tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post524046595135155096..comments2024-03-28T02:21:17.452-07:00Comments on Seattle Schools Community Forum: Teacher Pay Cut 1.9%Melissa Westbrookhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17179994245880629080noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-41875582982619126532011-05-27T10:26:40.668-07:002011-05-27T10:26:40.668-07:00The problem isn't with MAP - or any of the sta...The problem isn't with MAP - or any of the standardized assessments. The problem is in the people who mis-use the results.<br /><br />MAP scores do not provide answers; they are intended to provoke questions. They are indicative, not conclusive.<br /><br />MAP is intended for use as a formative assessment, as a tool to help teachers tailor instruction for individual students. A teacher who knows the student and is familiar with the student's work can review the result and it will either help to confirm or challenge the teacher's already formed opinion of the student's knowledge and skills, and the gaps in their knowledge and skills. The teacher should respond appropriately by shaping that student's instruction to address the gaps.<br /><br />The principal should use the MAP data as the launching point for questions: "The MAP results suggest that you have six students in your class who are working below grade level; what are you doing for them?" The teacher can then answer that only four of the students are actually working below grade level and go on to describe the specific steps taken to support the students.<br /><br />Likewise, the Executive Director of Schools should be using the data to prompt questions for the principals such as "The MAP results suggest that you have ten students in the third grade who are working below grade level; what are you doing for them?"<br /><br />I cannot repeat this enough: people should use the data to prompt questions, not to provide answers. The assessment is not necessarily bad. What is bad is the mis-use of the results.Charlie Mashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17173903762962067277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-77668063549465647412011-05-26T21:01:24.103-07:002011-05-26T21:01:24.103-07:00Thank You, MAPsucks!
My sentiments exactly. And,...Thank You, MAPsucks!<br /><br />My sentiments exactly. And, yes I'm making it known to the higher ups.<br /><br />- Livin' the Map LifeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-56788996387358723152011-05-26T20:42:32.150-07:002011-05-26T20:42:32.150-07:00F*ck MAP! Use REAL assessments and let the princi...F*ck MAP! Use REAL assessments and let the principal and Exec Dir know that you do NOT believe MAP is reflective of your child's abilities. The test is crap.MAPsuckshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10043019493554551794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-35367154785850441862011-05-26T18:50:50.502-07:002011-05-26T18:50:50.502-07:00"Class" Warfare,
You are absolutely rig..."Class" Warfare,<br /><br />You are absolutely right on.<br /><br />It is already happening to my youngest daughter in 1st grade.<br /><br />Classwork is at grade level, but MAP scores are horrible. After the very first MAP test in the Fall her teacher started to advocate to put her on an IEP.<br /><br />Even after a school specialist tested my daughter 1:1 and confirmed her work was at grade level the struggle continues as the MAP scores are still low.<br /><br />- Livin' the MAP lifeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-79830800054009352932011-05-26T17:48:26.654-07:002011-05-26T17:48:26.654-07:00Wow, Jan! Thank you for giving me perspective. I...Wow, Jan! Thank you for giving me perspective. If only we could have proceeded on a productive path, without all this ed reform BS mucking things up for us...mirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-28667743996184672282011-05-26T16:21:28.378-07:002011-05-26T16:21:28.378-07:00a reader. I think I agree with everything in your...a reader. I think I agree with everything in your reply (I confess to having read faster than your response merited, and will try to reread later when I have more time. <br /><br />As for how we got here, I am not entirely sure. 2 years ago, the District and the union embarked on a process to improve teacher evaluations (I think it was sort of thumbs up/thumbs down -- and that lacked some nuance to tell teachers who weren't totally awol that they needed to improve (and maybe where). And then it all was washed over when ed reform came in with standardized testing, incentive pay, RttT, etc. <br /><br />I think you are right about how we got "here" though -- and much of it involves weak principals (and a strong enough union that the weakness resulted in retention in a few cases of bad apples -- who then became notorious and spawned the myth of lazy teachers who need to be fired.) When you think about it, one or two tired out, rigid teachers who needed to have found something else to do, multiplied over 150 to 200 kids per day (I am thinking high school), over several years -- well, there are a LOT of stories about bad teaching. And that is just ONE teacher (never mind the 50 or 60 OTHER teachers in the same school, working hard and teaching somewhere between adequately and fabulous). And -- there are MANY MANY cases where a teacher who is good for one kid, is not good at all for another.