more likely to cause trouble, why wouldn't you watch that much closer? Your excuse makes no sense. <br /><br /><i>So teachers are now strictly liable for anything that happens on a field trip, whether they had the power or opportunity to prevent it, or not.</i><br /><br />So are you saying the teacher in such a case had no way to prevent the trouble? Efforts to not drink and/or deter other chaperones from drinking might have helped. Keeping a closer eye on potential trouble makers might also have helped. If teachers are truly powerless to help keep kids safe on trips--and I'm not saying "ensure" their safety, but rather simply ensuring that reasonable precautions are taken to help keep them safe--they they have no business taking kids on trips. <br /><br />HFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-66410767635659900042015-06-05T22:16:57.247-07:002015-06-05T22:16:57.247-07:00Adult chaperones drinking in New Orleans, and a kn...Adult chaperones drinking in New Orleans, and a known weird student attempts something offensive against another student while outside the view of the teacher or chaperones, and it's the teacher that gets fired. So teachers are now strictly liable for anything that happens on a field trip, whether they had the power or opportunity to prevent it, or not. If a brick falls on a kid's head, fire the teacher. Sound ridiculous? That's where we are. Brilliant. <br /><br />WSDWGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-65367513916061943792015-06-05T15:28:34.844-07:002015-06-05T15:28:34.844-07:00I'd be curious to hear what people on this blo...<i>I'd be curious to hear what people on this blog think is an offense commensurate with losing a job and completely upending one's life. This situation in no way merits something this severe. Not even close, especially considering all of the other egregious policy violations of this District.</i><br /><br />Interesting way of putting things.<br /><br />Whether or not losing one's job completely upends one's life isn't really an issue for me. There are lines that shouldn't be crossed, and safety precautions that should not be ignored, and if a teacher is willing to do either they probably shouldn't be responsible for our kids. Fireable offenses, in my book, include threatening or assaulting a student, sexual harassment/abuse, deliberately placing children in danger, or failing to take reasonable/expected precautions to keep children safe. We can argue about what are "reasonable precautions," but I assume there are rules in place to help clarify what is expected. Not fulfilling those expected duties, when others have entrusted their children to you, is a reasonable cause for termination. <br /><br />The district's unfortunate unevenness in enforcing policy violations by others is also not an issue for me. As they say, "two wrongs don't make a right." It sucks to be one of those caught up the district's sudden and unexpected policy enforcement efforts, though--and it'll be a shame to watch these efforts not apply similarly to high level staff, as will likely be the case. <br /><br />The real issue is whether or not this particular action merits this particular level of discipline. Many of those apparently "in the know" seem to think it does not, in which case I hope if this teacher has cause to sue for wrongful termination, she does so.<br /><br />HFAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79670780736611663902015-06-05T13:02:06.026-07:002015-06-05T13:02:06.026-07:00I'd be curious to hear what people on this blo...I'd be curious to hear what people on this blog think is an offense commensurate with losing a job and completely upending one's life. This situation in no way merits something this severe. Not even close, especially considering all of the other egregious policy violations of this District.<br /><br />- Trust MeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-42493785808685516482015-06-05T12:30:52.362-07:002015-06-05T12:30:52.362-07:00another perspective, thank you for the reminder th...another perspective, thank you for the reminder that those of us who have had very positive experiences with this teacher and who have seen the powerful impact of her teaching on our kids and other students we know can get a little myopic. I don't mean to imply she is perfect or that all students love her. I'm sorry that your child has had a more difficult time with her. Know that at least one other choir parent is open to hearing about your experiences, if you ever want a sympathetic ear.GarfieldMomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-69458746832974076162015-06-05T12:10:43.823-07:002015-06-05T12:10:43.823-07:00Those who are saying this teacher was so wonderful...Those who are saying this teacher was so wonderful are speaking from their experiences only. If your kid was part of the group she liked, I could totally see how that would be your impression. But, I will say that wasn't everyone's experience. Neither me nor my kid are in the writing to her later with tears streaming down our faces contingent. <br /><br />I am, however, in the group that thinks it sucks how things went down. <br /><br />- another perspective Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14043607691443499832015-06-05T10:37:00.083-07:002015-06-05T10:37:00.083-07:00It's