<br /><br />I wish we could go BACK to the District/Union proposal -- and then start really drilling down on mentoring, goal setting within schools to achieve certain results, etc. What could we do if the Executive Directors were real leaders, with real experience in education, who could help principals organize their schools into teams where there was team teaching, feedback, mentoring, and constant analysis by teachers regarding what was working, and what was not, for specific students. <br /><br />I feel like there is so much to do -- and we have spent most of the last (however many years MGJ was Superintendent) spending lots of money, doing virtually NONE of the work that needed to be done, and actually going backwards (science alignment, etc.) in some cases.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-20753972279669554742011-05-26T10:27:34.131-07:002011-05-26T10:27:34.131-07:00As this relates to teacher evaluation - if the MAP...As this relates to teacher evaluation - if the MAP score is not accurate past a certain level, then wouldn't it follow that growth calculations based on high scores may not be accurate either?thinking out loudnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-87403528403134182192011-05-26T10:15:54.720-07:002011-05-26T10:15:54.720-07:00My post just evaporated, but the short of it was:
...My post just evaporated, but the short of it was:<br /><br />A <b>reading RIT score of 245</b> seems to be the ceiling. Some elementary students can approach/hit/exceed that score. NWEA claims there is no ceiling because <i>most</i> 10th graders "receive an accurate measure of their score," (meaning they are at or below 245). <br /><br /><i>In reading, the RIT scale measures with relative accuracy up to about 245. This represents the 93rd percentile at grade 10, and the 95th percentile at grade 8. If a student scores above we know that student performed high but may not be able to accurately assess how high they performed.</i> <br /><br />http://www.nwea.org/support/article/532/rit-scale<br /><br />For more info:<br /><br />http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/100266/1.html<br /><br />curious readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-40722524166306202292011-05-26T09:33:13.218-07:002011-05-26T09:33:13.218-07:00From NWEA:
A ceiling effect exists when an asses...From NWEA: <br /><br /><i>A ceiling effect exists when an assessment does not have sufficient range to accurately measure students at the highest performance levels. It has nothing to do with the actual numbers attached to the scale and everything to do with the position of students on it. For example, in reading, the RIT scale measures with relative accuracy up to about 245. This represents the 93rd percentile at grade 10, and the 95th percentile at grade 8. If a student scores above we know that student performed high but may not be able to accurately assess how high they performed. Relative to other tests, therefore, there is very little true ceiling effect in this assessment. Even most high performing 10th graders receive a technically accurate measure of their skill.</i><br /><br />http://www.nwea.org/support/article/532/rit-scale<br /><br />NWEA claims there is no ceiling because <i>most</i> 10th graders will receive a technically accurate measure of their skill. My interpretation: If the reading RIT score is over 245, you're high performing - they just can't tell you much beyond that. This seems like a ceiling for advanced learners if they're hitting the 245 mark in elementary school.<br /><br />For more discussion, I would suggest this site:<br /><br />http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/100266/1.html<br /><br />curious readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-61057061694436687422011-05-26T08:47:56.235-07:002011-05-26T08:47:56.235-07:00High school teachers teach subjects that aren'...High school teachers teach subjects that aren't/can't be tested by current standardized tests.<br /><br />The MAJORITY of hs teachers do not teach reading or math.<br /><br />The current model used by SPS exempts MOST high school teachers from test based evaluations.<br /><br />Explain to me how that is fair.Salandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-31504820442910689272011-05-26T08:22:08.388-07:002011-05-26T08:22:08.388-07:00Question on the state budget that Dorothy or Meg c...Question on the state budget that Dorothy or Meg can answer (maybe):<br /><br />How does the final budget compare to the projections and assumptions in the district budget planning process? I recall Harmon had a contingency of $$$Ms for a "wait and see". Now that we know, can some of that money be reallocated?<br /><br />WV: The legislature said have a Merry Grismasmirmac1https://www.blogger.com/profile/10183460709639638172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-84160665108798796462011-05-26T08:19:59.057-07:002011-05-26T08:19:59.057-07:00From another forum discussing the differences betw...From another forum discussing the differences between the two levels, 2-5 and 6+:<br /><br /><i>The other question was whether a 259 on the survey w/ goals 2-5 would be equivalent to a 259 on the 6+. The NWEA rep said it is and it isn't lol. The 6+ test is harder so you might not get a large gain when going from the 2-5 to the 6+.</i><br /><br /><i>She has spoken w/ NWEA and supposedly they have about the same ceiling but the 6+ is a bit higher yet the RIT scale is continuous. The NWEA Rep did mention that kids might not sure[show] a years growth going from the 2-5 to the 6+ due to the 6+ being a bit more difficult. THe 6+ will flesh out holes more b/c will pinpoint their level quicker and have more questions to pinpoint holes.</i><br /><br />curious readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74580307040658868342011-05-25T22:40:40.031-07:002011-05-25T22:40:40.031-07:00How do you know there's a different test for e...<em>How do you know there's a different test for elementary students (besides the test for young K-2 elementary students)? </em><br /><br />I've seen it all over the place, from the NWEA website and also from various school districts' handouts. The names of the tests are in the form "Reading Survey w/Goals 2-5" and "Reading Survey w/Goals 6+"; just Google them.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-74302212971231098692011-05-25T21:49:17.324-07:002011-05-25T21:49:17.324-07:00Pay cut? That's merely a shot across the bow o...Pay cut? That's merely a shot across the bow of recalcitrant teachers who reject test-based pay and privatization. Sick, short-sighted, gutless bullying by pols and billionaires.<br /><br />Teacher response to test-based pay..."if your kid brings down my test scores I don't want him/her in my class."<br /><br />Struggling students are soon to become a threat to a teacher's financial security. Watch how quickly struggling Johnny gets labeled SpEd (even if he is not)."Class" Warfarenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-75077896095654111502011-05-25T19:04:58.421-07:002011-05-25T19:04:58.421-07:00Jan,
Thank you for your response. I don't sup...Jan,<br /><br />Thank you for your response. I don't support using MAP testing or even MSP as a good way to evaluate teachers. But we do test our kids all the time. How do we measure what students learn? We use their oral responses, papers, projects, tests, and quizzes to evaluate them. Why not in the beginning of the year, have teachers do an assessment test of their students to see where they are (a pre-test of the coursework, if you wil). Some teachers do this already to see where kids are to get a baseline idea of abilities/knowledge/needs. At the end of the semester or year, give a post-test. See how kids do. <br /><br />The results will be kid dependent. The BIG human factor. There will be some kids who will not do well regardless of what a teacher may do, but you will have others who will. It is not a perfect system which is why the union should negotiate and set parameter on how it will be used and what weight it should carry as part of an evaluation. <br /><br />I like to think that principals would be a better evaluator. However, with all the prinicpal churn we have witnessed, not to mention, sadly, the quality of some of our new principals with limited teaching experience, it makes me want a quantifiable way for a teacher to counter/balance the "human factor" there.<br /><br />Having gone through many performance evaluations myself, much depends on the goals you are setting and the support you have to make your job successful. I think the burden of this lies in the administration. In the end, the evaluation of teachers is just as much an evaluation of the administration. How well do they support classroom teachers to make sure they succeed. None of this is my original thought. Much I have to attribute to my teacher mom and her retired buddies.<br /><br />I will admit to you there is no easy answer here. <br /><br />Finally, I have to ask how did we get here for SPS. Do we not have employee performance eval in place to begin with ? Does it not work? Why not? <br /><br />-a readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-47597940431790035802011-05-25T18:40:13.908-07:002011-05-25T18:40:13.908-07:00Boy, real live discussion. I live for this stuff....Boy, real live discussion. I live for this stuff.Melissa Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12588239576000641336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-38413043057579503032011-05-25T16:02:12.929-07:002011-05-25T16:02:12.929-07:00Cont'd:
That is not to say that in a "fa...Cont'd:<br /><br />That is not to say that in a "fair" evaluation system, a principal cannot take into account complaints, year after year, from the teachers one grade up, that Mr Y's kids are unprepared for their curriculum, and have to be taught or retaught stuff, whereas Mr P's kids generally are ready to go. But a principal (a good one) is the person who would know if Mr. Y is the guy, year after year, who takes more than his fair share of the autism spectrum kids, the english language learner kids, etc., and the kids 3 grades below level, and keeps them engaged, learning, and catching up -- where as Mr. P's more authoritarian style makes him a less than great match for many of those kids -- but the Kumon moms all love him and want their kids in his class. Or the principal may also be the person who knows that this year, ALL of the ALO kids -- except one -- happened to end up in Mr. P's class -- and frankly, much of the regular curriculum was stuff they already knew. <br />And the principal is the person who will know if the boundaries of the attendance area moved last year to incorporate the lakefront, leading to a huge boost in student achievement for all teachers that is completely demographic, and not classroom related.