funny that a teacher is being fired for o...It's funny that a teacher is being fired for one breach of district policy, when IDEA, federal law, is violated every day in this district with complete impunity. <br /><br />-2e parentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31574574978180923312015-06-05T10:29:12.226-07:002015-06-05T10:29:12.226-07:00Agree 100% with Trust Me. If you knew what those o...Agree 100% with Trust Me. If you knew what those of us who've been privy to the details know, you would agree too. It's unbelievable to me that they would fire an outstanding teacher over this, especially when a major cause of the incident that happened was the fault of the district failing to follow their own procedures. Discipline her, yes. But we're talking about one of those teachers students remember their whole lives, the ones who inspire them to be a positive influence in the world, the teacher kids stay in touch with and thank years later with tears running down their faces when they succeed at something they tried because that teacher taught them courage and perseverance and the value of hard work. She gives 200% to the students, which for some kids is 200% more than anyone has ever given them. <br /><br />To ruin her career, destroy the entire program, devastate the students, and ultimately deliver a giant FU to the school, probably in retaliation for the fact that Garfield has been a thorn in the district's side (MAP protest, walkouts, winning the fight over keeping the Latin teacher, SBAC opt-outs, etc.), is unconscionable. Just another example of the CYA, students last attitude of central admin. I am disgusted.GarfieldMomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-14700896489668652362015-06-05T09:16:53.786-07:002015-06-05T09:16:53.786-07:00Dear Half Full,
The reason I believe the firing is...Dear Half Full,<br />The reason I believe the firing is a bad idea is because I think SPS is using breaking a rule or two as an excuse to fire in response to an incident that may not have been preventable no matter how many "t"s were crossed and how many "i"s were dotted. I think they are over-reacting and trying to throw the baby out with the bath water. It is not just because I like her, but because of her amazing ability to teach students and inspire them to do their best beyond any ideas they may have had about what they could achieve. I believe their fantastic experiences in choir will serve them well in whatever they do, giving them confidence, experience working closely with people from different backgrounds, making friends with them, and did I say, beautiful beautiful music. Almost three months with no choir instruction.<br />GHSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-83989968077384986462015-06-05T09:16:08.349-07:002015-06-05T09:16:08.349-07:00@Half Full -
The answer to your question is that ...@Half Full -<br /><br />The answer to your question is that the alleged offense is not remotely close to what an independent observer would consider serious enough for termination. The punishment is clearly meant to punish Garfield and probably also cover what was a huge mistake by someone in District HQ. I can't go into specifics in this public forum, but this should is not a career ruining offense by this outstanding teacher.<br /><br />- Trust MeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-9054838343443533462015-06-05T08:58:02.384-07:002015-06-05T08:58:02.384-07:00Is the GHS choir teacher firing a bad decision bec...Is the GHS choir teacher firing a bad decision because people like this particular teacher, or because the alleged offense was not that serious? Without knowing details of what happened, it's hard to either support or denounce the district's response. Just saying it "wasn't as bad a past incidents at GHS, and THOSE didn't lead to termination..." isn't good enough. Do those of you supporting the teacher in this case have solid evidence that the teacher didn't in fact majorly screw up? <br /><br />Half FullAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75968680704462290812015-06-05T08:23:22.281-07:002015-06-05T08:23:22.281-07:00I agree with Trust Me I Know above. The choir teac...I agree with Trust Me I Know above. The choir teacher is outstanding, dedicated and brings out the best in her students. She helps blend together all different kinds of students to work together, sing beautifully, enjoy it, etc. Firing her is doing the wrong thing. Her punishment has already been taking place for almost three months. Enough is enough. The kids have been punished even possibly more, if you calculate class time by the number of students who have not received instruction. We want the teacher back teaching choir at Garfield. <br />GHSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-70547763717830167082015-06-05T08:19:27.712-07:002015-06-05T08:19:27.712-07:00Reposting for Trust Me I Know--(only two word moni...Reposting for Trust Me I Know--(only two word moniker allowed)<br /><br />As a person relatively familiar with the situation at Garfield, I can say unequivocally that no one is being served by the reported firing of the choir teacher. She is outstanding and dedicated, and probably the most responsible party in this whole affair.