<br /><br />It isn't that student learning doesn't matter in evaluating effective teaching. It is that the evaluations have to take into account stuff that NO test could measure (plus the fact that the test may not measure learning progress). <br /><br />The ed reform argument is based on a false assumption: if teachers teach "effectively," their students will have measurably higher scores on high stakes district wide tests than the students of ineffective teachers.<br /><br />Nothing I have read indicates that assumption is true. The same thing is true, by the way, of the idea of extra teacher pay based on test performance. Not only are the tests not valid -- there is no evidence that it improves teaching or teacher satisfaction, AND -- once again -- there is credible research suggesting it does NOT work as an incentive to improve either one.<br /><br />If I were a better poster, I would have the cites, but I don't have time right now. Melissa (and Dorothy, and others) would do much better -- but both of the studies are ones that have been discussed on this blog.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-55964854509157513312011-05-25T16:01:51.415-07:002011-05-25T16:01:51.415-07:00To "a reader" --
I think your general ...To "a reader" -- <br /><br />I think your general position is very valid. It would do wonders for the union if the public perceived (and the perception was true, and not just based on PR spin) that they go to bat for the best interests of students and education. Whatever their real motives, they often come off looking self-serving and protectionist. But they would have to mean it. I (and many others) have had it with the ed reform disinformation "say it often enough and people will think it is true" campaigns. If that is how unions come across, if they just adopt the same slimy tactics the ed reformers use, they will lose further support.<br /><br />And on that testing thing? You asked: Why not negotiate student testing to be part (15-20%) of teacher evaluation? NY state is doing that. The union should BE part of that discussion and regain control as to how it should be implemented.<br /><br />I think it is a bad idea because not only has it never been shown to have any merit -- it has actually been shown to NOT have merit (a high percentage of teachers whose kids do well on a high stakes test this year consistently not do well the following year). I have seen NOTHING to suggest that the testing data correlates in any way with the quality of learning, much less the quality of teaching (this last is what we are measuring, right, since it is what the teacher does?) I have read so many articles saying -- the union just "complains" that there is no valid student test that measures teacher-- as though that was some sort of slimy dodge -- when in fact it is true. <br /><br />How would I like it if my boss said "this year, everyone whose birthday falls on a day starting with S gets a 5% raise, those with T birthdays get 5% docked, and will be placed on a PIP that I devise for them (hope they have better luck with days of the week next year!), and the MWF birthdays stay where they are. Random? Yes. So is tying teacher retention/performance to high stakes tests. There is no proven correlation, and there is evidence that no correlation exists. So saying it is only X percent of the evaluation is worthless (only 20% of my evaluation depends on what day of the week my birthday falls on this year? That should make me happy?). Until they can come up with a test that works (I happen to think maybe they can't), a tight link between student test scores and teacher pay/retention is just unwarranted. <br /><br />cont'dJanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-18045069701376378232011-05-25T15:29:26.410-07:002011-05-25T15:29:26.410-07:00I agree with Sahila and others that we really don&...I agree with Sahila and others that we really don't want to get into arguments (substantive ones, at least) as to who is worse off, whose job is more undervalued, who even HAS a job. This is like playing Queen for a Day (where you compete for refrigerators and patio furniture with other people whose lives suck, and the audience gets to vote for the one they pity most). The ONLY value to this argument is to realize, when these issues come up, that these sentiments are "out there" (hard to get a 61 year old who has been unemployed for the last 3 years now, and can find NO work, NOTHING, to feel sorry for a teacher pay cut -- not because teachers don't deserve their current pay, or because the 61 year old is evil - these are just hard times for MANY voters, and savvy, strategically thinking public entities have to take that into account in their communications with taxpayers.) <br /><br />We have to get this right. This is a dreadful budget season, and horrible cuts are inevitable. I have no desire to squabble over what we can't fix NOW (the 1.9% cuts, and their merit). What I DO want to do, though, is figure out how to work on what we can -- the grossly flawed budget process in SSD that once again, has allowed layers and layers of admin lard to remain, hidden now as "teaching" expenses, etc (see Meg's post from earlier this week), the unbelievable costs we are paying to tie teacher retention to test results (it is NOT just the HSPE, the MSP, and MAP 3 times a year -- all of which are involved). It is also curriculum standardization (hard to tie performance to the test if not everyone is teaching the same stuff) and it now looks like it may be infecting things like "walk to math" (which -- fancy this -- actually puts kids at the level they need to be at to learn best) because if someone else is teaching them, then how can we hold teacher X accountable. We are totally remaking the actual learning environment -- all to support the idea of tying teacher retention and salaries to tests, which is an unproven concept.<br /><br />I want to work for the following:<br />1. Four new SSD directors, none of whom have any stars, not a single star, in their eyes with respect to "free" ed reform money, advice, etc., and who will at least prioritize and start to tackle Charlie's list of problems. <br />2. A budget process where the Board gives much more direction to the Superintendent about what percent of funds goes to central, -- and what bogus categories may NOT be used to hide fat. I want the 6% (administration expense) to be a real number -- not bullshit.<br />3. The Families and Education Levy.<br />4. A fix to the currently broken SPED model.<br />5. A return of interventions for struggling students. <br /><br />This is only a partial list, but it will do for now.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09923777229601243321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-45148019126337909892011-05-25T15:24:09.943-07:002011-05-25T15:24:09.943-07:00From the NWEA norms, 85% for 11th grade would be a...From the NWEA norms, 85% for 11th grade would be a RIT score of 240. A 95% for 11th grade would be a RIT score of 245. <br /><br />It doesn't seem like a big leap to go from a RIT score of 240 to 245...so where is the room for growth?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-7117684166175338862011-05-25T14:58:00.413-07:002011-05-25T14:58:00.413-07:00The PR from the district about MAP is that it'...The PR from the district about MAP is that it's adaptable and doesn't have the ceiling effect that some other tests have - so, they're arguing that the reults <i>are</i> meaningful, comparatively. <br /><br />Seeing the results posted, it's hard to take the results seriously, and doesn't seem like a valid measure of teacher quality.<br /><br />How do you know there's a different test for elementary students (besides the test for young K-2 elementary students)? And wouldn't that make the test less valid for advanced learners, or are they administered a different version of the test? But that would make their scores not comparable...<br /> <br />Previous threads on the topic were saying a second grader had a question about the symbolism of the rose in the Scarlet Letter, so that makes me think there is not a separate test for elementary kids.Confused about MAPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-81400876212023689452011-05-25T14:28:54.773-07:002011-05-25T14:28:54.773-07:00Reader,
Sometimes it seems common sense has disapp...Reader,<br />Sometimes it seems common sense has disappeared from this blog and then you come along. That is exactly what I was trying to covey and look at the reaction! I agree with your words 100% and I hope the unions will take it for what it is, constructive criticism. Maybe the SEA needs to hire Strategy360 for PR work(kidding).Share the blamenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-22454208749547459142011-05-25T14:16:44.168-07:002011-05-25T14:16:44.168-07:00Salander, as long as you keep pushing people away,...Salander, as long as you keep pushing people away, you will loose the PR war. You have to think strategy. Lokk at Gov. Walker's push at public sector union in Wisconsin. Check it out. Did he propose similar cuts and limit collective bargaining with fire and police unions. Why not? ( Many firefighters and police did not fall for the Governor's divide and conquer tactics.)<br /><br />I am not arguing the pros and cons of union. But I do believe unions need to respond to the negatives out there. For a union to survive, it need to be smarter, flexible, and more nimble. <br /><br />Unions don't have the Koch, the Broad, the Gates to help spread their message. <br /><br />-A readerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-57275980695514494802011-05-25T13:31:50.239-07:002011-05-25T13:31:50.239-07:00The end-of-year reading test placed our elementary...<em>The end-of-year reading test placed our elementary child at the 85% range for 11th graders. There's not much room for growth over the next few years.</em><br /><br />The elementary MAP is not the same as the one for grades 6 and up, and doesn't actually have that much higher-level stuff on it, so those very high grade-level-equivalent scores are not terribly meaningful. (GLE scores range from downright meaningless to very mildly useful, depending on how the testing instrument is designed.) Basically s/he's outgrown that test, is what it comes down to. S/he MAY find more headroom on the 6+ test.<br /><br />Helen Schinskehschinskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10316478950862562594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28765366.post-26207906205234709762011-05-25T12:51:27.114-07:002011-05-25T12:51:27.114-07:00Anonymous said...
Teacher unions are loosing the ...Anonymous said... <br />Teacher unions are loosing the PR war. Just take a look at what is being printed in the media. Compare to what is being written about police/firefighter unions and their pay/pension vs. teacher unions AND the public response to the articles.<br /><br />And who is writing these things? And who is responding to this propaganda. People like you. <br /><br />Unfortunately ignorance is not painful.Salandernoreply@blogger.com