<br /><br />Apparently the District feels it needs to have a head to roll, even though in this case it makes no sense whatsoever. <br />Trust Me<br />GHSmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45923872345475996332015-06-05T07:51:22.464-07:002015-06-05T07:51:22.464-07:00As a person relatively familiar with the situation...As a person relatively familiar with the situation at Garfield, I can say unequivocally that no one is being served by the reported firing of the choir teacher. She is outstanding and dedicated, and probably the most responsible party in this whole affair.<br /><br />Apparently the District feels it needs to have a head to roll, even though in this case it makes no sense whatsoever. <br /><br />- Trust Me I KnowAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-27040105687780263322015-06-05T07:40:58.817-07:002015-06-05T07:40:58.817-07:00The choir director at Garfield has received her le...The choir director at Garfield has received her letter of termination.<br />GHS supporterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40570902544006130912015-06-05T06:14:32.628-07:002015-06-05T06:14:32.628-07:00Dear Learned Cynic,
Even with the stories you have...Dear Learned Cynic,<br />Even with the stories you have heard from your children, or from your conversations with students, I still think your comment is painting with a broad brush that disparages whatever school you are speaking about. The actual numbers and usage may not be the same as the stories you have gleaned. I don't think it is fair to the other students who don't use substances to say it in a general way as if it is normalized. I do realize the point of what you are saying that some kids aren't "better" than other kids, but let's remember that most kids who are doing well in school are making good choices on a daily basis. There is an impact when people assume others are making the bad choices. There are posters in counseling offices and ad campaigns that try to influence by saying "most" kids don't do "that". Even in general talk with friends I think it is not for stories to say that a lot of kids do something, or that most kids do something because when the subject comes up within their family, it normalizes the behavior. just my opinion.<br />NEmomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-4042054159363296612015-06-05T01:45:03.896-07:002015-06-05T01:45:03.896-07:00NEmom
My source of info on the use of pot among or...NEmom<br />My source of info on the use of pot among orchestra students comes from my kids, their many friends in orchestra (yes, I have spoken directly with those students), the parents of students in orchestra, the leaders of the orchestra booster club, etc. I am very involved at the school, I'm there probably at least twice a week year-round. You get to know things. Ask around at the school -- any school -- and kids/teachers/parents will tell you who does what. People want to believe that kids who do something like orchestra are somehow more wholesome than other kids, when the truth is no group is immune to the reality of being a teenager today. By the way, I'm not trying to say orchestra kids are any worse than any other group, I just found it naive to think they (or an "A" jazz band, for that matter) are "the right kids" to take on an overnight trip vs. any other group. <br /><br />GHS student<br />I have utmost sympathy for you and the other students who have had a difficult semester following your trip and the loss of your teacher. I'm sure there are much better ways the district could be handling it, they are not known for putting students and learning ahead of bureaucracy and covering their own asses. But regardless of WHAT happened on the trip or how the district has handled it, I hope you and your classmates understand that ultimately your teacher and chaperones did not follow district field trip rules and that is why they -- and you -- are suffering the consequences.<br /><br />As for the gloom and doom, I don't actually believe this will result in the end of overnight field trips if teachers are still willing to do them. Parents and others in Seattle will not just accept that incredibly talented STEM students, performing artists, athletes, etc. will be forever cut off from participation in enriching experiences and competitions. But then again, I'm an idealist at heart, despite my moniker. Learned Cynicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87456628999804375962015-06-04T22:10:54.667-07:002015-06-04T22:10:54.667-07:00Whoops- still not clear. By saying it "wasn&#...Whoops- still not clear. By saying it "wasn't the issue" I mean that it didn't happen. Sorry, I'm tired.<br /><br />ghs studentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-39254692882996022122015-06-04T22:07:31.928-07:002015-06-04T22:07:31.928-07:00Rita- Sorry I wasn't clear. Student drinking/d...Rita- Sorry I wasn't clear. Student drinking/drug use WAS NOT the issue that caused the teacher to be placed on administrative leave from the New Orleans trip this spring. 2 years ago the sexual assault was a different incident, and as far as I know you are right that they weren't disciplined.<br /><br />ghs studentAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com